Mass shooting in Southern Texas Church

[Danoff]

The permit makes it legal to own the gun as a regular person.

Join a gun club, shoot a 5mm for a year and attend the club for a minimum amount of times to keep your membership valid and as long as you're healthy in your head and don't have a criminal record you can get pretty much any non-auto weapon money can buy.

Edit.

somewhat related but pointless information:

A legal registered Magnum .357 revolver can be bought for roughly €200.
A unregistered .45 will set you back roughly €750-1000, depending on how many actually made it through customs.

@PocketZeven, this is legal gun ownership. We have background checks and waiting periods in the US as well. It's not as onerous as the process above, but it's not like "legal" means "no process". Our process for owning an automatic weapon is more onerous than the process above, which is why almost nobody does.

 

[Dennisch]

What's there to fear from someone who has his guns locked in a safe, and only takes his guns to ranges in cases?

This is exactly what happens with pretty much all the legal guns in the Netherlands. Stored in a safe, bullets go in a separate one, carried in a case to the range, holes are made, and back to home they go.

You Euro nutjobs are crazy.

We don't force you to watch our porno.

 

[Blood Eagle]

Why do you own a gun? And why would you not sell/destroy your gun for the sake of safety?

I know this question isn't directed at me but I realize the importance of having something that could potentially save my life from past experiences where I was damn glad I did. It's also my right as a free citizen. I couldn't legally drink at 18 so that kind of sucks. I did anyway though. Alcohol laws don't prevent militant American teenagers from abiding by laws that already exist.

 

[Famine]

I’m happy here where there are no guns to fear from.

Uh-huh.

 

[Dennisch]

Uh-huh.

Done with legal weapons, non-auto btw. That was the case that made it somewhat harder, for about a year, to get a permit.

And here, have some numbers.

41% of the murder victims in the period 2012-2016 were poisoned by lead.

 

[Jump_Ace]

Both my wife and I have lived in the US (my wife returned this weekend from a 2.5 year job assignment in Miami), and we both love it there, but there's something very broken in the culture.

>13,000 people killed with guns in 2017 to date. 2,300 of those under the age of 17. 900 of those since the Vegas massacre. (numbers exclude suicides)

There seems to be no motivation to either control the spread of guns, or if not, to understand and try to fix the fundamental causes.

It's sad that such a developed society, with (supposedly) such a strong religious culture, places such a low value on human life.

Jerome

 

[PocketZeven]

The permit makes it legal to own the gun as a regular person.

Join a gun club, shoot a 5mm for a year and attend the club for a minimum amount of times to keep your membership valid and as long as you're healthy in your head and don't have a criminal record you can get pretty much any non-auto weapon money can buy.

Edit.

somewhat related but pointless information:

A legal registered Magnum .357 revolver can be bought for roughly €200.
A unregistered .45 will set you back roughly €750-1000, depending on how many actually made it through customs.

In retrospect I have chosen my words poorly by banning i did mean making guns illegal for the mass. As stated in my earlier post guns should only be sold or used by trained people (1 year gun club qualifies for that) and by extensive vetting (requirements for permit)

I am not against gun collecting or gun clubs by the way. I have been planning to apply myself to perhaps collect and shoot classic revolvers like a Remington 1858. But preferably cap and ball revolvers like colt army/navy.

My gripes are with the right to bear arms. It should be a privilege for the ones who qualify and are well trained and only for collecting/recreational use in private area’s. It should not be an over the counter item which some states in the us allow. With the main reasoning being for protection.

 

[Dennisch]

extensive vetting

Once you apply, you will see that extensive is quite a big word. When Alphen happened it was somewhat extensive, especially towards mental health but it has become quite laid back again.

And do you have any idea how easy it is to get hold of something like an AK47? The open borders work for fruit and veggies, but also for stuff a lot less healthy.

 

[PocketZeven]

Once you apply, you will see that extensive is quite a big word. When Alphen happened it was somewhat extensive, especially towards mental health but it has become quite laid back again.

And do you have any idea how easy it is to get hold of something like an AK47? The open borders work for fruit and veggies, but also for stuff a lot less healthy.

That is the illegal market. I am criticizing specifically the legality and lack of gun control in the US. Here in The Netherlands there is a lack of interest in gun ownership because it’s a different culture. In the US it just seems they promote gun ownership through fear and machoism.

 

[TetsuKobura]

Take a look at this if you want.

Some things you should take from this:
California - 1930 total murders - 37 by rifles - 280 by knives/cutting instruments - 89 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Texas - 1459 total murders - 51 by rifles - 175 by knives/cutting instruments - 82 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Illinois - 941 total murders - 14 by rifles - 61 by knives/cutting instruments - 19 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Pennsylvania - 655 total murders - 10 by rifles - 68 by knives/cutting instruments - 23 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Georgia - 646 total murders - 20 by rifles - 48 by knives/cutting instruments
New York - 628 total murders - 2 by rifles - 130 by knives / cutting instruments - 32 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.

tl;dr Rifles for a majority of this table cause the least amount of deaths when each type of weapon used for a murder is split up. Banning rifles won't solve anything.

It should be noted Florida was unfortunately left out of this Table, probably due to Pulse.

 

[Dennisch]

Alabama, 3 murders.

It's one big happy family down there.

 

[rono_thomas]

Delete

 

[PocketZeven]

Take a look at this if you want.

Some things you should take from this:
California - 1930 total murders - 37 by rifles - 280 by knives/cutting instruments - 89 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Texas - 1459 total murders - 51 by rifles - 175 by knives/cutting instruments - 82 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Illinois - 941 total murders - 14 by rifles - 61 by knives/cutting instruments - 19 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Pennsylvania - 655 total murders - 10 by rifles - 68 by knives/cutting instruments - 23 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Georgia - 646 total murders - 20 by rifles - 48 by knives/cutting instruments
New York - 628 total murders - 2 by rifles - 130 by knives / cutting instruments - 32 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.

tl;dr Rifles for a majority of this table cause the least amount of deaths when each type of weapon used for a murder is split up. Banning rifles won't solve anything.

It should be noted Florida was unfortunately left out of this Table, probably due to Pulse.

 

[Blood Eagle]

Take a look at this if you want.

Some things you should take from this:
California - 1930 total murders - 37 by rifles - 280 by knives/cutting instruments - 89 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Texas - 1459 total murders - 51 by rifles - 175 by knives/cutting instruments - 82 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Illinois - 941 total murders - 14 by rifles - 61 by knives/cutting instruments - 19 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Pennsylvania - 655 total murders - 10 by rifles - 68 by knives/cutting instruments - 23 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Georgia - 646 total murders - 20 by rifles - 48 by knives/cutting instruments
New York - 628 total murders - 2 by rifles - 130 by knives / cutting instruments - 32 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.

tl;dr Rifles for a majority of this table cause the least amount of deaths when each type of weapon used for a murder is split up. Banning rifles won't solve anything.

It should be noted Florida was unfortunately left out of this Table, probably due to Pulse.

Should also be noted that the 2 leaders are the 2 most populous states that total around 70 million people and the leader has one of the most restrictive gun laws in the entire US.

 

[Danoff]

In retrospect I have chosen my words poorly by banning i did mean making guns illegal for the mass. As stated in my earlier post guns should only be sold or used by trained people (1 year gun club qualifies for that) and by extensive vetting (requirements for permit)

I am not against gun collecting or gun clubs by the way. I have been planning to apply myself to perhaps collect and shoot classic revolvers like a Remington 1858. But preferably cap and ball revolvers like colt army/navy.

My gripes are with the right to bear arms. It should be a privilege for the ones who qualify and are well trained and only for collecting/recreational use in private area’s. It should not be an over the counter item which some states in the us allow. With the main reasoning being for protection.

Having a process doesn't mean it's illegal for the mass. It means that it's legal for anyone who can successfully go through the process. There is a vetting process including a background check for every gun purchase from a firearms dealer in the United States. There is some contention on that point because if you buy a gun from someone who is not a firearms dealer, they can sell it to you without a background check.

You're not arguing philosophy really. You're just arguing a degree of vetting. You act like there is this chasm of difference in gun control philosophy between our countries.

I'm not sure anyone in this thread has said that there was sufficient vetting in this incident in Texas, and I'm not sure I've seen anyone in this thread argue that vetting processes should not be more strict in the US.

 

[PocketZeven]

Should also be noted that the 2 leaders are the 2 most populous states that total around 70 million people and the leader has one of the most restrictive gun laws in the entire US.

These numbers are hard to compare without the population.

Having a process doesn't mean it's illegal for the mass. It means that it's legal for anyone who can successfully go through the process. There is a vetting process including a background check for every gun purchase from a firearms dealer in the United States. There is some contention on that point because if you buy a gun from someone who is not a firearms dealer, they can sell it to you without a background check. You're not arguing philosophy really then. You're just arguing a degree of vetting. You act like there is this chasm of difference in gun control philosophy between our countries.

I'm not sure anyone in this thread has said that there was sufficient vetting in this incident in Texas, and I'm not sure I've seen anyone in this thread argue that vetting processes should not be more strict in the US.

Guns are illegal by law here. The exception if you have a permit.

 

[Danoff]

Guns are illegal by law here. The exception if you have a permit.

Guns are illegal to purchase from a firearms dealer here, with exception of passing a background check.

 

[TetsuKobura]

These numbers are hard to compare without the population.

sigh

Using the same table, out of a total population of 323+ million people as of 2016, only counting murders by weapons:
-There were 15,037 total murders
-Out of that, 7,105 of those were by handguns
-A total of 1,604 were by knives or other cutting instruments
- 656 of those were by hands, fist, feet, etc.
-A whopping 371 of those murders were by rifles (keep in mind this includes every rifle type, whether it's military, hunting, etc.)

Tell me again how rifles are the problem? You could add Columbine, Sandy Hook, Pulse, AND Las Vegas, and it STILL will be less than deaths by hands, feet, etc.

 

[Exorcet]

Omfg now I know how Trump got his votes.

It wasn't me.

I wish you all good luck with your right to bear arms! I’m happy here where there are no guns to fear from.

That pretty much describes everyone I know, most of which live in the US. There isn't much reason fear dying from guns here in daily life. I don't mind if people feel safer without them around and I'd like people to have as much ability as they can to live as they like. Not everyone is going to want to live the same way though.

A government that takes care of the people who can’t help themselves

You don't really need a government for this, and the government can actually get in the way of this, but I am definitely for helping people in need.

A country where we are free to buy drugs if we want.

Now I'm more confused about why you brought drugs up in the first place earlier.

(come to think of it, drinking <21 is illegal in the US. Isn’t that taking away their freedom to drink what they want?)

It is a bit nonsensical to be considered adult at18 and not be allowed to drink. I'm not very familiar with drinking laws though because I don't drink. Keep minors from harming themselves with drugs is fine because they are not capable of making an informed decision. Though I myself don't want the line of adulthood to be drawn only by age.

If I ever lose my job, house etc. I know the government will take care of me.

I'd at least make an attempt to avoid taking the money because people should not be forced to help me in any capacity. I understand why people in the situation would accept the help though.

but I much prefer it too having the risk someone is carrying a gun in my vicinity and not afraid to use it.

I don't find that troubling at all. What would be troubling is if they wanted to harm someone else, and at that point the gun doesn't even matter.

 

[Sage Ages]

It’s illegal to own a gun in our country.

If you want you can apply for a permit.

So, it’s legal to own a gun in your country?

You Euro nutjobs are crazy.

Not helping.

 

[Joey D]

My gripes are with the right to bear arms. It should be a privilege for the ones who qualify and are well trained and only for collecting/recreational use in private area’s. It should not be an over the counter item which some states in the us allow. With the main reasoning being for protection.

The right to bear arms is the same thing as saying you have the right to defend your property and family.

I do agree more training should be involved to get a concealed carry permit but to just buy a gun for home defense, hunting, or target shooting you don't really need a ton of training. Essentially it comes down to don't point the barrel at anything you don't want shot. Also, keep your finger off the trigger until you're certain of your target. Doesn't really take a Ph.D to figure that one out.

I've gone to several classes though and I don't have a concealed carry permit (I don't see a point to carry a gun in SLC). However, I want to be certain that I can defend myself in a high-pressure situation if someone breaks into my house. This actually happened too, which prompted me to get a pistol in the first place. My wife was home alone since I traveled frequently for work and someone tried breaking in during the middle of the day. All she had access to was my hunting rifle which is not ideal for home defense. She ultimately scarred the guys off, but the fact she couldn't adequately defend herself had me worried.

 

[ryzno]

If I ever lose my job, house etc. I know the government will take care of me.

We have unemployment.
We have section 8(housing).
We have food stamps.
We have many other government programs.
We also have many charities and organizations that help the needy, don't let the "non profit" fool you.

In other words...

 

[Rich S]

Sometimes people become Unstable over time and this seems a factor these days with middle aged men in the USA. Suicide has spiked in this sex and age demographic.

This happened with my uncle. He broke up with my aunt after racking up massive debt. Theyd been together 20 yrs and had 2 kids. Then he stalked a female co worker after divorcing my aunt. He wrote texts to his co worker like they were lovers when she hardly knew him. When she threatened to tell their boss and call cops, he burned her house down. He's doing like 10 yrs in prison now for arson.

Anyways this seems a negative societal thing that in America we demonize middle to older aged men for their sexual desires, their personal wealth or their politics which tends to be more defined as they have advanced through years of experience either to the right or left or some other way.

During the recession a few years back I think this spiked the mental illness rate as well.

 

[RC45]

That is the illegal market. I am criticizing specifically the legality and lack of gun control in the US. Here in The Netherlands there is a lack of interest in gun ownership because it’s a different culture. In the US it just seems they promote gun ownership through fear and machoism.

Who is this they?

And I and all the other gun owners I know here (and that is a circle of about 40 local shooting friends and business aquaintenacesknow) don't fear a damn thing.

We own guns because a) it is our natural right, b) because we want to c) we enjoy them, their industrial and machanical contruction and function d) for self defense should we choose to use them - again a natural right and e) because we can.

The only people I know that may purchase a gun out of fear, are women who have been threatened or live in areas of high criminal and illegal activity - we have an illegal immigrant population with a very high desire to and rate of committing sexual offenses.

Would you deny women the right to defend themselves against rapists that slip over the border? Hell, would you deny them the right to defend themselves against their significant others?

Imagine if Natalie Holloway had been allowed to carry a gun on Aruba? She could have shot Joran Vandersloot in the face instead of being killed by him.

Where is this lack of gun control you keep citing?

When I buy guns I go to the gun store, show my Conceal Carry License and buy the gun and go home - in fact I will be splurging on a couple this coming Thanksgiving weekend - the gun and ammo sales are going to be awesome.

With regard to the Church killer, I just wish the Church wasn't a gun free zone, so that one or more of the law abiding parishernors could have been armed and stopped the shooter instead of having to cower on the floor waiting for an outsider to intervene.

 

[Michael88]

There is also gun ownership outside the US, the popularity of owning firearms and shooting sports in Switzerland is higher than anywhere else in the world and its also very popular in Austria, Finland and Germany. And no, I have not started collecting WWI rifles or doing target shooting because of fear, neither have any of my 100+ friends on the shooting range. They are all interested in the history of firearms, the technology and physics involved, they simply have fun hitting stuff at long ranges and they think that owning firearms for self protection is a sensible, logical thing.

In fact, none of my hobbies are dictated by fear, that would be very unhealthy I think.

 

[BobK]

If Texas wanted to separate from the Union do you think the federal government would just send in some jack booted thugs

Absolutely. See the events of 1861-65.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It has less to do with what I want, and more to do with what should be here. These debates never end with someone from either side saying "You know I never looked at it that way!" and changing their thoughts and stance on the subject.

Most of us who are gun rights followers or gun owners, tend to redirect people to the 'guns thread' to have these discussion, but as @Danoff said and others, people tend not to listen or bother. You make a good point, but also seem to wish away the fact that at the end of the day these tragedies are going to have the stigma of the gun debate automatically because people on both sides want to prevent this from happening. So while it'd be nice to mitigate the circular argument of the gun debate in a single thread, people tend not to care. And from what I've noticed those who want to yell about guns in a negative knee jerk reaction are typically doing it to not actually have a debate but say something to say something.

 

[huskeR32]

Take a look at this if you want.

Some things you should take from this:
California - 1930 total murders - 37 by rifles - 280 by knives/cutting instruments - 89 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Texas - 1459 total murders - 51 by rifles - 175 by knives/cutting instruments - 82 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Illinois - 941 total murders - 14 by rifles - 61 by knives/cutting instruments - 19 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Pennsylvania - 655 total murders - 10 by rifles - 68 by knives/cutting instruments - 23 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.
Georgia - 646 total murders - 20 by rifles - 48 by knives/cutting instruments
New York - 628 total murders - 2 by rifles - 130 by knives / cutting instruments - 32 by Hands, fists, feet, etc.

tl;dr Rifles for a majority of this table cause the least amount of deaths when each type of weapon used for a murder is split up. Banning rifles won't solve anything.

It should be noted Florida was unfortunately left out of this Table, probably due to Pulse.

I noticed that you're assuming that none of the "Firearms (type unknown)" column from the source data is actually rifles. Mind telling us how you arrived at that conclusion?

 

[TetsuKobura]

I noticed that you're assuming that none of the "Firearms (type unknown)" column from the source data is actually rifles. Mind telling us how you arrived at that conclusion?

As soon as you mind telling me why you're implying they're mostly rifles.

 

[huskeR32]

As soon as you mind telling me why you're implying they're mostly rifles.

I didn't imply a thing. I asked you a simple question.