Michael Jackson dies

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Who, what, where, how?
This is all explained in 'Leaving Neverland' - have you bothered to watch it?

How would you feel being called a pedophile without proof?
I would say 'show me your evidence'.

The fact is, however, there is a mountain of evidence (photos, videos, recordings and witness testimony) that proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that Jackson engaged in unusual, long-term relationships with young boys - this is not only undisputed, but verified repeatedly by Jackson himself. But the question is, what precisely was the true nature of those relationships? Only Jackson's lawyers and the individuals involved really know the truth.

One of the major issues here is that Jackson didn't consider himself an adult - and therefore, he likely didn't consider his relationships with children as inappropriate (although he did apparently know all too well that it was against the law). If his 'partners' had been over 18, there would be no issue - there was never any assertion of coercion or violence, and by all accounts these sexual acts were seemingly 'consensual' (albeit that consent cannot legally be given by a minor). But the flipside to this observation is that Jackson seemingly didn't think that there was an issue with having long-term (and, by many accounts, sexual) relationships with whom he considered as 'other children' (the insinuation being that he himself was also a child).

This goes a long way to understanding why some of his former partners have been so reluctant to accuse him of 'abuse' - because, at the time of it happening, it didn't feel like 'abuse' - on the contrary, sexual contact with Jackson was (apparently) perceived as evidence of the strength of their mutual commitment... however this would later be called into question for each individual as it became apparent that Jackson (clearly) had more than one 'special relationship'. It is also very possible (although I would say unlikely) that some of Jackson's closest relationships (e.g. with Macaulay Culkin) were not sexual relationships, meaningly that their personal testimony that Jackson was not a paedophile could very well be 100% truthful as far as they knew... but while Culkin's testimony carried a lot of weight, the same cannot be said for those who reported things very differently.

But while none of us can be certain as to the true extent, if any, of Jackson's sexual activities with young boys, there is hard evidence that Jackson owned copious quantities of homosexual pornographic and erotic literature including nude images of children. As far as I know he was not found guilty of possessing images of child sexual abuse, but the evidence that does exist stands in stark contrast to the assertion that Jackson was not sexually interested in young boys or homosexual.

The powerful and detailed testimony of Robson and Safechuck must be considered in the context of the available evidence and verifiable facts. And as such, their testimony is entirely consistent with the hypothesis that Jackson was a paedophile.
 
Roman Polanski is another one who has had a pretty reasonable career and supporters despite living in exile over sexual abuse charges for decades which he even pled guilty to! It does seem that peoples 'art' does blind a lot of the public to quite glaring hints that all is not right about them.
 
America has a long history of repression of healthy heterosexual urges. Ask Hugh Hefner if you can wake him from the dead.
 
I would hope that Jordan Chandler, Gavin Arvizo and maybe others feel they can come forward and tell their story. The director did reach out to them to be part of it but maybe seeing the reaction will change their minds.

If people haven't seen the now infamous Martin Bashir documentary it's also worth watching. This being the most disturbing bit of it...

 
America has a long history of repression of healthy heterosexual urges. Ask Hugh Hefner if you can wake him from the dead.
Ignoring, for a moment, the distinctly homophobic tone of the phrase "healthy heterosexual urges", what do these sentences have to do with the incredibly unhealthy underage (and not heterosexual) urges of Michael Jackson?

Did you post in the wrong thread?
 
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Roman Polanski is another one who has had a pretty reasonable career and supporters despite living in exile over sexual abuse charges for decades which he even pled guilty to! It does seem that peoples 'art' does blind a lot of the public to quite glaring hints that all is not right about them.

The blurring of enjoying someone's art vs. supporting the person behind the art cuts both ways. It causes people to irrationally defend someone whose art touched them in some way, and it causes people to refuse or discredit the art when that person is shown to be truly awful.

I assume that MJ is a pedophile, and have for quite some time now. Especially in light of recent events, but even before that, I don't think there's much possibility of the kind of evidence that could be presented to me that would convince me otherwise. My personal standards for believing MJ to be guilty don't have to align with the US court system. It doesn't have to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, because I'm not locking anyone away with the force of the US government. I'm merely holding a personal opinion, and I use a more lenient "preponderance of the evidence" threshold to form those kinds of opinions.

It does ruin my enjoyment of his music, at least a little. And that's sad, because those songs didn't rape and psychologically abuse any kids. Part of me says that I really need to separate those things in my mind, and just enjoy the art. That seems rational. But I still have a hard time doing it.
 
Watched part two yesterday night, & I found the last half hour to be utterly heart braking. The aftermath for the guys & their families was so incredibly hard hitting.


:(
 
It does ruin my enjoyment of his music, at least a little. And that's sad, because those songs didn't rape and psychologically abuse any kids. Part of me says that I really need to separate those things in my mind, and just enjoy the art. That seems rational. But I still have a hard time doing it.
I understand this completely. I'm pretty good at not letting an artist's remarks on political and/or social matters, or remarks in general, inhibit my enjoyment of their works, but allegations of heinous acts, particularly allegations that are substantiated as I'm given to understand these are, are more difficult to ignore.
 
Why? I'm not a big MJ fan but that's one that stands out for me. Why?!

Edit: WHY?!?!

Oh well, Ian Brown had a good take on it. Time will tell if that's sufficient separation.
 
Why? I'm not a big MJ fan but that's one that stands out for me. Why?!

Edit: Oh well, Ian Brown had a good take on it. Time will tell if that's sufficient separation.

People always told me be careful of what you do
And don't go around breaking young girls' hearts
And mother always told me be careful of who you love
And be careful of what you do 'cause the lie becomes the truth

(Maybe the word 'girls' is inaccurate, but you get the picture..)
 
Yeah, no, I got it. I was asking why you had to bring it up.

:P
Right, sorry :lol:

For the record, 'Billie Jean' is by far my favourite MJ song, and one of my favourite songs of the 80's - it's also a favourite from Vice City (as I'm sure you also know) - with reference to what @Danoff is saying, it is not really possible (or necessary) to stop appreciating a classic piece of art/work even if the artist turns out to be a deviant.
 
Right, sorry :lol:

For the record, 'Billie Jean' is by far my favourite MJ song, and one of my favourite songs of the 80's - it's also a favourite from Vice City (as I'm sure you also know) - with reference to what @Danoff is saying, it is not really possible (or necessary) to stop appreciating a classic piece of art/work even if the artist turns out to be a deviant.

Yea except for that voice in your head that comments on the song lyrics.

Billie Jean is not my lover, she's just a girl who...

who isn't a young boy and so of course she's not? Is that what you mean Michael?
 
For the record, 'Billie Jean' is by far my favourite MJ song, and one of my favourite songs of the 80's - it's also a favourite from Vice City (as I'm sure you also know)
It's one of just a handful of his that I can even name, and my preferred of that bunch. Funny enough, I think of "Eat It" before I even think of "Beat It"--ah, Weird Al.

with reference to what @Danoff is saying, it is not really possible (or necessary) to stop appreciating a classic piece of art/work even if the artist turns out to be a deviant.
That would be the rational way to view it. But emotions are frequently irrational.

Should it? I'd say it shouldn't. Can it? Absolutely. Sometimes a good song is just a good song, but more often than not, a song that I love transports me somewhere and I start to think about what it's telling me and the context of it in my life and even the circumstances of its recording. That's where this kind of information has the potential to spoil it.

I think it was you that clarified for parties involved in and/or observing a discussion that the artist known as Shag was actually Genesis "discoverer"* and convicted child molester Jonathan King. I remember how sick it made me feel when I heard of his conviction, and he wasn't even a member of the band.

*It surely would have happened without him, but still.
 
Ironically, these allegations make the lyrics to 'Billie Jean' even more plausible.
Yea except for that voice in your head that comments on the song lyrics.

Billie Jean is not my lover, she's just a girl who...

who isn't a young boy and so of course she's not? Is that what you mean Michael?
Oddly, there's a response song to Billie Jean. It's called Superstar, by Lydia Murdock...

 
If you really want to be disturbed then you should see Bubbles Burst* by Claypool Delirium. Sean Lennon was, of course, in Moonwalker when he was 13. He hasn't made any allegations that I'm aware of but he's clearly made some very specific artistic choices in this video. Noel Fielding's character... bloody hell :)



* One could write a whole essay analysing that title
 
If you really want to be disturbed then you should see Bubbles Burst* by Claypool Delirium. Sean Lennon was, of course, in Moonwalker when he was 13. He hasn't made any allegations that I'm aware of but he's clearly made some very specific artistic choices in this video. Noel Fielding's character... bloody hell :)



* One could write a whole essay analysing that title

Wow. And not in a good way...

We didn’t understand
Dancing with Peter Pan
What would be the result when we
Turned into young adults
:ill:
 
It was striking me as odd that the thread "Michael Jackson dies" keeps popping up in New Posts on the main forum list, as though he's died again (after hiw long?), but then I thought...he kind of has.

:indiff:
 
I'm not MJ fan and I always considered him to be weird and not in the good way, but shouldn't Robson and Safechuch be prosecuted for lying under oath when FBI investigated MJ in the past? And their parents for participation in a child prostitution when we are at it?
 
but shouldn't Robson and Safechuch be prosecuted for lying under oath when FBI investigated MJ in the past?

I don't know the laws regarding what protection witnesses have, but even if they could be charged I'd imagine it would be career suicide for any prosecutor that tried to file charges.

And their parents for participation in a child prostitution when we are at it?

Do you have any evidence to back this up?
 
I don't know the laws regarding what protection witnesses have, but even if they could be charged I'd imagine it would be career suicide for any prosecutor that tried to file charges.



Do you have any evidence to back this up?

Don't take it overly seriously, I was thinking aloud how this can backfire, of course nobody will prosecute poor victims.
 
I'm not MJ fan and I always considered him to be weird and not in the good way, but shouldn't Robson and Safechuch be prosecuted for lying under oath when FBI investigated MJ in the past? And their parents for participation in a child prostitution when we are at it?

The parents perhaps, depending on what they knew at the time. But I don’t think it’s reasonable to hold a victim of sexual abuse accountable for lying about it, especially if it happened at a very young age.

In any case, it first needs to be proved that MJ did commit these crimes.
 
it first needs to be proved that MJ did commit these crimes.

That's the thing, for many people there's enough proof in plain sight... but there can never be a definitive judgement of proof against a dead man. There's no proof against Jimmy Savile, for example.

shouldn't Robson and Safechuch be prosecuted for lying under oath when FBI investigated MJ in the past?

Again, without legal proof of a crime for them to perjure themselves against that's not going to happen, and I can't see there being a big appetite amongst prosecutors to push such a case.

And their parents for participation in a child prostitution when we are at it?

The parents have to live with the morality of any decision they made. Hopefully that's punishment enough.
 
In law can you commit perjury in a case against someone who was alive at the time but is dead now?

Strange question, I know.
 
In law can you commit perjury in a case against someone who was alive at the time but is dead now?

Strange question, I know.

Yes, if you can be proved to have lied - your offence is against the court rather than any specific other party in the same court. In this case... unless irrefutable evidence (e.g. photograph, self-confession) comes to light showing previous testimony to be false then I think it would take a Guilty verdict against MJ for perjury to be proved.
 
Robson, Safechuck and any one else who testified on behalf of Jackson in the past are at risk of being charged with perjury - that alone explains why some may never change their story, but it also proves that those who have changed their testimony are extremely brave and clearly motivated by something beyond any possible personal gain.

-

The Sean Lennon video posted above is truly incredible - and reading some of the comments, it's clear that there is still a deep level of mistrust aimed at those who may accuse Jackson of any wrongdoing. Allegedly Sean Lennon has denied that the song/video are veiled references to Michael Jackson's alleged paedophilia, and some even say that he may have created this impression unintentionally. Ironically, that is about as believable as his father's nonsense about Lucy in the The Sky with Diamonds. Indeed, the parallels with this are unmistakable.

The choice of imagery, coupled with the lyrical content of the song, are both extremely clever but also (in my view at least) unequivocally deliberate. There is no way that this was 'unintentional'. The entire production is loaded with a very deliberate double-meaning, hence it appears quite surprising that Lennon himself refutes the assertion that the song is an expose of Jackson's sexual proclivities. If one wanted to create a song and video that made stark allusions to Jackson's sexual behaviour without making any direct (and therefore libelous) accusations, then you could scarcely do it better than this - hence, it is nigh on impossible to countenance the idea that it may have been done unintentionally.

Of course, if Lennon did (or does) come out and say what the song is really about, he would find himself in court and the subject of a massive lawsuit. As has just been said, it is very hard to prove that one's allegations are the truth, and unless Lennon has physical evidence to prove that he knows Jackson was a paedophile (I'm guessing that he does know, but likely will not be able to prove it in a court of law), then the onus would be on him to prove something that he cannot, and therefore he would likely be successfully sued for defamation. Thus, the story told in this video is merely an allusion - using the device of the (utterly bonkers) Bubbles story, to basically tell the story of Jackson's paedophilia without putting himself at risk of ruin.

Michael Jackson may have been dead for almost ten years, but his career is still very much alive - and while that remains the case, his reputation will remain protected by his lawyers.
 
Yes, if you can be proved to have lied - your offence is against the court rather than any specific other party in the same court. In this case... unless irrefutable evidence (e.g. photograph, self-confession) comes to light showing previous testimony to be false then I think it would take a Guilty verdict against MJ for perjury to be proved.
And to reiterate, evidence of wrongdoing is only part of criminal charges being pressed.
 
Edit: posted because relevant to the discussion. I don't know enough information about this to have an opinion either way.

https://www.thisisinsider.com/latoy...abwDP4SdVGPNYXKj8mwVk5lLwZnoA1Uui7Uc9fruunBOc

Screenshot_20190309-183001_Chrome.jpg
 
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