Motorsports Trivia Thread!
- Thread starter Cap'n Jack
- 7,183 comments
- 334,639 views
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
This is the 1st installment of a promise I made to document the history of four wheel drive racers which qualified and raced at the Indy 500.
1932 Miller Four Wheel Drive - the first 4WD Indy car
Two of these cars competed in in 1932. One car competed from '33 through '37. Best finish 3rd by Ted Horn in '37.
The other car went to Europe, to the 1934 Tripoli Grand Prix where it was driven by Peter De Paolo. The car finished in 7th position. This race marked the first time a 4WD was used in Grand Prix competition. It also raced in the Avus GP at Berlin. Both were non-championship GPs.
Above, running gear the same as Indy car, frame is for road going version. Note DeDion front axle. Engine is 308 cid DOHC V-8. For 1934 and beyond, the V-8 engine was replaced by a Miller-designed '255' 4-cylinder unit. Take another look at the frame. Deep box section everywhere, and fabricated from relatively thin-gauge sheet stock. The outer skin serves as bodywork. Is this is an early step toward monocoque?
^Edited
The front wheel drive system was revolutionary. The cars built by Harry Miller were often works of genius. Cars built by Miller won the Indy 500 nine times (plus three additional victories with his engines in other chassis). They accounted for 83 percent of the Brickyard's fields between 1923 and 1928.
4WD and front drive were desirable at Indy due to oil spilled on the track routinely from engine crankcase breathers, causing poor handling on the slippery brick track. Front drive cars scored numerous victories, but that's another story.
1932 Miller Four Wheel Drive - the first 4WD Indy car
Two of these cars competed in in 1932. One car competed from '33 through '37. Best finish 3rd by Ted Horn in '37.
The other car went to Europe, to the 1934 Tripoli Grand Prix where it was driven by Peter De Paolo. The car finished in 7th position. This race marked the first time a 4WD was used in Grand Prix competition. It also raced in the Avus GP at Berlin. Both were non-championship GPs.
Above, running gear the same as Indy car, frame is for road going version. Note DeDion front axle. Engine is 308 cid DOHC V-8. For 1934 and beyond, the V-8 engine was replaced by a Miller-designed '255' 4-cylinder unit. Take another look at the frame. Deep box section everywhere, and fabricated from relatively thin-gauge sheet stock. The outer skin serves as bodywork. Is this is an early step toward monocoque?
^Edited
The front wheel drive system was revolutionary. The cars built by Harry Miller were often works of genius. Cars built by Miller won the Indy 500 nine times (plus three additional victories with his engines in other chassis). They accounted for 83 percent of the Brickyard's fields between 1923 and 1928.
4WD and front drive were desirable at Indy due to oil spilled on the track routinely from engine crankcase breathers, causing poor handling on the slippery brick track. Front drive cars scored numerous victories, but that's another story.
Last edited:
Pete05
Premium
- 7,082
- Melbourne, Australia
I was watching a clip on YouTube over the weekend about the Pre-War Bugattis - more or less about the lead up to the dominant Type 35 & the development up to the Type 51.This is the 1st installment of a promise I made to document the history of four wheel drive racers which qualified and raced at the Indy 500.
1932 Miller Four Wheel Drive - the first 4WD Indy car
Two of these cars competed in in 1932. One car competed from '33 through '37. Best finish 3rd by Ted Horn in '37.
The other car went to Europe, to the 1934 Tripoli Grand Prix where it was driven by Peter De Paolo. The car finished in 7th position. This race marked the first time a 4WD was used in Grand Prix competition. It also raced in the Avus GP at Berlin. Both were non-championship GPs.
Running gear the same as Indy car, frame is for road going version. Note DeDion front axle. Engine is 308 cid DOHC V-8. For 1934 and beyond, the V-8 engine was replaced by a Miller-designed '255' 4-cylinder unit.
The front wheel drive system was revolutionary. The cars built by Harry Miller were often works of genius. Cars built by Miller won the Indy 500 nine times (plus three additional victories with his engines in other chassis). They accounted for 83 percent of the Brickyard's fields between 1923 and 1928.
4WD and front drive were desirable at Indy due to oil spilled on the track routinely from engine crankcase breathers, causing poor handling on the slippery brick track. Front drive cars scored numerous victories, but that's another story.
They explained how Ettore Bugatti acquired a Miller 91, stripped the thing bare & essentially built a copy of the Miller engine to stay competitive against increasing competition from Alfa Romeo.
Fascinating & proves what a genius ahead of his time Miller was.
- 13,145
- Seattle-ish
Leon Duray purchased two Miller 91s (91 cubic inches or 1500cc) and brought them to Europe where they set new 5 and 10 mile world records at Montlhery in 1928. Ettore Bugatti was so impressed with the cars that he traded Duray three (some sources say two) Bugatti sports cars and some cash for the American racers. The design of their overhead cams would soon find their way into his own Type 51.
I know that one of the Bugattis was a Type 35. Another was a 1928 Type 38 as a bare chassis. It was completed in the US with a lovely roadster body by Murphy. It's the only Bugatti with an American coachbuilt body. It's currently owned by Jay Leno.
I know that one of the Bugattis was a Type 35. Another was a 1928 Type 38 as a bare chassis. It was completed in the US with a lovely roadster body by Murphy. It's the only Bugatti with an American coachbuilt body. It's currently owned by Jay Leno.
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
Legendary jewel-like Miller 91 engine. Barrel crankcase machined from billet. One piece crankshaft machined from billet. All spur gears. Supercharged from beginning of design. Intercoolers. Weight was 292-330 lbs complete with all accessories, depending on specification.
By 1928, Miller 91 engines very reliably produced 230 hp @ 8,000rpm, bullet-proof for 500 merciless miles of racing at Indy, plus the rest of the season. 154 hp/liter.
As tuned by Frank Lockhart for shorter runs, 285 hp @ 8100rpm was achieved. Volumetric efficiency was 190 hp/liter.
By comparison, Mercedes-Benz by 1939 had achieved (with the W154 3 liter V-12) some 480 hp @ 7500rpm with two stage supercharging, 160 hp/liter.
In the 1920's, $5000 would buy you one of these engines, $10,000 a complete Miller 91 rear drive Indy car, and $15,000 for the elite front drive Miller 91 Indy car. Everybody at Indy wanted them, and the country was rich in the roaring 20's. These expensive exotics vanished as the Great Depression set in. The 30's was known as the "Junk Formula" era.
Last edited:
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
Here, as previously identified by @Liquid, is another 4WD Indy car, a brilliant innovation of Harry Miller and his "cars from Mars".
This mechanical wonder was out of its time, with semi-monocoque chassis, four wheel independent suspension, rear engine, and disc brakes.
Hampered severely by finances, World War II, and terrible luck (garage fire destroyed one car early on) and lack of development, it made appearances in '39, '41, '46 and '47. Best start was 6th, best finish 24th. Only two were ever built.
Gulf-Miller Indy car
This mechanical wonder was out of its time, with semi-monocoque chassis, four wheel independent suspension, rear engine, and disc brakes.
Hampered severely by finances, World War II, and terrible luck (garage fire destroyed one car early on) and lack of development, it made appearances in '39, '41, '46 and '47. Best start was 6th, best finish 24th. Only two were ever built.
Gulf-Miller Indy car
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
Actually, you were right about that too.
Here is the Indy car with two engines that qualified and raced, the Fageol Twin Coach Special. It appeared in 1946, starting on the middle of the front row. It wrecked on lap 16, and its like was never seen again.
The heat in the cockpit must have been hellish.
The Fageol "Twin Coach" two 90.88 c.i. Offys.
Enlarge
Last edited:
- 694
- Australia
Not a bad question
1. Marquez > Lorenzo (2019)
2. Lorenzo > Rossi (2008-10, 2013-16)
3. Rossi > H. Solberg (2008 Wales Rally GB)
4. H. Solberg > Tanak (2011 Wales Rally GB)
5. Tanak > Sordo (2020)
6. Sordo > Raikkonen (2010)
7. Raikkonen > Alonso (2014)
8. Alonso > Hamilton (2007)
Had to check the WRC links, the crossover points between disciplines were fairly obvious though.
Someone else can take my spot.
- 12,960
- United Kingdom
I managed to get from Tanak to Hamilton in one less driver
Marc Marquez >(2016 replacement rider)> Nicky Hayden >(Team mates in 2011 at least)> Valentino Rossi >(2008 Rally GB)> Henning Solberg >(2011 Rally GB)> Ott Tänak >(2017 WRC)> Sebastien Ogier >(2018 Spielberg DTM)> Paul Di Resta >(2004 Bahrain Superprix)> Lewis Hamilton
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
Next on our list of 4WD Indy cars is the English built P104 Ferguson-Novi, entered as the Studebaker STP in the 1964 500, driven by Bobby Unser. In 1965 it was entered as the STP Gas Treatment Special, qualifying 8th and classified 19th, not completing the distance. The fabled Novi engine, 2.75 liters and centrifugally supercharged, developed as much as 837hp compared to the standard Offy 420hp, but was heavy, thirsty, unreliable and hard to drive.
STP Novi Indycar
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
The STP Paxton Turbine and Lotus 56 come next. The Lola come a little later.
The 1968 evolution of the STP-Paxton Turbocar, entrant Andy Granatelli and driver Joe Leonard, side by side with the Lotus 56, Colin Chapman and Jimmy Clark. The last “Think Turbine” effort at the brickyard.
These turbine cars were very fast, often leading, but never did win, soon legislated out of existence. They were hated by the other drivers.
The 1968 evolution of the STP-Paxton Turbocar, entrant Andy Granatelli and driver Joe Leonard, side by side with the Lotus 56, Colin Chapman and Jimmy Clark. The last “Think Turbine” effort at the brickyard.
These turbine cars were very fast, often leading, but never did win, soon legislated out of existence. They were hated by the other drivers.
Pete05
Premium
- 7,082
- Melbourne, Australia
@Liquid
Next on our list of 4WD Indy cars is the English built P104 Ferguson-Novi, entered as the Studebaker STP in the 1964 500, driven by Bobby Unser. In 1965 it was entered as the STP Gas Treatment Special, qualifying 8th and classified 19th, not completing the distance. The fabled Novi engine, 2.75 liters and centrifugally supercharged, developed as much as 837hp compared to the standard Offy 420hp, but was heavy, thirsty, unreliable and hard to drive.
STP Novi Indycar
This is the evolution of the only 4wd car to win a Formula 1 Grand Prix, the Ferguson-Climax P99.
Stirling Moss drive that car to victory at Oulton Park in a non-championship race in 1961.
The P104 was commissioned for the Brickyard as @Dotini posted. Unfortunately, Mr Ferguson (Harry?) didn’t get to see it race, passing away only months before the big race.
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
The story goes that Stirling Moss was invited (by Dan Gurney?) to Indy to demonstrate the Ferguson P99 to Mr. Granatelli. It's speed and easy handling through the corners convinced the STP man to go ahead with the P104 project. Moss has been quoted as saying P99 was the best handling GP he ever drove, and his favorite.
Note: The P99 was the last front engine car to win a GP, albeit non-championship.
Pete05
Premium
- 7,082
- Melbourne, Australia
Despite the non-championship win & the wrap from one S.Moss, it was about 7 or 8 years before the idea of 4wd came back to F1.
Lotus, McLaren, Matra & Cosworth tried the idea before concluding there was no real benefit in a F1-type car.
In any case the FIA banned it anyway.
Off the top of my head I can’t recall the best results for a 4wd in F1. @Dotini ?
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
Well, John Miles scored 10th in the '69 British GP with a Lotus 63.
EDIT: Johnny Servoz-Gavin finished sixth in his Matra MS84 at the Canadian GP, 1969.
Matra MS84 cutaway drawing showing the 4WD cars essential elements; beautifully made heavily triangulated and braced spaceframe chassis, Ford Cosworth 3 litre DFV mounted ‘arse about’, Ferguson transmission, inboard brakes front and rear
In 1936 and 1937, Auto Union sometimes raced with 4 driven tires. However, this may have been only in hillclimbs.
Ferrari 312T6, not raced.
Last edited:
- 29,683
- Bratvegas
- GTP_Liquid
Teammate Tracer:
Graham Hill and Damon Hill
Gilles Villeneuve and Jacques Villeneuve
Keke Rosberg and Nico Rosberg
Jos Verstappen and Max Verstappen
I haven't done these so I'd like to see how few it takes. Rosberg and Verstappen I don't imagine to be massively difficult.
Graham Hill and Damon Hill
Gilles Villeneuve and Jacques Villeneuve
Keke Rosberg and Nico Rosberg
Jos Verstappen and Max Verstappen
I haven't done these so I'd like to see how few it takes. Rosberg and Verstappen I don't imagine to be massively difficult.
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
F5000 was an open wheel formula run from 1968 to 1982. Series were run on 4 continents, and cars were manufactured in England, Ireland, US, and Australia. Speeds were very high - almost at the F1 level - and costs relatively low. They are currently becoming quite popular in historic events, and a new series is getting underway in the antipodes.
Guessable Trivia Question: In terms of manufacturing and sales in any one year, what was the most successful F5000 car of all? Guess the year, make, and number manufactured and sold.
Guessable Trivia Question: In terms of manufacturing and sales in any one year, what was the most successful F5000 car of all? Guess the year, make, and number manufactured and sold.
Last edited:
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
The Chevron B24 driven by Peter Gethin to a famous victory over a whole fleet of F1 cars in the Race of Champions of 1973 certainly represents a high water mark of success for the formula. However, the 1973 Chevron was not the most commercially successful F5000 of all time.
Gethin hoses down Lauda, Hunt, Fittipaldi, Scheckter, Peterson, Hulme, Watson, etc., with a stock block engine dating to 1954.
Gethin hoses down Lauda, Hunt, Fittipaldi, Scheckter, Peterson, Hulme, Watson, etc., with a stock block engine dating to 1954.
Last edited:
