MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.

[prisonermonkeys]

You forget that the rebels have seized equipment with the capability to shoot down Ukrainian military aircraft flying at high altittude as they have been doing it all week.

Again, this is a case of a poor choice of words on your part. You described the episode between the OSCE and separatists as "an hour-long standoff", which implies that two armed forces were facing one another, with tensions running so high that exchanging fire was a very real possible outcome - hence the confusion among users, since you again posted something that contradicted what the available sources said.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Could you post one please?

Seen footage on the Beeb and the reporter says he saw that himself :\

 

[SniperRed3]

Again, this is a case of a poor choice of words on your part. You described the episode between the OSCE and separatists as "an hour-long standoff", which implies that two armed forces were facing one another, with tensions running so high that exchanging fire was a very real possible outcome - hence the confusion among users, since you again posted something that contradicted what the available sources said.

I'm quoting the media which is what you told me to do.

First OSCE investigators to the scene retreat after hour-long standoff with armed separatists who fired warning shots

This is exactly what it says in this source here.

 

[Touring Mars]

"an hour-long standoff"

That is exactly what the article says... it does not imply "that two armed forces were facing one another" at all - it is perfectly clear that one side is the unarmed inspectors and the other a heavily armed rebel unit, some of which were drunk according to other reports, and at least one shot was fired when the inspectors ventured beyond what the rebels would accept. I don't think SniperRed3's interpretation is inaccurate or misleading in any way - on the contrary, I think it is stark-staringly obvious what is going on here.

 

[SniperRed3]

I have made some decent contributions in this thread for example a few pages ago I stated how the plane's trajectory was different to the previous flights using my own initiative. But you can't please some people.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I have made some decent contributions in this thread for example a few pages ago I stated how the plane's trajectory was different to the previous flights using my own initiative. But you can't please some people.

I wouldn't crow too much dude, a lot of what you've posted has been made up, unsourcable and, in my opinion, sometimes silly and generally unhelpful. You've been prompted to do a little more research and, in this case, it's paid off

 

[prisonermonkeys]

And you have made some posts that were grossly inaccurate. Whatever goodwill you might have built up with your initiative was burned up pretty quickly.

Anyway, the BBC is reporting that the separatists are not only removing parts of the wreckage, but close to forty bodies.

 

[SniperRed3]

Could we get a source for the wreckage removal?

 

[Dennisch]

Could we get a source for the wreckage removal?

Just about every news site.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

And I post from a mobile, so the URLs don't always work.

 

[SniperRed3]

I'm talking about the footage which shows them taking things away.

 

[GTPorsche]

OH yes.. that's going to be easy to find footage of, especially since the militia is just going to let people film them committing these crimes...

Off to find some.. brb.

 

[Xilor]

The only "source" of that information is the Ukrainian government running its mouth so I'd take it with a grain of salt.

 

[TenEightyOne]

A sobering list of "twists of fate" on the Beeb, I hadn't realised that the steward who "swapped on" was the husband of the stewardess who "swapped off" the missing MA flight.

Notably the "family that lost members in both accidents" seem to be slightly more "extended" than first reported although the fact remains.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The only "source" of that information is the Ukrainian government running its mouth so I'd take it with a grain of salt.

You make it sound like they are less credible than infowars.

 

[Dotini]

Apparently the OSCE got a cursory look at the crash site, and then were hustled away. I suppose that's doing pretty well for a human rights organization. As for the protocol of proper aircraft accident investigations in war zones, that may be substantially undefined. I don't know. I will hazard a guess that Maylasia Airlines will face a terrible judgment in court when it comes to the lawsuits, but the knuckle-draggers will get off Scot free. It's a question of who has the money. The newly enriched Kiev government might well be left holding the bag!

Like Tyrion Lannister said in the dungeons of King's Landing, "If you're looking for justice, you've come to the wrong place".

 

[mister dog]

I can't get out of my head how these people died a horrible death, their plane being ripped apart at 10.000 km's in the sky. I wonder if the lack of oxygen and freezing temperatures at that altitude would have caused a quick death, or if they would have realized it all and experienced the fall towards the ground?

 

[Xilor]

You make it sound like they are less credible than infowars.

In this situation they pretty much are, it's a golden opportunity for them to get the entire international community behind them so obviously they will assign as much blame as they can on the separatists and Russia.

Meanwhile, the Russian Defence Ministry denies that any of their weaponry has crossed the border into Ukraine.
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741417
If that is to be believed, the BUK missile systems were already in Ukrainian territory when the conflict started.

 

[SniperRed3]

An OSCE spokesman said that access to the site had been controlled by armed men, with one firing shots into the air and the 25-man observer team left the crash site after just over an hour
Source

 

[Dennisch]

I can't get out of my head how these people died a horrible death, their plane being ripped apart at 10.000 km's in the sky. I wonder if the lack of oxygen and freezing temperatures at that altitude would have caused a quick death, or if they would have realized it all and experienced the fall towards the ground?

There are eye witness reports of bodies falling out of the sky. And reports of bodies found over an 18 square km area.

Also, there is now footage of the OVSE arriving at the scene and being held at a distance from the wreckage making it pretty much impossible to investigate the crash.

 

[mister dog]

There are eye witness reports of bodies falling out of the sky. And reports of bodies found over an 18 square km area.

Also, there is now footage of the OVSE arriving at the scene and being held at a distance from the wreckage making it pretty much impossible to investigate the crash.

Yes that bodies fell over a large distance i know, i just hope they were already dead by the time they fell down and they didn't have to suffer.

Regarding the investigation i can already predict it's gonna be a total mess, as the Russians will do everything they can to try and blame the Ukranians even though the evidence against them is already overwhelming.

 

[SniperRed3]

Also Ukraine has accused the rebels of sending 38 bodies to a morgue in Donestk. Source
Also a fire broke out at the crash site further adding to the damage.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

In this situation they pretty much are, it's a golden opportunity for them to get the entire international community behind them so obviously they will escalate the situation.

Somebody shot down a passenger jet and killed three hundred innocent people - including children - over their airspace.

I'd say things are escalated enough as is.

 

[kennylmao]

A sobering list of "twists of fate" on the Beeb, I hadn't realised that the steward who "swapped on" was the husband of the stewardess who "swapped off" the missing MA flight.

That's just tragic.

 

[Rage Racer]

You forget that the rebels have seized equipment with the capability to shoot down Ukrainian military aircraft flying at high altittude as they have been doing it all week. Edit: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/...egedly-downed-malaysian-airlines-buk-launcher

First, I told already, they could not shoot such a high target without a Kupol radar station. Did they have it?
Second, the Ukrainian military jets were shot with MANPADs, because they were not flying on such altitude.
And third, the seized Buk launchers were told to be damaged and inoperable. It was confirmed by Ukrainian sources before the crash. It's not the kind of equipment that can be repaired in a field.

 

[Pilitev]

I've got a video where they show throwing things into a dump truck but it's very graphic so posting it here isn't possible

 

[TenEightyOne]

I've got a video where they show throwing things into a dump truck but it's very graphic so posting it here isn't possible

Please may I have the link via PM, if you still have it?

 

[Xilor]

Regarding the investigation i can already predict it's gonna be a total mess, as the Russians will do everything they can to try and blame the Ukranians even though the evidence against them is already overwhelming.

Pro-Russian separatists, not Russia, there is a big difference. And a lot of the evidence is debatable or hasn't been verified by slightly less biased sources then the Ukrainian govt. as of yet.


Russia is actually playing a very active role in the investigation, something recognized by Malaysia: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/19/us-ukraine-crisis-malaysia-russia-idUSKBN0FO0BU20140719

 

[Rage Racer]

evidence against them is already overwhelming.

Not even close to "overwhelming".

 

[mister dog]

Not even close to "overwhelming".

You're Russian, so i can't blame you as your media is under Putin's control, but here's a little chronologic summary:

BUK missile launcher, first shown on twitter as captured later deleted by Russian seperatists:

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

Russian seperatist leader boasted on twitter of downing Antonov just as MH17 was shot down (tweet later deleted):

http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/4286/20140717/malaysia-airlines-separatist-leader-boasted.htm

Phonecall between seperatists and Russian colonel when they realized they ****ed up:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...pped-conversation-full-transcript-356545.html

Looks pretty overwhelming to me.