Michael Jackson dies

[Liquid]

I'm not sure what your point is here. The concept of someone being innocent until proven guilty is a good one. Is that not the basic presumption that we should have toward people? Or would you rather that we did not protect anyone in the face of a mere allegation?

Nowhere did I state otherwise.

There are innumerable cases and/or examples of people using their wealth, influence, contacts or power to cover up crimes, intimidate witnesses, bribe law enforcement, deflect attention and evade investigation even if the facts don't come to light until after a guilty verdict or even a death.

"We" may be intolerant of sinners, as Dotini's post said, but there are also people who have been willing to protect sinners too.

 

[Danoff]

I don't think people should stop listening to his music if they enjoy it - I grew up listening to 'Thriller' and 'Bad', and I'm not about to delete them from my iPod... but - I won't be listening to Jackson on Spotify or any other revenue source, and I totally agree with radio stations or other media outlets who may not wish to contribute to funding his estate, either by paying royalties or promoting his music to new audiences.

I'm not actually sure what the problem is with funding his estate. Maybe it's in the documentary, maybe there are still some people that are alive and benefiting who were accomplices in his alleged criminal acts. But if not, his estate is not him (anymore). Funding it does not (apparently) go towards harming anyone.

 

[Touring Mars]

I'm not actually sure what the problem is with funding his estate. Maybe it's in the documentary, maybe there are still some people that are alive and benefiting who were accomplices in his alleged criminal acts. But if not, his estate is not him (anymore). Funding it does not (apparently) go towards harming anyone.

Jackson's royalties (over $2 billion since his death) have allowed his estate to launch legal actions against anyone who dares to speak up against Jackson. In that regard, the money being earned by Jackson's music today could easily contribute to harming people by helping to silence or discredit his alleged victims and their families.

 

[Danoff]

Jackson's royalties (over $2 billion since his death) have allowed his estate to launch legal actions against anyone who dares to speak up against Jackson. In that regard, the money being earned by Jackson's music today could easily contribute to harming people by helping to silence or discredit his alleged victims and their families.

Ah. So it's really a separate issue from Jackson's misdeeds. You're considering the estate to be acting in a separate way that you can't support today. Yea I understand not wanting to help fund that.

 

[Dotini]

I'm waiting for the angry and righteous mob to rush to judgement, take the task of exacting justice and revenge upon itself, then finally topple and burn all works and images of the offenders. Wholesale justice by guillotine, sledgehammer and torch is par for the course in pure democracy.

 

[Danoff]

I'm waiting for the angry and righteous mob to rush to judgement, take the task of exacting justice and revenge upon itself, then finally topple and burn all works and images of the offenders. Wholesale justice by guillotine, sledgehammer and torch is par for the course in pure democracy.

I have no idea what you're talking about. First of all, Jackson is already dead. Second of all, Jackson was not a feudal lord. Third of all, it's impossible to rush to judgment in this case, these offenses occurred long ago. Fourth, if each individual wants to get rid of their copies of the music and videos, and refuse to listen to or watch them them, how is that anyone's business than theirs, and what does it have to do with democracy?

 

[Northstar]

Some have long believed the accusations (in both cases).

And I'm one of them. I'm just curious why it's taking documentaries for the rest of society to take the accusations seriously when they've existed for some time.

 

[TexRex]

And I'm one of them. I'm just curious why it's taking documentaries for the rest of society to take the accusations seriously when they've existed for some time.

For what it's worth, I don't know that documentaries deserve all of the credit. I think more attention is being paid to "nobody" victims and the celebrities who allegedly victimized them are being viewed in a vastly different light, of which Cosby is a pretty good example. I'd even argue that such documentaries are given a better chance (for good or ill) now than they were before.

 

[Biggles]

I recently watched the Netflix Jackson documentary "This Is It" pieced together from clips shot of the preparations for his last, never completed tour. It shows a 50 year old man, still an amazing performer - singer, dancer, composer - being treated like a demi-god by the assembled supporting cast of dancers/musicians/singers/engineers/producers etc. What is striking, aside from his obvious talents, is how totally weird Jackson was. It's most visible in what he did to is face. That is not "normal" behaviour & I would say Jackson was a very, very troubled, unhappy man.

He was apparently severely abused by his father during his childhood & youth. I suspect this is often the case with abusive individuals - they, themselves, were often the victims of abusive behaviour. I think it's clear in Michael Jackson's case that his own abusive behaviour was enabled by everyone surrounding him & profiting from him, including some of the parents of the kids who had "sleep-overs". It's all pretty weird & sad.

 

[Danoff]

I would say Jackson was a very, very troubled, unhappy man.

I actually wonder if he were alive today whether he would be a she.

He was apparently severely abused by his father during his childhood & youth. I suspect this is often the case with abusive individuals - they, themselves, were often the victims of abusive behaviour. I think it's clear in Michael Jackson's case that his own abusive behaviour was enabled by everyone surrounding him & profiting from him, including some of the parents of the kids who had "sleep-overs". It's all pretty weird & sad.

Was he a sexual abuse victim? I've heard claims of other physical abuse.

 

[VBR]

I've heard rumours in the past, but, never much more than that. I just finished watching the first part, & have to say that I found the two guys testimony to be credible as well as quite compelling. The programme has left me feeling sick to the stomach though...

 

[DesertPenguin]

"This Is It" is a great window into the music making process that he has and seeing him in a vulnerable state.

 

[TenEightyOne]

After all the testimony over the years there's little doubt in my mind that Jackson was a paedophile. He was also, self-evidently, a genius of the highest order. That kind of admiration makes it harder for me to reconcile the genius with the criminal. No smooth jokes, please. I also have little doubt that he was himself a victim of abuse (maybe sexual, definitely physical and mental) and that he grew up in the most unhealthy environment for any child - as a touring stage performer with adult equals. Still, I'm mindful that whatever the excuses the actions are the actions and it isn't right to buy one's way out of consequences.

I think the Jackson family have to take note. To me it seems the value of the MJ back-catalogue is too great to let go, but then this whole sad saga is seemingly about money over truth.

 

[Touring Mars]

I'm waiting for the angry and righteous mob to rush to judgement, take the task of exacting justice and revenge upon itself, then finally topple and burn all works and images of the offenders.

I expect Jackson's record sales will explode, as people buy his albums just to burn them...

 

[Dennisch]

I expect Jackson's record sales will explode, as people buy his albums just to burn them...

They'll download them, and then delete them. Modern times. Modern solutions.

 

[TexRex]

I expect Jackson's record sales will explode, as people buy his albums just to burn them...

Sadly, this does seem likely. Of course it'll be thoroughly documented on social media too, because you didn't really do it if nobody saw.

*cough* *cough* Nike *cough* *cough*

 

[Robin]

I wonder if Sony now regrets paying a whopping $250 million to MJ's estate in 2010 (and apparently a $250 million extension in 2018) for the rights to his unreleased back catalogue from which they were going to make 10 posthumously released albums (only 2 have been made so far).

 

[Touring Mars]

I wonder if Sony now regrets paying a whopping $250 million to MJ's estate in 2010 for the rights to his unreleased back catalogue from which they were going to make 10 posthumously released albums (only 2 have been made so far).

I would imagine so.

-

I've just finished watching the second part of 'Leaving Neverland' and I would challenge anyone who still believes that Michael Jackson was not a paedophile to refute the content in this documentary. Unless it is a giant conspiracy perpetrated over decades that would make a flat-earther blush, one has to conclude that the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of the idea that Jackson was a skilled, predatory paedophile.

The documentary is not so much accusatory (Jackson is dead, after all) as it is much more focused on the lives of those he abused, and how every aspect of that abuse has affected not just their own lives, but those of their families - past, present and future. It is quite telling that both principal accusers (if one can even call them that now) can describe in unerring detail just what the full impacts of sexual abuse are.

There is also some frankly sickening footage of Jackson's lawyers (and, for the record, these people are counted in what I would describe as 'Jackson's estate' i.e. his beneficiaries) claiming that they will crush anyone who attempts to defame Jackson... that pretty much tells you all you need to know about what these people are like - they are not even remotely interested in justice... and the extreme irony is that they had the audacity to claim that Jackson's accusers are movitated by money. It is truly sickening that these parasites have made millions from doing the precise thing that they appeared to rail against - making money from Michael Jackson.

 

[Northstar]

I think more attention is being paid to "nobody" victims and the celebrities who allegedly victimized them are being viewed in a vastly different light,

That's a very good point that I admit I didn't consider. Granted I still find it perplexing how both Jackson and Kelly managed to avoid being the target of public scrutiny as long as they did in the #MeToo era.

 

[TexRex]

That's a very good point that I admit I didn't consider. Granted I still find it perplexing how both Jackson and Kelly managed to avoid being the target of public scrutiny as long as they did in the #MeToo era.

Okay, so...I'm really not following the whole R. Kelly saga and I'd rather not put my foot in my mouth (if he is guilty and he is held accountable, great), but Michael's been dead for a considerable amount of time now and can't be held accountable if he did ("if" being used in the loosest manner possible) what individuals allege he did; he's not really the kind of target for #MeToo that others are. If the documentary has shed a light on the actions of truly despicable individuals working to protect the estate as I'm reading it has (I haven't seen any part of it), great, but they aren't really the kind of "out there, walking free" targets either.

 

[mustafur]

I thought it was obvious even when he was alive that he was a paedophile.

The Thing that made it weird was how he got away with any conviction despite it being Common knowledge.

 

[Tornado]

That's a very good point that I admit I didn't consider. Granted I still find it perplexing how both Jackson and Kelly managed to avoid being the target of public scrutiny as long as they did in the #MeToo era.

Well, Kelly got away with it the first time because he could sing. In fact, so thoroughly did he get away with it that I'm continually surprised by people who don't even remember the stuff from the previous decade, despite how popular of a whipping boy the trial and aftermath were on TV shows at the time.


I assume whatever his latest album was either wasn't too good or was too long ago.

 

[axletramp]

Louis Theroux has wade in quite heavily on the MJ topic.

 

[baldgye]

I’ve only watched the first half of the first episode and it makes for some hard watching.

Regardless of my opinions this entire thread makes for pretty interesting reading.

 

[Tina Branford]

Michael Jackson wasn't a damn pedophile. Just because a man like children and takes care of them doesn't make him a pedophile. Who, what, where, how? If one can't provide definitive and absolute evidence and thus prove that Michael was a ped then I call ********.

I guess to the accusers men whom are pediatricians are all pedo's too eh.. and while we're at it male preschool teachers or men that love their children.. FFS! Get over it guys! How would you feel being called a pedophile without proof?

 

[PzR Slim]

Michael Jackson wasn't a damn pedophile. Just because a man like children and takes care of them doesn't make him a pedophile. Who, what, where, how? If one can't provide definitive and absolute evidence and thus prove that Michael was a ped then I call ********.

I guess to the accusers men whom are pediatricians are all pedo's too eh.. and while we're at it male preschool teachers or men that love their children.. FFS! Get over it guys! How would you feel being called a pedophile without proof?

How would you feel having been abused as a kid and no one believing you?

 

[Brend]

Michael Jackson wasn't a damn pedophile. Just because a man like children and takes care of them doesn't make him a pedophile. Who, what, where, how? If one can't provide definitive and absolute evidence and thus prove that Michael was a ped then I call ********.

I guess to the accusers men whom are pediatricians are all pedo's too eh.. and while we're at it male preschool teachers or men that love their children.. FFS! Get over it guys! How would you feel being called a pedophile without proof?

You can take care of children without sleeping in the same bed as them for no reason mate.

 

[Liquid]

"Michael Jackson child abuse" is, in some ways, like "vaccines cause autism" or "the earth is flat". Just hear me out on this; it will never matter what supposition is presented, people will either blindly defend him or blindly crucify him.

Michael Jackson wasn't a damn pedophile. Just because a man like children and takes care of them doesn't make him a pedophile. Who, what, where, how? If one can't provide definitive and absolute evidence and thus prove that Michael was a ped then I call ********.

I guess to the accusers men whom are pediatricians are all pedo's too eh.. and while we're at it male preschool teachers or men that love their children.. FFS! Get over it guys! How would you feel being called a pedophile without proof?

I know the proof of guilt is on the side of the prosecution but this comes across as zealously defensive.

 

[Famine]

If one can't provide definitive and absolute evidence

What is "definitive and absolute evidence" of one human being having sexual contact with another in a closed, private environment?

Where is the "definitive and absolute evidence" of Jimmy Savile raping children, of Kevin Spacey grooming teenage boys, of Harvey Weinstein abusing his career-making/breaking power to have sex with young actresses and models?


Speaking of Kevin Spacey, he lost his entire career over the allegations of his behaviour with a 14-year old boy.

Robert Kelly married a 15-year old girl, and later allegedly filmed himself (he denies being the man in the video) having sex with a 14-year old girl (who also denied it was her in the video; the whole case fell apart because both parties denied it was them despite several other people identifying them both), and yet has had pretty much an uninterrupted music career since his alleged tastes were revealed 25 years ago.

13-year old Jordan Chandler entirely accurately described Michael Jackson's genitals (including the bit of his penis normally hidden from view in flaccid state) in a criminal case against Jackson, before Jackson settled with the Chandlers for a reported seven (and sometimes eight) figure sum - and police discovered (legal) books of semi-nude and nude children in his house - but despite that and several other cases, his own career was only paused by his death.

The allegations against Jackson and Kelly are far more serious, wide-ranging and damaging than those against Spacey (while the allegations again Spacey seem to show a man unperturbed by the age of the people he tries to force himself on, they do not seem to show someone with a direct preference for those below legal age), and yet they had careers that carried on decades after their actual criminal court cases (one which foundered after a high-value settlement, the other of which fell apart due to the alleged victim denying her presence in the video - although that may change as of 2019), while Spacey has lost his without ever being prosecuted.

It is bewildering why this is the case.

 

[Liquid]

13-year old Jordan Chandler entirely accurately described Michael Jackson's genitals (including the bit of his penis normally hidden from view in flaccid state)