Motorsports Trivia Thread!

[Dotini]

@crooky369
@Pete05
The Belgian GP at Spa is a good example of the difficulties we face when comparing pre-war speed to postwar. Though the circuit was basically the same general configuration, the exact circuit varied considerably from year to year, as did the weather and condition of the surface.

Year...circuit length...FL....driver/car.....................average speed (calculations from William Court, Power and Glory)
1934 14.90 km........5:45 Brivio, Bugatti
1935 14.95 km........5:23 Von Brauchitsch, M-B
1937 14.864 km......5:04.7 Lang, M-B..................108.8 mph
1939 14.50 km........5:19.9 Lang, M-B
1947 14.066 km......5:18 Wimille, Alfa 158
1949 14.066 km......5:19 Farina, Alfa 158
1950 14.12 km........4:34.1 Farina, Alfa 158...........115.4 mph

Discussion:
Unknown to me is the exact nature of the circuit variations and weather, and whether the circuit lengths are accurate. The only firm conclusions we might draw is that the pre-war rules slowed the cars after 1937 on some circuits, and Alfa made massive increases in the power of its Tipo 158 by 1950. So, in the case of Spa, the pre-war fastest race lap record was broken by 1950. But were the cars of 1950 really faster? Maybe not. I think we will have to examine some other circuits.



Note that the 1937 circuit (below, not to scale) had significant extra fiddly bits to maneuver through.

 

[Pete05]

@crooky369
@Pete05
The Belgian GP at Spa is a good example of the difficulties we face when comparing pre-war speed to postwar. Though the circuit was basically the same general configuration, the exact circuit varied considerably from year to year, as did the weather and condition of the surface.

Year...circuit length...FL....driver/car.....................average speed (calculations from William Court, Power and Glory)
1934 14.90 km........5:45 Brivio, Bugatti
1935 14.95 km........5:23 Von Brauchitsch, M-B
1937 14.864 km......5:04.7 Lang, M-B..................108.8 mph
1939 14.50 km........5:19.9 Lang, M-B
1947 14.066 km......5:18 Wimille, Alfa 158
1949 14.066 km......5:19 Farina, Alfa 158
1950 14.12 km........4:34.1 Farina, Alfa 158...........115.4 mph

Discussion:
Unknown to me is the exact nature of the circuit variations and weather, and whether the circuit lengths are accurate. The only firm conclusions we might draw is that the pre-war rules slowed the cars after 1937 on some circuits, and Alfa made massive increases in the power of its Tipo 158 by 1950. So, in the case of Spa, the pre-war fastest race lap record was broken by 1950. But were the cars of 1950 really faster? Maybe not. I think we will have to examine some other circuits.



Note that the 1937 circuit (below, not to scale) had significant extra fiddly bits to maneuver through.

You mention the Alfa 158/159 so I consulted my book Grand Prix for some facts & figures.
To quote:
"When first bench tested, it produced 180 bhp. When it was first raced (at Leghorn in 1938), it gave 195 bhp @ 7000 rpm and in 1939 its output was raised to 225 bhp @ 7500 rpm.
The 158 Alfetta was raced ten times before Italy entered the war. The cars, together with much Alfa Corse equipment, spent the last two years of WW2 hidden in the village of Melzo. They were then brought out and run almost as soon as racing resumed - and suffered, at St.Cloud, the only total team failure in the career of the 158. From 1947 however, they began the long run of success with a two-staged supercharger and 175 bhp as Grand Prix cars. By 1948, the 158/47 engine was producing 350 bhp.
When the 158s were raced again in 1950 and 1951, chief designer Orazio Satta and team manager Battista Guidotti faced an escalating challenge - simply to maintain a competitive edge with their ageing design. More an more power was squeezed from the engine - 370 bhp early in 1950, as much as 425 bhp @ 9300 rpm on the bench in 1951."

Using Spa Francorchamps as an example, I have found the following lap times quoted for a lap length of 14.08 km/8.749 miles.

1950 - Pole Position 4:37:0
G.Farina, Alfa Romeo
Fastest Lap 4:34:1 @ 115.1 mph
G.Farina, Alfa Romeo

1951 - Pole Position 4:25:0
J.M.Fangio, Alfa Romeo
Fastest Lap 4:22:1 @ 120.5 mph
J.M.Fangio, Alfa Romeo

1952 - Pole Position 4:37:0
A.Ascari, Ferrari
Fastest Lap 4:54:0 @ 107.44 mph
A.Ascari, Ferrari (wet race?)

1953 - Pole Position 4:30:0
J.M.Fangio, Maserati
Fastest Lap 4:34:0 @ 115.27 mph
F.Gonzalez, Maserati

1955 - Pole Position 4:18:1
E.Castellotti, Lancia
Fastest Lap 4:20:6 @ 121.203 mph
J.M.Fangio, Mercedes

1956 - Pole Position 4:09:8
J.M.Fangio, Ferrari
Fastest Lap 4:14:7 @ 124.01 mph

1958 - Pole Position 3:57:1
M.Hawthorn, Ferrari
Fastest Lap 3:58:3 @ 132.357 mph

1960 - Pole Position 3:50:0
J.Brabham, Cooper
Fastest Lap 3:51:9 @ 135.434 mph
J.Brabham, Cooper
P.Hill, Ferrari
I.Ireland, Lotus

1961 - Pole Position 3:59:3
P.Hill, Ferrari
Fastest Lap 3:59:8 @ 131.53 mph
R.Ginther, Ferrari

1962 - Pole Position 3:57:0
G.Hill, BRM
Fastest Lap 3:55:6 @ 133:87 mph
J.Clark, Lotus-Climax

1963 - Pole Position 3:54:1
G.Hill, BRM
Fastest Lap 3:58:1 @ 132.46 mph
J.Clark, Lotus-Climax

1964 - Pole Position 3:50:9
D.Gurney, Brabham
Fastest Lap 3:49:2 @ 137.61 mph
D.Gurney, Brabham

1965 - Pole Position 3:45:4
G.Hill, BRM
Fastest Lap 4:12:9 @ 124.71 mph
J.Clark, Lotus-Climax (wet race?)

1966 - Pole Position 3:38:0
J.Surtees, Ferrari
Fastest Lap 4:18:7 @ 121.92 mph
J.Surtees, Ferrari (wet race?)

1967 - Pole Position 3:28:1
J.Clark, Lotus-Ford
Fastest Lap 3:31:9 @ 148.84 mph
D.Gurney, Eagle-Weslake

1968 - Pole Position 3:28:6
C.Amon, Ferrari
Fastest Lap 3:30:5 @ 149.83 mph

1970 - Pole Position 3:28:0
J.Stewart, March-Ford
Fastest Lap 3:27:4 @ 152.07 mph
C.Amon, March-Ford

If we just look at the numbers, we can see lap times tumbled by around a full minute in 20 years. What these numbers don't tell us though is, gains made in grip through tyres & suspension, advancement in braking & aero and, what was gained on the dyno and then taken away by engine formula regulations such as the drop from 2.5 litres to 1.5 for 1961 and the jump up to 3 litres for 1966.
It's is my understanding that the only constant in the comparison above is the circuit layout & lap distance itself.

 

[Dotini]

If we just look at the numbers, we can see lap times tumbled by around a full minute in 20 years. What these numbers don't tell us though is, gains made in grip through types & suspension, advancement in braking...

Great work there, @Pete05, the numbers tell a story but leave out important facts. I particular agree with your insight on tires, suspension and brakes. It is known that the Alfa 158/159 benefited from a change to smaller diameter, lighter wheels (lower unsprung weight), as well as advancement in brake friction materials. Totally unknown to me is any comprehensive history of the development of the racing tire. I feel sure that newer, better tires developed in competition between Pirelli, Engelbert, maybe Continental and others delivered a major but unquantified role in lowering lap times. I'm wondering if other readers know of any such history? I know the switch from cotton to nylon carcass plies sometime in the fifties made a big difference, and I'd like to know more about this sub-topic.

It is curious to think that at the beginning of the 2.5 liter Formula 1 to the end of the period in 1960, lap times at Spa went down nearly half a minute - yet the reported power of the engines actually declined slightly to the humble Coventry Climax unit used at the end.

 

[Dotini]

@crooky369
@Pete05
The Nurburgring is an excellent test of comparative speeds, prewar and postwar. The circuit remained the same, although the weather of course varied, and it would be very good to know about major repairs and resurfacing, if any, during the 25 year period under consideration here.

Year...circuit length.....FL..........driver/car.............Pole lap...driver/car
1932...22.810 km......10:49......Nuvolari A-R
1934...22.811 km......10:43.8...Stuck, A-U
1936...22.811 km.......9:56.3....Rosemeyer, A-U
1937...22.811 km.......9:53.4....Rosemeyer, A-U.....9:46.2...Rosemeyer, A-U
1938...22.811 km.....10:09.1....Seaman, M-B.........9:48.4...Von Brauchitsch M-B
1939...22.811 km.....10:24.2....Caracciolo, M-B......9:43.1...Lang, M-B
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1951...22.811 km.......9:55.8....Fangio, A-R............9:55.8...Ascari, Ferrari
1952...22.811 km.....10:05.1....Ascari, Ferrari.........9:56.0...Ascari, Ferrari
1953...22.811 km.......9:56.0....Ascari, Ferrari.........9:59.8...Ascari, Ferrari
1954...22.811 km.......9:55.1....Kling, M-B..............9:50.1...Fangio, M-B
1956...22.811 km.......9:41.6....Fangio, Ferrari.........9:51.2...Fangio, Ferrari
1957...22.811 km.......9:17.4....Fangio, Maserati.......9:25.6...Fangio, Maserati

Discussion:
It will be seen that it took 19 years to break the prewar lap record, and 20 to better the prewar pole time. It might be noted that in 1957, tires from Pirelli, Englebert, Continental, Dunlop and Avon could all be seen on the grid. Maserati in particular benefited in 1957 from a new Pirelli tire design, as well as refinements to its already excellent 250F chassis.

 

[Pete05]

@crooky369
@Pete05
The Nurburgring is an excellent test of comparative speeds, prewar and postwar. The circuit remained the same, although the weather of course varied, and it would be very good to know about major repairs and resurfacing, if any, during the 25 year period under consideration here.

Year...circuit length.....FL..........driver/car.............Pole lap...driver/car
1932...22.810 km......10:49......Nuvolari A-R
1934...22.811 km......10:43.8...Stuck, A-U
1936...22.811 km.......9:56.3....Rosemeyer, A-U
1937...22.811 km.......9:53.4....Rosemeyer, A-U.....9:46.2...Rosemeyer, A-U
1938...22.811 km.....10:09.1....Seaman, M-B.........9:48.4...Von Brauchitsch M-B
1939...22.811 km.....10:24.2....Caracciolo, M-B......9:43.1...Lang, M-B
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1951...22.811 km.......9:55.8....Fangio, A-R............9:55.8...Ascari, Ferrari
1952...22.811 km.....10:05.1....Ascari, Ferrari.........9:56.0...Ascari, Ferrari
1953...22.811 km.......9:56.0....Ascari, Ferrari.........9:59.8...Ascari, Ferrari
1954...22.811 km.......9:55.1....Kling, M-B..............9:50.1...Fangio, M-B
1956...22.811 km.......9:41.6....Fangio, Ferrari.........9:51.2...Fangio, Ferrari
1957...22.811 km.......9:17.4....Fangio, Maserati.......9:25.6...Fangio, Maserati

Discussion:
It will be seen that it took 19 years to break the prewar lap record, and 20 to better the prewar pole time. It might be noted that in 1957, tires from Pirelli, Englebert, Continental, Dunlop and Avon could all be seen on the grid. Maserati in particular benefited in 1957 from a new Pirelli tire design, as well as refinements to its already excellent 250F chassis.

@Dotini

I can take two things from this 20 year comparison versus my earlier example.
1. In my comparison at Spa from 1950-1970, the tyres varied wildly in not only construction and compound but also width whereas in the comparison above, the biggest variable would be the horsepower of the vehicles used. The width of the tyres didn't change a great deal at all.
Food for thought.

 

[Dotini]

@Dotini

I can take two things from this 20 year comparison versus my earlier example.
1. In my comparison at Spa from 1950-1970, the tyres varied wildly in not only construction and compound but also width whereas in the comparison above, the biggest variable would be the horsepower of the vehicles used. The width of the tyres didn't change a great deal at all.
Food for thought.

In 1937, the W125 Mercedes-Benz had to weigh under 750kg, and had 550-600hp.
In 1939, the W154 weighed about 850-910 kg and had as much as 475hp.
The 1951 Alfa-Romeo 158/159 weighed 710 kg and had as much as 400-420 hp.
The 1957 Maserati 250F weighed no less than 620 kg and had a solid 270hp.

The last front line F1 car to run on skinny tires (even then they had started to widen) was the 1965 Lotus 33, about 451 kg and 205 hp. It was considerably quicker than any of the above.

 

[TheCracker]

The last front line F1 car to run on skinny tires (even then they had started to widen) was the 1965 Lotus 33, about 451 kg and 205 hp. It was considerably quicker than any of the above.

Yeah, Sixties 'narrow' tyres were typically wider and on a smaller diameter wheel (7 inch wide, 13 inch diameter wheels) to those in the 50's (5-6 inch wide, 16-17 inch diameter wheels). The 50's GP tyres were again wider and shorter (smaller diameter) then pre-war machinery (2.5 - 4.5 inch wide, 17-19 inch diameter wheels). Pre-war GP cars basically ran on road car tyres too - hard compound etc. Comparison between tyres of these eras is pointless, they were all very different in terms of size and construction. 👍

 

[Dotini]

Yeah, Sixties 'narrow' tyres were typically wider and on a smaller diameter wheel (7 inch wide, 13 inch diameter wheels) to those in the 50's (5-6 inch wide, 16-17 inch diameter wheels). The 50's GP tyres were again wider and shorter (smaller diameter) then pre-war machinery (2.5 - 4.5 inch wide, 17-19 inch diameter wheels). Pre-war GP cars basically ran on road car tyres too - hard compound etc. Comparison between tyres of these eras is pointless, they were all very different in terms of size and construction. 👍

Was it in 1963 Jimmy Clark won 4 consecutive races on the same set of tires?

 

[TheCracker]

Was it in 1963 Jimmy Clark won 4 consecutive races on the same set of tires?

I don't know, but could well believe it. Those Dunlop Cr65's (or similar) that we still use today in historic racing, do last a good while (they're a softer compound these days too) A lighter car with no downforce on the sort of fast circuit they tended to race on those days, could be quite easy on a set of tyres. Chapman's liking of cutting weight (and corners) may have been a factor too.

 

[Liquid]

The game manual for Grand Prix Legends makes note of that fact by telling you that, of all the things to worry about with regards to the game's monstrous difficulty, you should not worry about tyre wear because tyres were expected to last for multiple races back in 1967.

 

[Dotini]

1937: 750 kg and 600 hp; 9:46.2 pole lap at the Nurburgring, 22.81 km
1939: 910 kg and 475 hp; 9:43.1
1951: 710 kg and 420 hp; 9:55.8
1954: 650 kg and 290 hp; 9:50.1
1957: 630 kg and 270 hp; 9:25.6
1965: 451 kg and 205 hp; 8:22.7

Please explain, as concisely as you can, how GP cars at the Nurburgring went quicker as power levels dropped to less than half what they had once been. If you can point out any deterioration, improvements or resurfacing of the course, that will be a bonus.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Power-to-weight ratio has an affect.

Better tyres, more understanding of grip, setup and other things like rear engines, general technological advances and efficiencies (such as slipstreamed, lower drag bodies. Lower centre of gravity, stronger parts etc. It's quite easy to explain as 28 years is quite a long time in the motorsport industry, with lots of time for innovation.

 

[Ryk]

Fuel? The Engines really improved but I can see a few teams may try some exotic rocketfuel rather than Avgas or pump petroleum

 

[Liquid]

Considering that the Nürburgring had multiple changes in elevation and numerous technical sections I'd say that, quite simply, it's the weight and better handling of the later cars which gave them an advantage over the earlier cars.

It's surely harder for a Mercedes-Benz or Alfa Romeo to lug and swing its weight around the track than it is for a Cooper or Lotus to dance through the corners?

 

[Dotini]

Fuel? The Engines really improved but I can see a few teams may try some exotic rocketfuel rather than Avgas or pump petroleum

From the thirties through the early fifties, most of the cars were supercharged, even double-supercharged. The fuel they used was a toxic, variable mixture of methanol, benzine, toluene, castor oil, water and sometimes nitromethane. The F1 rules were changed for 1958 to eliminate such exotic fuels and specify Avgas, or high octane racing gasoline. The power went down a bit at that point.

 

[Ryk]

45% benzene, 25% methyl alcohol, 23% aviation fuel, 3% acetone and 2% nitrobenzene, 2% Unknown (Not Tar!)
Mercedes Benz recipe for motion lotion

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/evolution/1950s.html

 

[Dotini]

Power-to-weight ratio has an affect.

I will suggest that the 750 kg cars of the mid-thirties, including the rear-engine Auto Union, had the best power-to-weight ratio until sometime in the seventies.

But these ultra powerful cars through to the '51 Alfetta could not get all their mighty power to the ground within spinning one or more rear tires - even in top gear. So power-to-weight ratio is limited, at the beginning, by wheelspin and the inability of the driver to mash the throttle coming off the corners..

So we must look to see what developed (no particular order) to control wheelspin:
1) Larger, principally wider tires. But not till the late sixties.
2) Softer compound tires with more grip. Not much is documented in the available history of the racing tire. The consensus seems to be the tires were pretty hard at least through the early sixties.
3) Independent rear suspension of correct geometry. Colin Chapman wrote this chapter of the book.
4) Limited slip differentials. This technology developed gradually, and I need to know more about its history. ZF and a few others figure here?
5) Stiffer frames and softer springs, allowing better control of tires over bumps. Also stiffer, lighter wheels.
6) Developments in shock absorbers that kept tires in better contact with the road.
7) Smoother road surfaces and better curbs. Gradually the Nurburgring was repaired and resurfaced, but details are unknown.
8) Downforce aerodynamics - but not till the late sixties. The cars of the thirties were pretty streamlined, and with fenders could go 270mph on the autobahn, and near as fast at Avus.

This is just a partial list concerning wheelspin.

Better tyres, more understanding of grip, setup and other things like rear engines, general technological advances and efficiencies (such as slipstreamed, lower drag bodies. Lower centre of gravity, stronger parts etc. It's quite easy to explain as 28 years is quite a long time in the motorsport industry, with lots of time for innovation.

 

[Liquid]

Open question:

Who has led the Formula One driver's championship the most without ever winning it?

Whichever criteria; most number of days or most number of races. You'd obviously have to look at drivers who won an opening race but didn't win the title. David Coulthard could be an answer here.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Open question:

Who has led the Formula One driver's championship the most without ever winning it?

Whichever criteria; most number of days or most number of races. You'd obviously have to look at drivers who won an opening race but didn't win the title. David Coulthard could be an answer here.

Could go way back to Stirling Moss or someone of that era? Obviously you'd have to be counting percentage-of-available-races rather than sum total of races in lead of WDC.

 

[Liquid]

Could go way back to Stirling Moss or someone of that era? Obviously you'd have to be counting percentage-of-available-races rather than sum total of races in lead of WDC.

Whichever criteria. It would be quite interesting to compare and contrast different methods of calculation.

Edit: Carlos Reutemann could also be in with a shout.

 

[Pupik]

Edit: Carlos Reutemann could also be in with a shout.

It has to be Reutemann, from a share of the championship lead after the 2nd championship race of the season (Brazil) until the end of the 14th/15th race (Las Vegas): March 29th to October 17th, thus lead the world championship for six months (12-13 races, depending on how you look at it). You can also include the single race between the 1977 Brazilian GP and South African GP in which he'd led the circus.

Although Moss won more races in the 1958 campaign, Hawthorn held on to it with reliability and scoring consistency; Stirling Moss only led the championship for three races in total.

Maybe I have selective memory, but I think the only time Coulthard led the championship was right after the 1997 Australian GP (shared the lead after the second race, then Jacques Villeneuve ran away with it).

 

[Jimlaad43]

http://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/gp/championnat.aspx
Reutemann has led the championship for 13 GPs, Moss 8, Regazzoni 7, McLaren Alboreto and Webber 6

 

[TenEightyOne]

I guess we need to figure if those are consecutive or not... my inkling is that Moss still wins the percentage on that basis

 

[Pezzarinho17]

Wrong thread ignore.

 

[Ryk]

Famous Five
Three new things and two older things in this race day photograph...

 

[Jimlaad43]

Forza Horizon 3
I'm A Celebrity Get me Out of Here!
Max Verstappen

The Red Sea
Halleys Comet

 

[Ryk]

Nope
First sighting of a Brabham BT49
New to F1 Ricardo Zunino who was from Argentina - and finished in seventh place in his first race (Just like Carlos Reutemann's debut - also in a Brabham Ford...)
And a nice new Cosworth DFV engine in the back of the Brabham
after the Alfa Romeo powered BT48 had won the previous (Non championship) event at Imola

Two old things?
Second time F1 had raced in Montreal on the Isle de Notre Dame
And most trivial bit ... Isn't that Niki Lauda's Helmet and Race Overalls

but you were close

 

[Roo]

During a Petit Le Mans, who drove almost a whole green-flag lap whilst drunk?

 

[TenEightyOne]

During a Petit Le Mans, who drove almost a whole green-flag lap whilst drunk?

No idea... but I know Hamilton (a different one) was DSQed from Le Mans in the 50s and went to a bar to drown his sorrows. When they were thoroughly drowned he was reinstated and drove the race. He hit a bird at 130mph and broke his nose, which seemingly had little effect.

 

[-Fred-]

During a Petit Le Mans, who drove almost a whole green-flag lap whilst drunk?

Sounds like something Tommy Kendall would do.