MG Rover collapse
- Thread starter F1GTR
- 94 comments
- 3,795 views
PS
(Banned)
- 2,883
FirebirdLand Rover is not "mainstream" whatsoever.
Here anyway.
I'd say the closest we've got on this side of the Atlantic is Mini. The MG/Rover engineers designed most of it (as evidenced by the horrendous reliability problems).
Yah, Land Rover is few and far between in Canada. I usually only see maybe one every week or 2. And Mini is owned by BMW, Land Rover by Ford.
- 3,052
Last I heard, the British gov't is offering Rover $12 million to help pay off its debt.
- 23,999
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
I hate to see so many people lose their jobs (even if they are brummies!) ...but both the Rover and MG badges have been abused for years by being placed on the bonnets of poor excuses for automobiles. The last decent Rover was the SDI (thanks Buick!) The last MG of any worth was the MGA, or Metro 6R4 (again thanks Buick, and bigger thanks to Williams!)
Everyone raves about the MGB - but have they ever driven one? they are awful under powered cars, just about acceptable in 1967 but they remained pretty much unchanged into the late 70's/early 80's. The govenment should have had MGR 'put down' years ago. The British auto-industry, i include all the German, American, Malaysian and Russian owned companies, as well as Morgan, Caterham, Radical and Westfield - needs to move on and concentrate on what it does best - low volume specialist cars.
Everyone raves about the MGB - but have they ever driven one? they are awful under powered cars, just about acceptable in 1967 but they remained pretty much unchanged into the late 70's/early 80's. The govenment should have had MGR 'put down' years ago. The British auto-industry, i include all the German, American, Malaysian and Russian owned companies, as well as Morgan, Caterham, Radical and Westfield - needs to move on and concentrate on what it does best - low volume specialist cars.
- 2,568
- we're waiting for the PS4
- fishtailrook1 (?)
Cracker, dude, if you mean cars should go back to the Luxury items they started out as...your talking to the wrong continent. America is not solid suburbs...yet, so there isn't less than a meter between houses. you can't walk eveywhere on concrete yet (although you can practically DRIVE everywhere) if I need to go get a Pack of smokes, a bottle of pop or something, I have to walk for at least 2 HOURS for the nearest store...most of it uphill. the nearest town is 8 miles/12km in any direction...in one of the most crowded states in the US, to boot.
- 535
Cracker, like I said, I OWN a 1970 MGB GT. It's far from underpowered, and is an absolute ball to drive.
Of course, I personally added a Kent cam, Weber 32/36DGV carburetor, ANSA header and exhaust, and thinner copper head gasket to boost compression, so the car is up from the stock 115hp and more around 130-150hp, which is more than enough to get that little 2200lb sports car up and moving.
The tail likes to step out on hard cornering (leaf spring solid axle suspension with friction shocks) but the manual rack & pinion steering and double wishbone front suspension keep the front end steady for quick corrections. It's a responsive, quick, and uncannily fun car to drive. The only big complaint I have is with the friction shocks, and Spax sells a great fluid shock conversion kit for that.
Of course, I personally added a Kent cam, Weber 32/36DGV carburetor, ANSA header and exhaust, and thinner copper head gasket to boost compression, so the car is up from the stock 115hp and more around 130-150hp, which is more than enough to get that little 2200lb sports car up and moving.
The tail likes to step out on hard cornering (leaf spring solid axle suspension with friction shocks) but the manual rack & pinion steering and double wishbone front suspension keep the front end steady for quick corrections. It's a responsive, quick, and uncannily fun car to drive. The only big complaint I have is with the friction shocks, and Spax sells a great fluid shock conversion kit for that.
- 3,052
What's the deal with the loan from the British government? Will it help?
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,705
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
This may help get people up to speed with the MG Rover saga - a nice timeline from theis weeks Autocar
May 2000
BMW sells Rover to Phoenix Holdings for £10, together with a £427 million soft loan, saving it from job losses and Jon Moulton's Alchemy Partners, which planned to develop MG as a specialist maker.
April 2001
XPower launched as part of new MG Sport and Racing subsidiary
May 2001
MG Z cars launched, BMW gives engine plant, £65m.
Nov 2001
Announces plan to build a new medium car
Dec 2001
Plans joint venture with China Brilliance
Jan 2002
MG TF is announced
Feb 2002
Rover TCV concept car unvieled
Dec 2002
CityRover project announced
Feb 2003
TWR, a key engineering partner for the 45 replacement goes bust.
April 2003
Financial scandel at China Brilliance kills alliance.
Sept 2003
CityRover launched to poor reviews
Nov 2003
Production halted to clear stock backlog.
Oct 2004
Reports £77m loss for 2003, down from £95m in 2002. Sales drop 30%.
Nov 2004
£1bn deal with SAIC announced
Feb 2005
Concern grows over the deal; Chinese and UK governments in talks.
April 2005
Deal fails due to questions over MGR's solvency.
On the issue of loans, two have been offered by the UK government.
The first was a £100m briding loan that was dependent on two things; the deal with SAIC being completed and MG Rover's ability to repay it (within six monthes or the loan would be classed as illegal state support under EU law). MG Rover were not able to prove that they would be able to pay the loan back and as a result SAIC withdrew and MG Rover called in the administrators.
The second loan was £6.5m, and was issued to pay for the MG Rover workers wages for 1 week, to allow the administrators time to try and reopen talks with SAIC. No further news have been announced since.
To date SAIC has put £67m into the deal, and is rumoured to have the rights to the Rover 25 and 75, and possiably the K-series engine. It does not however own the Rover brand, BMW still owns this, as it was only licenced to the Phoenix group.
Mention has been made to the MG racing programme, this is run by MG Sport and Racing (who also make the MG SV) who are not part of MG Rover and not affected by the failure of MG Rover, howver they are also not profitable at present.
Also its was announced today that all owners of MG Rover cars no longer have warranties on them, the administrators have said the funds are not availiable to cover them and the owners should seek goodwill from dealers to resolve any problems. They will need a good deal of luck, MG Rover delaers hardly had the best reputation to start with.
So yes the last British volume car manufacturer is on its last legs, but that can only be blamed on MG Rover themselves (I quite agree with all of Famine's posts above). Car manufacturing is alive and well in the UK, with huge plants run by Nissan, Honda, MINI, Peugeot, Toyota and Ford. The majority of the plants are all very productive, so its hard to see how the manufacturing climate is to blame.
Pointing the finger at BMW hardly helps; its been five years since they sold Rover, and as part of the deal provided a number of loans to help the transition. Additionally without MINI production in the UK, the ex-Rover plants in Swindon and Oxford would have also closed (and a number of people I know would have been out of work).
As I said, I agree with Famine, MG Rover had a poor quality, very old model range, poorly built and with outdated technology. As a result the product was not attractive, a situation not helped by the appaling dealer network, to whom customer service was a strange and alien concept. I have had the misfortune to have to train MG Rover dealer staff, and to be polite they are just not interested in the industry, product or customers.
May 2000
BMW sells Rover to Phoenix Holdings for £10, together with a £427 million soft loan, saving it from job losses and Jon Moulton's Alchemy Partners, which planned to develop MG as a specialist maker.
April 2001
XPower launched as part of new MG Sport and Racing subsidiary
May 2001
MG Z cars launched, BMW gives engine plant, £65m.
Nov 2001
Announces plan to build a new medium car
Dec 2001
Plans joint venture with China Brilliance
Jan 2002
MG TF is announced
Feb 2002
Rover TCV concept car unvieled
Dec 2002
CityRover project announced
Feb 2003
TWR, a key engineering partner for the 45 replacement goes bust.
April 2003
Financial scandel at China Brilliance kills alliance.
Sept 2003
CityRover launched to poor reviews
Nov 2003
Production halted to clear stock backlog.
Oct 2004
Reports £77m loss for 2003, down from £95m in 2002. Sales drop 30%.
Nov 2004
£1bn deal with SAIC announced
Feb 2005
Concern grows over the deal; Chinese and UK governments in talks.
April 2005
Deal fails due to questions over MGR's solvency.
On the issue of loans, two have been offered by the UK government.
The first was a £100m briding loan that was dependent on two things; the deal with SAIC being completed and MG Rover's ability to repay it (within six monthes or the loan would be classed as illegal state support under EU law). MG Rover were not able to prove that they would be able to pay the loan back and as a result SAIC withdrew and MG Rover called in the administrators.
The second loan was £6.5m, and was issued to pay for the MG Rover workers wages for 1 week, to allow the administrators time to try and reopen talks with SAIC. No further news have been announced since.
To date SAIC has put £67m into the deal, and is rumoured to have the rights to the Rover 25 and 75, and possiably the K-series engine. It does not however own the Rover brand, BMW still owns this, as it was only licenced to the Phoenix group.
Mention has been made to the MG racing programme, this is run by MG Sport and Racing (who also make the MG SV) who are not part of MG Rover and not affected by the failure of MG Rover, howver they are also not profitable at present.
Also its was announced today that all owners of MG Rover cars no longer have warranties on them, the administrators have said the funds are not availiable to cover them and the owners should seek goodwill from dealers to resolve any problems. They will need a good deal of luck, MG Rover delaers hardly had the best reputation to start with.
So yes the last British volume car manufacturer is on its last legs, but that can only be blamed on MG Rover themselves (I quite agree with all of Famine's posts above). Car manufacturing is alive and well in the UK, with huge plants run by Nissan, Honda, MINI, Peugeot, Toyota and Ford. The majority of the plants are all very productive, so its hard to see how the manufacturing climate is to blame.
Pointing the finger at BMW hardly helps; its been five years since they sold Rover, and as part of the deal provided a number of loans to help the transition. Additionally without MINI production in the UK, the ex-Rover plants in Swindon and Oxford would have also closed (and a number of people I know would have been out of work).
As I said, I agree with Famine, MG Rover had a poor quality, very old model range, poorly built and with outdated technology. As a result the product was not attractive, a situation not helped by the appaling dealer network, to whom customer service was a strange and alien concept. I have had the misfortune to have to train MG Rover dealer staff, and to be polite they are just not interested in the industry, product or customers.
Race Idiot
(Banned)
- 11,439
- Sao Tome and Principe
Scaff
Shouldn't that be 're-badge some car manufactured in India'
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,705
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
MG Rover latest:
SAIC today confirmed that the deal with MG Rover was over and that they will not re-enter negotiations with MG Rover's administration team.
6,000 MG Rover workers will now almost certainly face redundancy, while the British government has announced a £150m aid package for the workers to aid in retraining, etc.
While in theory another partner could come along it is very unlikely, the £6.5m for workers wages provided by the British government was for one week only and was provided one week ago. In other words its gone.
It does look as if the last volume British owned car manufacturer is now dead, its a shame, but the market place was over supplied with cars and something had to give.
SAIC today confirmed that the deal with MG Rover was over and that they will not re-enter negotiations with MG Rover's administration team.
6,000 MG Rover workers will now almost certainly face redundancy, while the British government has announced a £150m aid package for the workers to aid in retraining, etc.
While in theory another partner could come along it is very unlikely, the £6.5m for workers wages provided by the British government was for one week only and was provided one week ago. In other words its gone.
It does look as if the last volume British owned car manufacturer is now dead, its a shame, but the market place was over supplied with cars and something had to give.
- 87,415
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Because they were making outdated crap. That isn't the workers' faults, but they're the ones that are going to suffer the most.
The best part is that certain sections of the media are berating the British public for not buying British and saying that it's typical of the British to be unpatriotic.
Firstly, they're all driving Audi TTs. Secondly, why are we supposed to ignore better, cheaper alternatives? MUST we buy British if it IS British, regardless of the quality? Bollocks, more like.
The best part is that certain sections of the media are berating the British public for not buying British and saying that it's typical of the British to be unpatriotic.
Firstly, they're all driving Audi TTs. Secondly, why are we supposed to ignore better, cheaper alternatives? MUST we buy British if it IS British, regardless of the quality? Bollocks, more like.
GilesGuthrie
Staff Emeritus
- 11,038
- Edinburgh, UK
- CMDRTheDarkLord
Well, I can't really have any sympathy for the company. I do feel for the workers, because there has been a lot of history there, and a lot of people have given their working lives. However, it's probably those people that drove the company into the ground in the mid-1970s and early-1980s, in the British Leyland/Austin Rover days, when all the products were complete toilet. Even the Rover SD1, which had an appetite for gearboxes matched only by the Ferrari F2005. Back in those days, when the large volume luxury car was a going concern, people did want to buy them, but they were such ****boxes, that people were literally pushed screaming to the Fatherland. In my view, the company never got over it.
Then came the Honda tie-up, and there were actually some half-decent cars made. Basically because they were Hondas with some walnut nailed to the dash, but you get the point. The habit of "sweating" the model was already there for all to see though, as the Rover 800 stumbled on and on for a thousand years, whilst its donor car, the Honda Legend, went through at least three variants. Similarly with the Honda Civic/Rover 45. Who can believe, looking at a Civic Type-R and an MG ZS, that these cars share lineage? One is every inch the aspirational hot hatch, the other is some Grandad-mobile with a huge engine.
I think that a lot of it can be traced back to the invention of the K-Series engine. It's almost as if once they had invented that engine, they felt that they could make cars again. Not that we should mention that TWR fixed the camshaft-snapping issues of the V6 Ks...
On a similar note, what's happening to the sportscar manufacturers? Has the K been licensed, or are Lotus/Caterham et al out of an engine?
Finally, someone mentioned the Morgan Aero 8. "A BMW engineer" was quoted as saying that that car was the best chassis their 4.4l V8 had ever been mated to.
British car making: Alive and well, but bankrolled by foreigners.
Then came the Honda tie-up, and there were actually some half-decent cars made. Basically because they were Hondas with some walnut nailed to the dash, but you get the point. The habit of "sweating" the model was already there for all to see though, as the Rover 800 stumbled on and on for a thousand years, whilst its donor car, the Honda Legend, went through at least three variants. Similarly with the Honda Civic/Rover 45. Who can believe, looking at a Civic Type-R and an MG ZS, that these cars share lineage? One is every inch the aspirational hot hatch, the other is some Grandad-mobile with a huge engine.
I think that a lot of it can be traced back to the invention of the K-Series engine. It's almost as if once they had invented that engine, they felt that they could make cars again. Not that we should mention that TWR fixed the camshaft-snapping issues of the V6 Ks...
On a similar note, what's happening to the sportscar manufacturers? Has the K been licensed, or are Lotus/Caterham et al out of an engine?
Finally, someone mentioned the Morgan Aero 8. "A BMW engineer" was quoted as saying that that car was the best chassis their 4.4l V8 had ever been mated to.
British car making: Alive and well, but bankrolled by foreigners.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,705
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
GilesGuthrie
Who owns the rights to the K-series engines is a bit unclear, SAIC are rumoured (and thats all it is at present) to have bought to the rights, but this has not been confirmed.Even if this rumour is true it is unlikely to effect the small UK car manufacturers as any rights that SAIC have are likely to be geographically limited.
The K-series engine is produced by Powertrain Ltd, a seperate part of Phoenix Holdings Ltd, and as such should not be damaged by the MG Rover saga. Caterham has said as much, the following is a statement from Caterham to this effect (this can be found on the Caterham website).
"In response to the developing news surrounding the long-term future of MG Rover, the management of Caterham Cars Ltd have spoken to Powertrain Ltd, the division responsible for the production of the K Series engine.
As a separate subsidiary of Phoenix Holdings Ltd, the senior management of Powertrain have reaffirmed their position and advised Caterham that it is 'business as usual' as far as they are concerned.
"Production has continued. There are no supply issues, so the fulfilment of customer orders will be unaffected," said a spokesperson.
Powertrain management will maintain close dialogue with Caterham Cars as discussions continue over the coming weeks.
ENDS"
Also as Famine said, the Elise now runs with the Toyota Celica engine and gearbox and the new Caterham CSR is running a Cosworth tuned 2.3 litre Ford Duratec unit in either 200bhp or 260bhp form. With this both Caterham and Lotus are in a position to be unaffected by any sudden loss of K-series units, the same would be true of anyone else using these for the production of Kitcars, etc. Most of these manufacturers have always been ready to stick whatever engine a customer wants in the cars.
- 6,584
- Kent, UK
- GTP_Jondot
Sniffs
Nope. Their cars are dreadful, and were too expencive to begin with. Now there's no warranty or official dealerships to go to, their prices are going to do back flips. If they were TVRs or some other classy make, rather than bits of old hondas, slapped together with no symmetry.
Not the people who build them's fault, it's Rover hq that's to blame.
