McLaren Reveals Vision Gran Turismo-Inspired Solus GT Track Car

[Samus]

what do you expect from a manufacturer like McLaren?

A Grand Tourer or nothing at all.

And there‘s nothing that says they have to be road-going.

Seen many people touring in racing cars have you? One person tried it once, it didn't go well...

The grand touring designation generally "means motoring at speed, in style, safety, and comfort". "Purists define "gran turismo" as the enjoyment, excitement and comfort of open-road touring."

Can't really do much open-road touring in comfort laid on your stomach like this, can you?

You people never get satisfied ain’t you? Neglect it or enjoy it, but complaining about it in this way, make such a serious problem out of it, which it isn’t, is just bs to be honest.

"I don't have any actual response to your criticisms so I'm going to insult you, call it BS and job done"

 

[Imari]

The description is a 2 door sports car, what do you expect from a manufacturer like McLaren? And there‘s nothing that says they have to be road-going.

Hmm.

Grand tourer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A grand tourer (GT) is a type of car that is designed for high speed and long-distance driving, due to a combination of performance and luxury attributes. The most common format is a front-engine, rear-wheel-drive two-door coupé with either a two-seat or a 2+2 arrangement. Grand tourers are most often the coupé derivative of luxury saloons or sedans.

The term is a near-calque from the Italian language phrase gran turismo which became popular in the English language from the 1950s, evolving from fast touring cars and streamlined closed sports cars during the 1930s.

If PD said we want you to create „everyday affordable sports cars that could be produced in big units in the near future“, what do you think how many manufacturers would‘ve participated in it?

Lots?

 

[Matt atkins]

I don't know about that.

View attachment 1185324

This thing existed, as is from the game specs, driving around various venues with Formula E.

I have actually seen one on the roads where my mum and dad have their boat

 

[Tornado]

Even narrowing to the company that seems to take the program the most seriously, the two VW VGTs look significantly more like the Golf that was contemporary to them than it does the Golf VIII, even though the same year the second VGT car came out VW showed off a Golf concept that did give a teaser of a couple of the major styling elements present in the Golf VIII and the Golf VIII would have probably already had its styling locked by that point.

Is it? It's a concept car. It can be as much or as little work as the manufacturers choose. One could spend months doing detailed design research, iterating on ideas and making sure that the proposed numbers that go along with the mechanical design are reasonable and feasible.

Or one could get an artist to throw together a model of something racey looking with appropriate design language, slap a ludicrous powerplant on it and some impossible downforce numbers and call it a day. Total man hours somewhere below 8, including a liquid lunch.

To wit: When the very first Vision GT car was desired to be in a movie several years later Mercedes/Warner Brothers had to go through significant expense and effort just to make it a thing with doors that open that could be sat in by Ben Affleck; including significantly enlarging the car's footprint. And even after all that it still didn't have a drivetrain, and the scene where it actually moves is rather poor CGI covering a trailer behind it that powered it.






Because Mercedes didn't do any of that when they showed off the original design. Because they didn't have to do any actual development work on it in spite of all of the details in the press release:

With an aluminum spaceframe body and components in carbon fiber, the material of choice in motor racing, the Mercedes-Benz AMG Vision Gran Turismo tips the scales at only 1,385 kg. The AMG V8 biturbo engine delivers an exceptionally agile response to even the smallest movements of the accelerator. It develops 430 kW (577 HP) and a maximum torque of 800 Nm (590 ft-lb). With its ultra lightweight body, the weight-to-power ratio calculates to an amazing 2.43 kg/HP. And anyone can experience its breathtaking performance thanks to its AMG SPEEDSHIFT DCT 7-speed sports transmission, which is systematically configured for outstandingly dynamic performance.The sound of the car is another point to be noted. The powerful howl emitted by this engine was composed by sound specialists at AMG. The sonorous exhaust note and engine sounds are tuned perfectly to awaken the excitement of a racetrack wherever you are.The double wishbone suspension on the front and rear axles reflects a long-standing racing experience at Mercedes-Benz. The electronic differential lock ensures the ideal traction for the powered rear wheels. The AMG ceramic high-performance compound brake system guarantees excellent deceleration.

So they didn't.

 

[Famine]

I have actually seen one on the roads where my mum and dad have their boat

That seems unlikely as it's not road legal and its only appearance in the UK was at the Formula E London ePrix.

 

[Matt atkins]

That seems unlikely as it's not road legal and its only appearance in the UK was at the Formula E London ePrix.

I have definitely seen one

 

[Famine]

I have definitely seen one

You definitely have not, unless you've been at a Formula E race - and certainly not on a public road. Also there is only one of them to see.

I'd wager I know what you're actually talking about, but it's fascinating to see you yet again making a completely untrue claim and doubling down on it. I make that three times now.

Edit: Heh, someone really doesn't like being caught making stuff up again.

 

[iName]

Reading through the post it seems that yeah, there's no definitive "the VGT that started it all" in terms of new brand language. My best off top my head would be the Merc, which would make sense being the first. The others were more or less typical concept cars previewing future models there were yes, already locked in at that point (and probably for a least a year prior). I'll ignore my old argument because it turned out to be pretty stupid. There's some cool nuance going on in this thread on the critique of VGT program in response of this McLaren.

I guess it's an issue of communication, like what the purpose of VGT is. Every concept has a purpose, be it shallow marketing of a crazy Oldsmobile hypercar or a concept but really the production version of the EV Charger and they're testing the waters. So the VGT's purpose? Is it Gran Turismo having a direct effect on future brand language? Nah not really, no manufacturer would allow that. Showcasing future technologies and GT being the digital debut? Well yeah if you count space-carbon, otherwise it's been basic stuff. It's just vague in it's goal as a project, and it shows with the reaction kind of being all over the place from everyone and the interpretation of the brief by manufacturers.

A vague brief causes stuff like the 2X to happen. When that was let through, then it got stupid. That marked the end of true VGT, and you can look through the list of releases and date that. Last believable concept in my eyes post-2X was the Mini, but that became an all out racecar and the Infiniti, while a street car, has a trick drivetrain and impossible proportion. Only Suzuki went back to the usual, but it now looks almost too boring for VGT.

And that's because VGT became a brand, not a project. No purpose other than a name to let a teaser concept into the Gran Turismo universe for marketing, or a reason to make a concept car for excitement farming. That's what permits stuff like the McLaren here, and why it can use the VGT name willingly. I don't hate it as a concept, but can't deny the pointlessness of slapping VGT on it. I still like the project as a fan of Gran Turismo, because I saw and "experienced" the cars that predated the ones on the road. And people do find that pretty neat when I tell them about it. Maybe that was the goal of VGT? There's a purpose somewhere.

 

[Tornado]

You definitely have not, unless you've been at a Formula E race - and certainly not on a public road.

I mean what is a Formula E race except an elaborate parade (and occasional 10 car pileup) on a bunch of city streets?

 

[Matt atkins]

I mean what is a Formula E race except an elaborate parade (and occasional 10 car pileup) on a bunch of city streets?

Okay I understand sorry

 

[Imari]

I mean what is a Formula E race except an elaborate parade (and occasional 10 car pileup) on a bunch of city streets?

But where else can you hear a bunch of cars go wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?

I petition for it to henceforth be called Formula Whee. But the H has to be there, because it's forbidden to urinate in the streets.

 

[TexRex]

...it's forbidden to urinate in the streets.

 

[Tornado]

But where else can you hear a bunch of cars go wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?

I petition for it to henceforth be called Formula Whee. But the H has to be there, because it's forbidden to urinate in the streets.

I guess they'll never be a race in San Francisco or Portland, then.

 

[Auditore]

Looks mad just like the one in game,i'm all for bringing more VGTs to real life if possible,nothing wrong with wild designs even if they're not too practical.
My favorite is still the Toyota FT-1 and how it served as a inspiration for the new Supra

 

[NissanR89C]

I don't understand why people dislike cars like this and the Vision Gran Turismo program. I think this car is awesome, and I love the VGT program. If you don't want to drive the cars then don't, there is tons of other cars in the games.

That seems unlikely as it's not road legal and its only appearance in the UK was at the Formula E London ePrix.

He is probably getting mixed up with the Audi RS E Tron GT, they do look similar

 

[HarVee]

I don't understand why people dislike cars like this and the Vision Gran Turismo program. I think this car is awesome, and I love the VGT program. If you don't want to drive the cars then don't, there is tons of other cars in the games.


He is probably getting mixed up with the Audi RS E Tron GT, they do look similar

I suggest reading the comments by Imari and Tornado. They've both summed up why people dislike these type of cars and the VGT project.

I've never hated the VGT project, but somehow it really has lost its way. We got some cars like the MINI and BMW which are realistic looking concepts, then on the other side of the spectrum we've got the 'willy waving' Chaparral 2X and Tomahawk. So it does make one wonder what audience exactly is the program suppose to appeal to.

As for this McLaren, it's interesting to see a car influenced by VGT become an actual reality, as most of the VGTs still remain in fantasy land.

 

[dimassa19]

I already got my McLaren Senna, oops, Solus.

 

[Auditore]

I suggest reading the comments by Imari and Tornado. They've both summed up why people dislike these type of cars and the VGT project.

I've never hated the VGT project, but somehow it really has lost its way. We got some cars like the MINI and BMW which are realistic looking concepts, then on the other side of the spectrum we've got the 'willy waving' Chaparral 2X and Tomahawk. So it does make one wonder what audience exactly is the program suppose to appeal to.

Don't know what exactly are Kaz words about the VGT program but i always took the idea as a canvas for companies to look at the meanings behind a specific car or their company as a whole.In the case of the Chaparral VGT,Chaparral took what the 2J meant for the time,a crazy design with a unusual power source(fans) and took it to a extreme solution(VGT laser powered engine),it's looking at the car as what it meant to people emotionally than a simple moving vehicle,maybe its pretentious but i love it.
Only reason i don't wish for PD to bring more VGTs right now is because their dlcs are 3 car each month,real ones should be a priority for updates.But there is nothing wrong with VGTs,they are great.

 

[RACECAR]

I am of the impression that when Kaz proposed these manufacturers to design a "GT" for..GT (Yeah, that's not gonna come off vague at all), he never really properly conveyed what he meant to the audience. I think what we have here is a classic case of not so well managed Messaging (So far, so classic PD) and so what we have here is a mix of designs that either meet or don't meet people's ideas of a GT (The classic definition of the car) while they're supposed to be is each brand's interpretation of Kaz's very interesting idea of a...GT.

Again its merely an impression based on what I'm seeing but yeah, biggest takeaway here is they aren't very good at this messaging thing.

 

[VinylRichie]

Critiquing the VGT program is ranting now? 'Kay.

I could, but they're not part of the VGT program and so not relevant to this thread.

I kind of get the impression that you would like people to be positive about everything or just shut up. That's not how any of this works.

And you're still assuming anger, which again, 'kay.

My opinion is that the implementation of the VGT program has been for the most part a waste of resources that could have been used more effectively. I've explained why in what I think is reasonable detail. You obviously disagree, and I don't doubt that there's people out there that love every single VGT released.

I'm not sure that "it's not that much work for PD" holds up as a counterargument though. However much work it is or isn't, it could have been used on something else.

I mean, why did you assume I was angry in the first place? I may have a snarky writing style sometimes, but that's not a reliable indicator of anger. I'd say starting sentences with "my god" and ending them with multiple question marks is a better indicator of anger, but still not reliable. Sometimes you just really question things.

Is it? It's a concept car. It can be as much or as little work as the manufacturers choose. One could spend months doing detailed design research, iterating on ideas and making sure that the proposed numbers that go along with the mechanical design are reasonable and feasible.

Or one could get an artist to throw together a model of something racey looking with appropriate design language, slap a ludicrous powerplant on it and some impossible downforce numbers and call it a day. Total man hours somewhere below 8, including a liquid lunch.

The VGT program appears to have both of these and everything in-between.

It would appear you've misinterpreted that. My bad, perhaps I should have been more clear, but the previous sentence did reference "design and sell".

My intended meaning was "Polyphony didn't contribute anything to the design or production", which as far as I understand it is true. The manufacturers have total control over the design and it's specs. Polyphony do not give them limitations, nor do they help with the design or engineering. Polyphony just puts it in the game.

In terms of a car that is made in the real world (as is the topic of this thread), Polyphony has done nothing to aid in the design or production of that car.

It is too bad. But we're still allowed to talk about it.

They don't even specify that. That was the understanding at the start of the project, but I think at this point there are enough VGTs that are clearly in no way Grand Tourers that it's safe to say that Polyphony in no way held manufacturers to it.

Yes.

I mean, they shouldn't say "never make a real car out of this" because then it wouldn't be a concept car. The whole point is that these cars should be able to make it into the real world. But absolutely they should be able to come back with "nah, we don't like that because..." whatever reasons they care to insert. It's (supposedly) some sort of collaboration. Polyphony can choose what they do and don't want to put in their game.

I would prefer if the VGT project was much more focused and had actual guidelines around what is and isn't appropriate. I obviously have a direction in which I think it could be most effectively focused, but I'd actually take just about anything.

If they decided that all the cars should be GT3-like, that would be a choice and there would be advantages to that.
If they decided that they should all be 1000+ halo track day cars, I think that would be boring but you'd at least have a field of track day cars which would be kinda cool.
If they decided that everyone should make a sub-$100,000 electric sports car of the type that they think will be on the road in ten years, that would be interesting and relevant.

I thought the "everyone make a Grand Tourer" idea was fine, relevant to the game and cars of that type are usually beautiful and excellent to drive on a wide variety of tracks. But they didn't stick to it. Even the topic of this article is in absolutely no way a Grand Tourer. It can't even go on the road.

There's any number of design briefs they could have chosen that would give better racing and make the cars more relevant both to players and to advertisers and the world at large. After all, this is basically marketing so Polyphony's "job" is to get the manufacturers names out there. But they let it devolve into "anything goes", which gets you variety but doesn't do much beyond that.

You're welcome to disagree, but I think the VGT program would be better if it had clear guidelines that were actually enforced by Polyphony.

Again, it would be nice, but do you think most manufacturers would join this program then? You have to be realistic.

Hmm.

Grand tourer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A grand tourer (GT) is a type of car that is designed for high speed and long-distance driving, due to a combination of performance and luxury attributes. The most common format is a front-engine, rear-wheel-drive two-door coupé with either a two-seat or a 2+2 arrangement. Grand tourers are most often the coupé derivative of luxury saloons or sedans.

The term is a near-calque from the Italian language phrase gran turismo which became popular in the English language from the 1950s, evolving from fast touring cars and streamlined closed sports cars during the 1930s.

Lots?

Lots, really? That is a wishful and sorry to say that, but naive thinking. Car manufacturers won’t go this route nowadays, actual production which will be mass produced are again too important for them to be revealed at a video game, not even their concepts I would say. These are the bread & butter of these company’s, not just some prestige cars to reach some new customers trough games and do some low-cost marketing.

And you wanna talk about the traditional definition of a Gran Turismo and how they don’t stick to it?
What has the name Gran Turismo with the actual game this all is happening in, in common?
We can talk about how these classifications get watered down nowadays and I would agree with you generally, look at what small cars today are in comparison to a Fiat 500, or which cars get called a „Sports Utility Vehicle“.

These are arguments that fairly aren’t untrue, but is that really what you are mad about? And more importantly, is it really worth to make that of a fuzz about it?
Sure you could say PD could put their resources on something different because you think it’s a waste of time, but people could also say that we could put our time also on something else because they see debating on a sub-topic like this about a video game as a waste of time (and I wouldn’t disagree with them). So the thing is PD is totally free to do things others consider as a time waste, and even when I’m repeating myself over and over again: You are free to don’t like things and voice it (obviously), but you should also expect others to call you out because of your ungratefulness towards something that doesn’t cost you anything, that you get for free and is in essence just the approach of someone trying to do something new, something no other probably thought of in video game culture, put things on another level. If you do something new no one has experience with, it’s never working out a 100% as you might wished (while that we don’t know), but you did it instead of just not doing it, and it delivered some great results this far I would say. How near or far off of Kaz‘s original vision it is we don’t know, but it’s there, and we could just don’t have it in GT like any other racing game. So i will say it this time directly: show at least some respect for the Love and passion Kaz and PD put into these things, trying to go a step further as others (what they always did), even if you don’t like the result.

 

[Samus]

These are arguments that fairly aren’t untrue, but is that really what you are mad about? And more importantly, is it really worth to make that of a fuzz about it?

Right back at ya. Nobody is mad, they're just discussing the subject matter of the topic like adults. It's you who seems to get mad at anyone making valid points against the VGT program, and your retort always just boils down to "Deal with it and be grateful our lord and saviour created these cars" or personal insults with the assumption we're all blood boiling mad about it, for some reason.

 

[VinylRichie]

A Grand Tourer or nothing at all.

Seen many people touring in racing cars have you? One person tried it once, it didn't go well...

Can't really do much open-road touring in comfort laid on your stomach like this, can you?

"I don't have any actual response to your criticisms so I'm going to insult you, call it BS and job done"

How many Gran Turismos are in the Game Gran Turismo?

Like many pointed out here, it is a very vague definition and probably a miscommunication. But by looking at the VGT cars released to this day, you could just come to your own conclusions what are the driving forces behind these concept cars, what their goals were.

I call things bs when they are bs. There’s things in the world which are bs, and things that ain’t, this is the former one, easy as that.

 

[Samus]

How many Gran Turismos are in the Game Gran Turismo?

What does that have to do with anything? Nobody ever said every car in the game had to be a GT car. These VGTs however, WERE specifically meant to be. That was the whole point. Their VISION of a GRAN TURISMO car. It's literally the name. Not vision of a car made of things that don't even exist that you drive on your stomach and go 300mph around corners.

Like many pointed out here, it is a very vague definition and probably a miscommunication.

It's not very vague at all. You just don't like the definition. Luxury, Comfort and Performance are the three key ingredients.

The Vision Gran Turismo project started with a single question from Gran Turismo founder Kazunori Yamauchi: “Would you design your rendition of the ideal GT for us?” GT stands for Gran Turismo or Grand Tourer (where the game got its name from), which describes a sporty performance coupe.

Is the McLaren any of those things? No.

But by looking at the VGT cars released to this day, you could just come to your own conclusions what are the driving forces behind these concept cars, what their goals were.

Yes, marketing their brand and in many cases, specific upcoming models. That's it.

I call things bs when they are bs. There’s things in the world which are bs, and things that ain’t, this is the former one, easy as that.

No, you've not explained at all why our criticism of the VGT cars is "BS". You have never provided no actual retort to any of the points being made.

 

[VinylRichie]

Right back at ya. Nobody is mad, they're just discussing the subject matter of the topic like adults. It's you who seems to get mad at anyone making valid points against the VGT program, and your retort always just boils down to "Deal with it and be grateful our lord and saviour created these cars" or personal insults with the assumption we're all blood boiling mad about it, for some reason.

Valid in some cases, sure, but adult, no, not that much.

And no savior or lord bs, don’t just exaggerate things to make a point.
Just don’t take things for granted and first respect the architect instead of behaving like ungrateful infants.

Let me ask you: is it so hard to understand that it’s not about the criticism, but about the way it gets voiced, about the attitude that gets cultivated because „we are just on the internet“?

 

[Samus]

Valid in some cases, sure, but adult, no, not that much.

And no savior or lord bs, don’t just exaggerate things to make a point.
Just don’t take things for granted and first respect the architect instead of behaving like ungrateful infants.

Let me ask you: is it so hard to understand that it’s not about the criticism, but about the way it gets voiced, about the attitude that gets cultivated because „we are just on the internet“?

So.....then you are just mad that people aren't being grateful towards Kaz and VGTs?

Newsflash, nobody has to be grateful for everything. We're allowed to critique things in an adult manner without insulting people personally.

Which, BTW, last I recall it was you that had messages deleted for being abusive towards people, not any of us being critical of the project. How bout that.

 

[IcySlivers]

It’s cool for sure, but kind of rubs me the wrong way that the speed tail isn’t even out yet and they’re like, here’s something better!

 

[VinylRichie]

What does that have to do with anything? Nobody ever said every car in the game had to be a GT car. These VGTs however, WERE specifically meant to be. That was the whole point. Their VISION of a GRAN TURISMO car. It's literally the name. Not vision of a car made of things that don't even exist that you drive on your stomach and go 300mph around corners.

It's not very vague at all. You just don't like the definition. Luxury, Comfort and Performance are the three key ingredients.


Is the McLaren any of those things? No.

Yes, marketing their brand and in many cases, specific upcoming models. That's it.

No, you've not explained at all why our criticism of the VGT cars is "BS". You have never provided no actual retort to any of the points being made.

What has that to do with anything, are you serious?

And yeah, even if they would’ve acted a 100% correct on this definition, what would’ve been the benefits creating for PD, the manufacturers and the players to have a bunch of fictional GTs, so luxury sports cars. What would be the challenge in this and do you really think manufacturers would put their resources in it.
Don’t you guys think, someone like Kaz who knows car culture very well and has a lot of inside views on the car industry, considered one or two things, talked to people from the industry, before he put this program to life?

 

[NotThePrez]

Again, it would be nice, but do you think most manufacturers would join this program then? You have to be realistic.

Lots, really? That is a wishful and sorry to say that, but naive thinking.

I'd definitely wager that there would be just as much, if not even much more interest from OEMs if there was an actual consistent focus from the project, especially if said focus was centered on designs that are actually road-relevant and/or relevant to the manufacturer. As it stands, it's hard to see what, if any, real-world relevancy is present in things like the SRT Tomahawk, Chaparral Laser concept, or the McLaren VGT/Solus. Allegedly it's only a small blurb for at least one of the designers who worked on the Vision GT project.

And even speaking as a player/consumer, imo the most interesting cars that have been created for the VGT project so far are the ones that are clearly linked to actual road cars. Most of the other nuttier cars are so ridiculous and unrealistic that it breaks the suspension of disbelief quite easily. Even the Red Bull X-Cars are more interesting because, for the most part, those cars could actually be built right now with current technology (IIRC, the only questionable aspect would be building a sturdy-enough tire that could withstand the loads produced by the car).

Car manufacturers won’t go this route nowadays, actual production which will be mass produced are again too important for them to be revealed at a video game, not even their concepts I would say.

In some capacity the concepts for A90 Supra and R35 GT-R are heavily linked to Gran Turismo, even though the original concepts for these cars were shown before being implemented in the games. The design cues for the BMW M2, Audi RS e-Tron GT and Bugatti Chiron were first seen in their respective Vision GT cars IIRC. Hell, the F87 M2 proper was first revealed in NFS No Limits before making its real-world debut.

These are arguments that fairly aren’t untrue, but is that really what you are mad about? And more importantly, is it really worth to make that of a fuzz about it?

Didn't you literally admit to having a post of yours removed by the mods because you insulted another user in a different thread? I suggest that you need to look in the mirror before accusing others of being mad.

So i will say it this time directly: show at least some respect for the Love and passion Kaz and PD put into these things, trying to go a step further as others (what they always did), even if you don’t like the result.

And why should I? Kaz isn't the one who is actually designing/building the cars, nor is he solely the one responsible for their implementation into the GT series. The creative people who come up with these ideas within the OEMS and actually work at their creation are much more deserving of any respect imo, since they're doing the actual hard part.

 

[Samus]

What has that to do with anything, are you serious?

And yeah, even if they would’ve acted a 100% correct on this definition, what would’ve been the benefits creating for PD, the manufacturers and the players to have a bunch of fictional GTs, so luxury sports cars. What would be the challenge in this and do you really think manufacturers would put their resources in it.
Don’t you guys think, someone like Kaz who knows car culture very well and has a lot of inside views on the car industry, considered one or two things, talked to people from the industry, before he put this program to life?

Don't you see the contradiction there? If he'd talked to people in the industry and didn't just want a bunch of GT cars then why did he launch the project by stating that he'd asked manufacturers to design...GT cars?

It wasn't supposed to be a "challenge". It was supposed to celebrate 15 years of Gran Turismo by working with manufactuers to design their vision of future Gran Turismo cars. If Kaz couldn't get enough of them to sign up to that, then the project should have been a non-starter.

The end result would have been 10-15 modern GT cars that could then race together with similar performance.

Instead we end up with a whole bunch of random willy waving design projects that can't race each other because of their huge varying performance because they just let manufacturers use them to promote anything they wanted.

 

[VinylRichie]

So.....then you are just mad that people aren't being grateful towards Kaz and VGTs?

Newsflash, nobody has to be grateful for everything. We're allowed to critique things in an adult manner without insulting people personally.

Which, BTW, last I recall it was you that had messages deleted for being abusive towards people, not any of us being critical of the project. How bout that.

Yeah valid point, at first, but the main thing is that you guys behave questionable in the first place, it’s just that the person this is about isnt present. So yeah I understand that some responses got deleted and I respect that, but this argument isn’t as benefiting yourself as you might think.

And yes you don’t have to be grateful, but I don’t have to be understanding about your position either, easy as that.