MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.
- Thread starter Dennisch
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- Moscow
- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
Interesting part:
So... Did the investigation exclude the possibility of a jet shooting the MH17 down?
Somehow Ukraine still refuses to reveal the data of their military flights on that day.
- 13,827
- Down under
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
But the separatists were clearly expecting to find one. Going by the footage, there was some confusion over exactly what the separatists had done. We know that they had been targeting military transport flights in the area in the week before, but the Buk missile represents a big step up in terms of hardware. The sort of hardware that they would need to target a Sukhoi. I think that lends credibility to the theory that they were targeting one plane and shot down another. The cynics among us might suggest that they were trying to get their story straight by planting the idea of a Sukhoi shooting down MH17, but it seems to have been filmed in the immediate aftermath of the disaster, and they are clearly searching for some evidence of the plane's origins in the video. There's also talk of a pilot crawling away some distance from the site, which makes me think that a Sukhoi might have been brought down separately, because I doubt that the pilots of MH17 would have survived.
- 31,545
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
Right after the crash stories came out that they targeted a Ukrainian cargo plane.
Remember the tweets that instantly disappeared when the error was found out?
News from Ukraine and Russia isn't trustworthy. They keep blaming each other with what seems facts pulled out of vodka filled asses.
As long as there isn't an official report given to the public, it all remains speculation. Maybe the report contains that satellite imagery from the USA that supposedly exists.
But it seems just that it's taking far too long to get the investigation finished. Let's hope that it is for the good of the case and it results in an actual court case.
Remember the tweets that instantly disappeared when the error was found out?
News from Ukraine and Russia isn't trustworthy. They keep blaming each other with what seems facts pulled out of vodka filled asses.
As long as there isn't an official report given to the public, it all remains speculation. Maybe the report contains that satellite imagery from the USA that supposedly exists.
But it seems just that it's taking far too long to get the investigation finished. Let's hope that it is for the good of the case and it results in an actual court case.
- 4,069
- Tallinn
They are really confused and trying to understand what just happened.
No confirmed reports of a downed military aircraft.
No reports of a Sukhoy pilots.
No parachutes found.
...
"Five parachutes jumped off this plane."
Did they mistook the paper rolls for parachutes?
And Strelkov claimed that they downed an Ukrainian transport airplane An-26 and maybe a Su-25.
"Just now, around Torez, An-26 is scattered somewhere behind the "Progress" mine.
We warned them- Don't fly in "our sky".
And here's a video-confirmation of a "birdfall"
Bird fell behind the terricon, living sector wasn't damaged.
Civilians are not hurt.
There's information of another downed airplane, presumably a Sukhoy."
No confirmed reports of a downed military aircraft.
No reports of a Sukhoy pilots.
No parachutes found.
...
"Five parachutes jumped off this plane."
Did they mistook the paper rolls for parachutes?
And Strelkov claimed that they downed an Ukrainian transport airplane An-26 and maybe a Su-25.
"Just now, around Torez, An-26 is scattered somewhere behind the "Progress" mine.
We warned them- Don't fly in "our sky".
And here's a video-confirmation of a "birdfall"
Bird fell behind the terricon, living sector wasn't damaged.
Civilians are not hurt.
There's information of another downed airplane, presumably a Sukhoy."
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- 4,572
- Moscow
- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
Well, one thing you should know about it, is that real war is not like a real-time strategy game: you never know the thrustworthy info about the actions of your own comrades. Those people who witnessed the crash from a distance could not even have an idea that it was a civilian Boeing flying to Malaysia. Everyone on the ground was sure that there are no planes in the air but Ukrainian (what kind of idiot would direct a civilian jet over a war zone?). So when a big white plane came down, no wonder that it was first recognized as a Ukrainian transport plane. And no wonder that the post was deleted since it turned out NOT actually an Antonov.
Just a small note: Strelkov's post does not say "WE did it" or anything. Just: "an An-26 was shot down", "There's information of another downed airplane, presumably a Sukhoy."
And to those who think the rebels were looting on the crash site (on that video): have you seen them putting the passengers' items into their own pockets? From what I see, they were trying to understand what happened. Searching for documents, to find out who the victims are and where are they from, does not equal to looting IMO.
Just a small note: Strelkov's post does not say "WE did it" or anything. Just: "an An-26 was shot down", "There's information of another downed airplane, presumably a Sukhoy."
And to those who think the rebels were looting on the crash site (on that video): have you seen them putting the passengers' items into their own pockets? From what I see, they were trying to understand what happened. Searching for documents, to find out who the victims are and where are they from, does not equal to looting IMO.
- 11,947
- Australia
- I_Grayson_Fox_I
It was clear that a passenger jet crashed if their going through peoples suitcases and luggage.
But saying don't let anyone near the crash site kinda says the opposite since they do not want anyone to help any victims if their alive, They also mentioned getting the black boxes.
Why would one want to take and keep the blackboxes rather than give them to the investigators.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
There's a distinction though. Firstly it seems that they weren't aware what had come down until they looked at the wreckage (as you note). Secondly, taking the FDRs would make it clear what they had... as a command decision it's understandable but it's not the same as the whole troop looting belongings.
The ground area was a war zone, why would they want to let anybody in to wander around? I'm not saying it's a good or proper situation but I think you're taking A to prove B.
- 4,069
- Tallinn
He clearly hints that they did it naming this situation as "another birdfall" and "we warned them"
And no, I don't think that they are looting on this video. They are trying to understand and looking for any kind of thing that will show that this was a military aircraft.
- 4,572
- Moscow
- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
Well, the place was unsafe, so there's nothing suspicious about keeping the civvies away. But they did let the firemen - the professional rescuers - to the site. Although it seemed obvious that there was no one to rescue.
Obviously, to keep them safe as an important evidence. And they did hand them over to the investigators after all.
It could be just unnoticed. Ukrainian army has lost about 10 (or even more, I don't remember exactly) military planes and helicopters during the conflict, there was a "birdfall" as the rebels called it. But their wreckages are not as popular on the media as the MH17's.
Look: a Sukhoi is mentioned in the message on the Strelkov's page (where they report an "An-26" downed). The rebels on the crash site (who did not see that message) talk about a Su attack plane, too. Coincidence?
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Unless they think that they might have hit an S100? That used to fly a couple of Ukrainian routes including Sheremetvyo to Donetsk.
Another potential explanation is that it hasn't occurred to them for a minute that this could be the result of a ground-to-air engagement but that it's been shot down by more "conventional" means.
- 4,069
- Tallinn
I doubt that it's possible to miss a crash site of a Su-25 attacker in that area. And it would have been very important as it is tied to the Boenig.
Coincidence? I think not...
He probably was very happy to hear the first report, so he quickly posted that message without confirming the situation. He was a Defense Minister at that time.
Also, LifeNews had enough time to make a news report about the downed "Antonov".
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
UN tribunal vote; 11 in favour, three abstentions... and one unsuprising veto.
- 31,545
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
Kudos for Russia, once again.
Why oh why does Russia need access to the crash site or investigation? Nothing but the weapon* has any link to Russia. It's getting annoying that the rest of the world doesn't stand up and smack Russia silly until the people of Russia realise that their government is nothing but a bunch of corrupt idiots bringing back the Iron Curtain and all the misery it brings with it.
*unconfirmed but highly possible.
Why oh why does Russia need access to the crash site or investigation? Nothing but the weapon* has any link to Russia. It's getting annoying that the rest of the world doesn't stand up and smack Russia silly until the people of Russia realise that their government is nothing but a bunch of corrupt idiots bringing back the Iron Curtain and all the misery it brings with it.
*unconfirmed but highly possible.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Because the separatists were acting in their name. They're afraid that this will be used against them - and can you really blame them when politicians call for a full and impartial investigation with one breath and then accuse Russia of being involved with the next? They're afraid that if the lose access to the crash site and/or the ability to contribute to the investigation, then it will be manipulated to a foregone conclusion. Their fears about our intentions are the same as our fears about theirs.
- 4,572
- Moscow
- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
Because Russia is accused of this. Some people don't see the difference between "pro-Russian rebels" and "Russian military", simplifying it to "Russians". And I would be annoyed by some Dutch (or Australians, or anyone else) asking me in online games chat "Russians, why did YOU shoot the MH17?".
Not just Russia though, the Buk-M1 system may have links to Ukraine as well.
Also, the United States are taking part in the investigation, but nothing but the plane manufacturer has any links to them. Uhm, satellites have, too, but it's already has been said...
What do you mean by "smack"?
Well, it may be so (although, these people have elected this government, and it's their own concern), but do you know anyone better to replace this government with? The Ukrainian "revolution" shows that in this part of the world, a bunch of corrupt idiots can only be changed for another bunch of corrupt idiots, just pro-Western. I don't want another Yeltsin here. And if the regime is changed in a violent way (like in Ukraine), it could provoke a civil war. I don't want to fight my own people in some "Ural People's Republic" for money of some oligarchs.
Also, I don't think our government is bringing another Iron Curtain back - they have lots of property abroad. And Putin has his daughters living in Netherlands.
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
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Dotini
(Banned)
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- CR80_Shifty
I'm well satisfied there's to be no "tribunal" to punish the criminals until a competent investigation is completed. Only in an Alice in Wonderland world does punishment precede the investigation. You know darn well the NATO nations and the Ukrainian coup have decided as an article of faith the Russians are in the wrong, first, last and always. So far, the investigation lacks the necessary facts, data and transparency to convince me that it's at all believable. If the American military satellite coverage can reveal who the villains are, why not show it? That it is not shown is persuasive that it is hidden in order to advance an obvious military and political agenda of revolution in Ukraine. IMO, it's Victoria Nuland and her former boss Hillary Clinton who ought to be kneeling before a tribunal.
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- Hammerhead Garage
Dutch prosecutors say that fragments found in the MH17 wreckage can be traced back to Russia:
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-...site-may-be-from-russian-made-missile/6690062
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-...site-may-be-from-russian-made-missile/6690062
VolkswagenX
(Banned)
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I wonder how long it will be before the Russians deny that there is even a place called Russia ...
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- Hammerhead Garage
On a related note, here is a story on the "Troll Factory", an agency dedicated to influencing online debate on social media:
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-...-factory-internet-forums-social-media/6692318
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-...-factory-internet-forums-social-media/6692318
Dotini
(Banned)
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- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
It won't be long. Once the US has effected regime change in Russia, the place will be split into profit generating regions controlled by ourselves and our allies. We will be free to name them whatever we like.
VolkswagenX
(Banned)
- 1,532
- Netherlands
Do tot eve care about what happend? Or are you just about posting as much anti russian nonsense as you can?
- 31,545
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
I think the point PM is making is that little to nothing trustworthy comes from Russia's news agencies and government.
- 4,572
- Moscow
- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
>Russian-made Buk missile
Well, it could not be Ukrainian-made anyway, because Ukraine got its Buks from the Soviet Union. But who cares about such little details? The missile is Russian-made, so we know who did it. Also, since the Kalashnikov rifle is the most common firearm in the world, feel free to accuse Russia of backing terrorists all over the world.
Well, it could not be Ukrainian-made anyway, because Ukraine got its Buks from the Soviet Union. But who cares about such little details? The missile is Russian-made, so we know who did it. Also, since the Kalashnikov rifle is the most common firearm in the world, feel free to accuse Russia of backing terrorists all over the world.
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