SuperCobraJet
(Banned)
- 2,472
- Virginia USA
- SuperCobraJet1
My NOS dilemma...
- Thread starter Smallhorses
- 85 comments
- 7,411 views
- 5,398
- Buenos Aires
I just thought about this, Smallhorses...
You say you don't want to use N2O, as it gives you an unfair advantage over the AI, like Parnelli pointed out, in straights. But isn't a customized suspension, customized drivetrain, and customized brakes the same thing, just for corners? I mean, you use the phrase "less HP, more fun". But in this challenge, from my point of view, you are just getting an unfair advantage over the AI in corners instead of straights with tuning! You are making something unfair anyways, believe it or not. So just use N2O, because if you are saying that it is a cheap way to win, so does tuning the car for corners, hence making you a hypocrite.
You say you don't want to use N2O, as it gives you an unfair advantage over the AI, like Parnelli pointed out, in straights. But isn't a customized suspension, customized drivetrain, and customized brakes the same thing, just for corners? I mean, you use the phrase "less HP, more fun". But in this challenge, from my point of view, you are just getting an unfair advantage over the AI in corners instead of straights with tuning! You are making something unfair anyways, believe it or not. So just use N2O, because if you are saying that it is a cheap way to win, so does tuning the car for corners, hence making you a hypocrite.
- 2,063
Just to reiterate, it is entirely possible to get 100,000 A-Spec just by dint of driving and tuning skill, avoiding the use of the Dodge RAM or NOS.
As noted above, it is not possible to 200 A-Spec some races without the use of NOS or using the RAM.
Arguments that using NOS is no less virtuous than tuning a custom suspension are flawed in my view, solely because it takes a lot of time and effort to be able to effectively dial-in a suspension whereas with NOS, whilst not exactly being an "I Win!" button there's not a huge amount of talent required.
Do I feel that I achieved my 100,000 A-Spec by a 'purer' road than most, yes I do. Do NOS users have the right to disdain my feelings on this? Of course they do ... and n'ere the twain shall meet.
Is hitting that target without NOS or the RAM a harder task? It most certainly is, particularly if, like me, you also decide not to use Japanese cars except where they are mandatory.
As noted above, it is not possible to 200 A-Spec some races without the use of NOS or using the RAM.
Arguments that using NOS is no less virtuous than tuning a custom suspension are flawed in my view, solely because it takes a lot of time and effort to be able to effectively dial-in a suspension whereas with NOS, whilst not exactly being an "I Win!" button there's not a huge amount of talent required.
Do I feel that I achieved my 100,000 A-Spec by a 'purer' road than most, yes I do. Do NOS users have the right to disdain my feelings on this? Of course they do ... and n'ere the twain shall meet.
Is hitting that target without NOS or the RAM a harder task? It most certainly is, particularly if, like me, you also decide not to use Japanese cars except where they are mandatory.
- 5,398
- Buenos Aires
But N2O runs out, eventually. While the drivetrain, brakes and suspension upgrades last forever. And what does it matter if the N2O does not require to be tuned in any way? Applying weight reductions is considered as tuning in the tuning garages, when all that you have to do is just buy the bloody parts. No parts adjustment involved whatsoever. It doesn't matter in this case, but it is the same deal. The "cornering upgrades" are an advantage over the AI anyways. After all, I didn't knew it was necessary requirement to become a tuning expert in order to get 100.000 A-Spec points.
EDIT: About the flawed part. Yes, every time you make an adjustment for the better you are getting an even more unfair advantage.
EDIT: About the flawed part. Yes, every time you make an adjustment for the better you are getting an even more unfair advantage.
- 2,063
Weight Reductions? Not a common thing to choose to do when gunning for 200 A-Spec races but it is an example of another no-tuning-required option.
As I hope I said clearly enough, if people are proud of hitting 100,000 A-Spec using NOS then I'm not going to take that away from them. Just as they cannot take away from me a sense of greater pride of having done it by the more difficult path.
As I hope I said clearly enough, if people are proud of hitting 100,000 A-Spec using NOS then I'm not going to take that away from them. Just as they cannot take away from me a sense of greater pride of having done it by the more difficult path.
- 10,553
- Columbia, MD.
- Parnelli_Bones
No, the Ai doesn't use N tires, however, if we do, that's not cheating...that's actually a disadvantage...a way of keeping us from dominating easy races.
Ballast weight? No, the Ai probably doesn't (but who really knows?). However, ballast can be used so that you're not cheating. Try entering a front-drive car in an off-road race. Even if you switch some ballast (necessary for traction) you're still at a huge disadvantage. Go ahead. Try it at Swiss Alps Normal, or Citta d'Aria. Drive an Integra or a Focus or a Taurus (that's what I've used so far). With ballast. Against an AWD car. Tell me if you feel it's cheating...
👍
It is cheating if you're using such parts in races for which the Ai definitely hasn't got them. But I see no harm in equipping a sport suspension, racing brake kit (with no controller), or some other basic parts in an easier race, so long as power is kept reigned back.
Again, I feel that if the Ai has the right to BASH AND PUNT ME to oblivion in corners, don't I get to use some parts to help me expand my driving/cornering lines so that I can avoid them? Makes sense to me.
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kekke2000
Premium
- 1,936
- Sweden
- kekke2000
If you feel that the game is starting to wear thin you need change. Get dirty! They're just stupid AI anyway and you play by the rules. Forget OLR Rules and clean racing. Go hollywood style and smash on! Then you can put all this behind you and leave it there.
- 10,553
- Columbia, MD.
- Parnelli_Bones
There are several problems with this.
1). It gets boring being #1 all the time.
2). Such behavior might be acceptable at IGN or Playstation.com, but if you're trying to go for online cred & respect here at GTP, forget bragging about your exploits here. 👎
3). What's better? A replay in which you're showing off your skills (and handing the Ai their asses one at a time)? Or a replay in which you basically look like a total @$$?
...your answer will probably be #2, of course. Personally, I want all my replays to look like I'm leading an actual SCCA, FIA/GT2, DTM, etc. race. Clean driving, well-timed passes, total respect.
4). I just watched portions of the Sebring 12 hours the other day. Funny thing is, not once did I see anybody punt anybody else off-course.
Gran Turismo can be played like a game of bumper-cars, I realize, which is a huge flaw, it's up to you to try and make it real. Damage damage damage...please in GT5!!!
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Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
In real life nitrous oxide is a method of delivering oxygenated fuel to an engine for more power. There's more to it than merely strapping on a bottle and pushing a button. More fuel must also be delivered to the engine to avoid detonation due to lean-out of the fuel/air ratio.
In the desperate days of the Battle of Britain (WWII), brave and worried men injected alcohol (also an oxygenated fuel) and water into the engines of their obsolete Hurricanes and Spitfires to fly faster and climb higher. To them, it was a matter of life and death. They had to win.
Similarly, we may take it that in the fiercely beating heart of every would-be racing driver there is the pride of a lion, a powerful will and a strong, unquenchable need to win. GT4 has provided us with a marvelous way of simulating racing, and the opportunity to pull on the gloves of racing driver.
And it has also, mercifully I think, allowed the less skilled to taste the ultimate victory by providing little advantages hidden away in the game here and there. Some are obvious, like nitrous.
In real life driving, not everybody has the consummate skill of Juan Manuel Fangio, or more recently, Michael Schumacher. In GT4, not everybody has the skill of SuperCobraJet or sukerkin. We can all concede these things.
But I think we can also concede the great, lesser herd of us the opportunity to taste victory using the tools and rules the game has provided, and do it without opprobrium, the taint of disgrace, or any loss of self-respect. This provides all of us common ground and common experiences, and also a bit of a "pecking order", and then all of this becomes a good thing, a "great game".
Now all it requires is honesty. Racing is a great teacher of self-honesty, an ultimate test of how well one matches up with the real world under difficult circumstances. Finally, I must say how impressed I am with the thoughtfulness and quality of this particular thread. Smallhorses will be getting his money's worth!
With respect and admiration for all,
In the desperate days of the Battle of Britain (WWII), brave and worried men injected alcohol (also an oxygenated fuel) and water into the engines of their obsolete Hurricanes and Spitfires to fly faster and climb higher. To them, it was a matter of life and death. They had to win.
Similarly, we may take it that in the fiercely beating heart of every would-be racing driver there is the pride of a lion, a powerful will and a strong, unquenchable need to win. GT4 has provided us with a marvelous way of simulating racing, and the opportunity to pull on the gloves of racing driver.
And it has also, mercifully I think, allowed the less skilled to taste the ultimate victory by providing little advantages hidden away in the game here and there. Some are obvious, like nitrous.
In real life driving, not everybody has the consummate skill of Juan Manuel Fangio, or more recently, Michael Schumacher. In GT4, not everybody has the skill of SuperCobraJet or sukerkin. We can all concede these things.
But I think we can also concede the great, lesser herd of us the opportunity to taste victory using the tools and rules the game has provided, and do it without opprobrium, the taint of disgrace, or any loss of self-respect. This provides all of us common ground and common experiences, and also a bit of a "pecking order", and then all of this becomes a good thing, a "great game".
Now all it requires is honesty. Racing is a great teacher of self-honesty, an ultimate test of how well one matches up with the real world under difficult circumstances. Finally, I must say how impressed I am with the thoughtfulness and quality of this particular thread. Smallhorses will be getting his money's worth!
With respect and admiration for all,
SuperCobraJet
(Banned)
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- SuperCobraJet1
- 1,915
Remember SH, getting 100K A-spec is getting 100K A-spec, no matter what you do.
kekke2000
Premium
- 1,936
- Sweden
- kekke2000
There are several problems with this.
1). It gets boring being #1 all the time.
2). Such behavior might be acceptable at IGN or Playstation.com, but if you're trying to go for online cred & respect here at GTP, forget bragging about your exploits here. 👎
3). What's better? A replay in which you're showing off your skills (and handling the Ai their asses one at a time)? Or a replay in which you basically look like a total @$$?
...your answer will probably be #2, of course. Personally, i want all my replays to look like i'm leading an actual SCCA, FIA/GT2, DTM, etc. race. Clean driving, well-timed passes, total respect.
4). I just watched portions of the Sebring 12 hours the other day. Funny thing is, not once did i see anybody punt anybody else off-course.
Gran Turismo can be played like a game of bumper-cars, i realize, which is a huge flaw, it's up to you to try and make it real. Damage damage damage...please in GT5!!!
I think you get me a bit wrong. I race clean when i'm online and most other races too. When I watch my replays I don't want a single bump into anything. But this is another situation. This is going a bit over the line to get the final points to close the chapter. At least that's how I see it.
SuperCobraJet
(Banned)
- 2,472
- Virginia USA
- SuperCobraJet1
One thing it should be interested to know is if PD has any idea we are trying to get maximum A-Spec points when the game obviously wasn't designed for that
I don't believe that for a second.
The way KY has overseen the making of each game in this series. I believe he not only knows about it, but PD knows every lineup and detail of it. This guy doesn't do things that way.
He may not have had time to perfect it like he wanted, due to time limitations. Just like right now we are waiting on GT5. At some point the game has to be released. You can't work on it forever. Although that seems to be more of a possibility prior to a GT release.
It sure has been for me in GT4. There isn't a game I have ever played that comes close to the playtime I have in GT4.
Sometimes I think he should be appointed Game Czar over all game development .
It may take a while to get a game but when you do you will get your money's worth.
- 2,063
First, huge kudos to Dotini's superlative post above. As ever, good sir, very well spoken.
Second, I just want to throw my hat in the ring with SuperCobraJet and say that it was the charge to 100,00 A-Spec the 'hard way' that re-ignited the game for me.
I've never been one for going in over-gunned for a GT race, ever since GT1; but in GT4 I had an intrinsically 'unfair' and unbalanced ratings system to go up against too. It was a great challenge to impose additional restrictions and try my very best to squeeze each point I could out of the car I chose.
Admittedly it drove me to rage on more than one occasion - don't punch your G25 wheels, fellow drivers, it really hurts - but it's kept me coming back for more week on week for years now. A down side is that if I'm in a race that earns me less than 120 A-Spec I do find it hard to take any enjoyment out of it; even if it is the just the PD effect making the points low it still feels like shooting fish in a barrel 
.
Second, I just want to throw my hat in the ring with SuperCobraJet and say that it was the charge to 100,00 A-Spec the 'hard way' that re-ignited the game for me.
I've never been one for going in over-gunned for a GT race, ever since GT1; but in GT4 I had an intrinsically 'unfair' and unbalanced ratings system to go up against too. It was a great challenge to impose additional restrictions and try my very best to squeeze each point I could out of the car I chose.
Admittedly it drove me to rage on more than one occasion - don't punch your G25 wheels, fellow drivers, it really hurts
- but it's kept me coming back for more week on week for years now. A down side is that if I'm in a race that earns me less than 120 A-Spec I do find it hard to take any enjoyment out of it; even if it is the just the PD effect making the points low it still feels like shooting fish in a barrel .
SuperCobraJet
(Banned)
- 2,472
- Virginia USA
- SuperCobraJet1
First, huge kudos to Dotini's superlative post above. As ever, good sir, very well spoken.
Second, I just want to throw my hat in the ring with SuperCobraJet and say that it was the charge to 100,00 A-Spec the 'hard way' that re-ignited the game for me.
I've never been one for going in over-gunned for a GT race, ever since GT1; but in GT4 I had an intrinsically 'unfair' and unbalanced ratings system to go up against too. It was a great challenge to impose additional restrictions and try my very best to squeeze each point I could out of the car I chose.
Admittedly it drove me to rage on more than one occasion - don't punch your G25 wheels, fellow drivers, it really hurts
For this very reason, I happened to be cruising the 200pt forum and saw Smallhorses info about this thread.
I had not played GT4 for months.
Then recently I wondered if you could start a new game with just the 10,000 credits (no transfer of money or trade any cars) and;
Complete each race just once for max Aspec points to maintain a 100% win ratio (no reruns to make extra credits) and;
Not sell any cars to make any extra credits and;
100% complete the game.
At a little over 25% complete and 750,000 credits it appears to be doable. I don't know if I will ever play it out to completion or checkmate, that would halt continuing, but it has been interesting thus far.
Ah, it is this combo of challenging possibilities that always seems to draw one back.
I think this rage you speak of had something to do with the premature failure of two of my DS2 controllers.
Oh well.
- 985
The biggest message I see out of all the exceptional posts above, is that it is YOUR game and only YOU can choose what to do.
For some to say that NOS is Cheating, then it's up to them never to use it.
If using NOS is not cheating, but using the tools that the game has provided for you to succeed in your challenge. Then go ahead and use I say.
Who is some-one to citisize YOU, for how you play YOUR game, that YOU paid for. Use it if you want and blah to any one who has a problem with how you play YOUR game.
Edit: Just saw SCJ's post above. I think it is possible to do what you are trying. I myself in my game got to (i think 70%) with only buying the Miata and Dodge (however i was not tracking A-Spec points for this.) But I think it could be accomplished.
For some to say that NOS is Cheating, then it's up to them never to use it.
If using NOS is not cheating, but using the tools that the game has provided for you to succeed in your challenge. Then go ahead and use I say.
Who is some-one to citisize YOU, for how you play YOUR game, that YOU paid for. Use it if you want and blah to any one who has a problem with how you play YOUR game.
Edit: Just saw SCJ's post above. I think it is possible to do what you are trying. I myself in my game got to (i think 70%) with only buying the Miata and Dodge (however i was not tracking A-Spec points for this.) But I think it could be accomplished.
SuperCobraJet
(Banned)
- 2,472
- Virginia USA
- SuperCobraJet1
A big HERE HERE! to that.
After rereading through this thread, I'm beginning to wonder, if there should be a seperate designation in the 100,000 Aspec pt. club for a "NO NOS 100,000".
I'm sure I'm not alone in considering it a noteworthy achievement.
Verification may be a problem, since a screenshot cannot distinguish this. Maybe AMG could look into it and see if there is a possibility it could be established.
Anyway, just speculating out loud.
EDIT:One more thing I would like to point out in all of this just for the sake of reputation.
There appears to be no difference in some players outlook at max. point racing, and other racing.
In a sanctioned or comparable online event, all the competitors have the benefit of "equal application" under the rules, (At least that is the "intent" anyway) regaurding power, wieght, tires, etc. so no one will have an unfair advantage. Certainly in this example, one's driving should be "clean" which IMO is also, whether written or not, part of the rules.
In max point racing you do not have this benefit. You are always at an "unfair disadvantage". Often quite considerable, as has already been pointed out.
While it may be admirable and engaging to undertake the challenge without NOS or rough driving, it will not always suffice, as has also already been pointed out.
Therefore, as noted, my approach to the two of these is entirely different.
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- 10,553
- Columbia, MD.
- Parnelli_Bones
True. It's the owner's game, and the owner can do what he/she likes. But the problem occurs when someone shows up here and starts talking about bodyslamming other cars, overkilling with too much power, etc, as tho they're some God to the world of virtual motorsports. Would you expect me to say "hey, you're a great driver! Good job, keep up the good work!" No, i'm not gonna do that. This is the same person (i would imagine) who's gonna punt me off course someday while i'm trying to do a clean GT5 race.
Anyways, sometimes i'll say nothing. More and more often, i've actually been holding my tongue on these subjects. But other times, i'll be an ass about it! Since this thread adresses many problems about cheating, i'm gonna post my opinions. Sorry if it offends anybody, but I like the fact that GTP drivers (the good ones) hold a certain standard. I like the fact that Smallhorses is torn over what is cheating and what isn't. I've asked myself (and the boards) the same questions posted in this thread, occasionally.
~peace~
GTsail
Premium
- 2,472
- Florida
- GTsail2/GTsail3
Great question Smallhorses
I would recommend that you continue to race without NOS. And see how far you get. You can always start a second game where anything goes.
I reached about 25000 A-Spec points without NOS on my first run thru of the game where I reached about 98% complete. I used HP upgrades to win and did not even think of using NOS. I then put them game away for over a year.
I have recently come back to the game with the intention of reaching 100000 A-Spec points (I just passed 80000). My skills are somewhat limited, so getting anywhere close to 100000 points without NOS or sometimes grass-cutting/wallriding would not be possible.
I think that all of us GT addicts are striving for various achievements in the game, and we would openly acknowledge feeling good about ourselves when other GT addicts acknowledge our skills. I suspect that most of the other drivers here want to stand out from the crowd in some way (for example, my conceit is that I maintain a 85% win ratio even though I race in many hard races). But of course I don't mention all the resets.
In conclusion, I say go for the max without NOS. It would be an achievement that few others could reach. I salute you.
GTsail290
I would recommend that you continue to race without NOS. And see how far you get. You can always start a second game where anything goes.
I reached about 25000 A-Spec points without NOS on my first run thru of the game where I reached about 98% complete. I used HP upgrades to win and did not even think of using NOS. I then put them game away for over a year.
I have recently come back to the game with the intention of reaching 100000 A-Spec points (I just passed 80000). My skills are somewhat limited, so getting anywhere close to 100000 points without NOS or sometimes grass-cutting/wallriding would not be possible.
I think that all of us GT addicts are striving for various achievements in the game, and we would openly acknowledge feeling good about ourselves when other GT addicts acknowledge our skills. I suspect that most of the other drivers here want to stand out from the crowd in some way (for example, my conceit is that I maintain a 85% win ratio even though I race in many hard races). But of course I don't mention all the resets.
In conclusion, I say go for the max without NOS. It would be an achievement that few others could reach. I salute you.
GTsail290
Smallhorses
Staff Emeritus
- 7,260
Thanks to everyone that has contributed here so far, and I look forward to the continuing discussion too. 
With regards to many of the comments here by seasoned A-spec veterans and many members of the 100K elite, and also with reference to some additional data I've recently become party to from various sources I'm pretty confident that I may not have to resort to NOS after all. 👍
It's going to be tough racing, and blocking may become a familiar manouever, but I'm going to go for absolutely everything I can racing as cleanly as possible (AI initiated contact notwithstanding) and just by adding chassis/drivetrain tuning, ballast & N tyres where possible. I forgot to mention that I got most of the way to where I'm at in probably ~95% stock cars, so I've only tuned about 5% of my rides as yet, and I'm by no means an expert. That's obviously going to change from here on in, and I'll be relying on the expertise and experience of folks here at
and within the tuning / settings forum and various garages for hints, tips and advice! 
Wish me luck...
With regards to many of the comments here by seasoned A-spec veterans and many members of the 100K elite, and also with reference to some additional data I've recently become party to from various sources I'm pretty confident that I may not have to resort to NOS after all. 👍
It's going to be tough racing, and blocking may become a familiar manouever, but I'm going to go for absolutely everything I can racing as cleanly as possible (AI initiated contact notwithstanding) and just by adding chassis/drivetrain tuning, ballast & N tyres where possible. I forgot to mention that I got most of the way to where I'm at in probably ~95% stock cars, so I've only tuned about 5% of my rides as yet, and I'm by no means an expert. That's obviously going to change from here on in, and I'll be relying on the expertise and experience of folks here at
and within the tuning / settings forum and various garages for hints, tips and advice! Wish me luck...
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
Good luck, Smallhorses! And congratulations on the smart choice. Now we need a new poll on how far you'll get before reconsideration of NOS and dirty tactics. I'm going to predict 101,000.
What is your verdict on the use of B-spec to drive new cars in order to get the benefit of worn oil?
What is your verdict on the use of B-spec to drive new cars in order to get the benefit of worn oil?
AMG.
Staff Emeritus
- 3,116
- NL, Leiden
- GTP_AMG
Thats not an option as the PS2 only records up to a certain amount of time. Iirc Anything over >20 avg is cut off.
I'm sure Nick wouldnt mind having no special distinction made in post #222. We have to take his word for it, (I do) that he's raced clean and without nos. All in the know will know how he achieved his results and I'm sure he'll keep us in the loop on how he fairs.
Even if full replay recordings were possible (and I sometimes wished there were), who'd volunteer to e.g. check three 24h races
.When the time comes I'll see how to best add Nick's accomplishment in post "triple two".
Till then, Nick go for it!👍
AMG.
Smallhorses
Staff Emeritus
- 7,260
I don't believe there'll be any need for anything special when I reach 100,000 as I don't believe there's anyone that's taken the time to achieve the goal in 100% OLR standard cleanliness. (i.e. without any AI contact, off-track time or barrier contact.) Unfortunately it's almost unavoidable in many cases, but there's a distinction between trying to make AI passes cleanly but having them turn in on you and actively T-boning an AI car into the sand in order to win races.
Many of my races are absolutely clean, as it's what I strive for, but there's no way on Earth that I'd've abandoned a 24hr Endurance race for being dirty if I get punted from behind by AI that's too dumb to notice I'm in front of it!
I mainly race to the rules of the stock car thread, in that I will tolerate contact or off-track moments that do not afford me an advantage, such as shortcutting or wallriding would.
Since I'm now starting to tune and replace tyres my races won't be submissible there, but it's still a great guideline to aim for.
And yes, as Rob has mentioned, my slightly out-of-date stats are in my signature, they've increased by around 200 points since I last updated them.
@ Dotini: My B-spec stats are also listed and I intend to keep them that way. Sadly it means no worn-out cars unless I'm prepared to drive them to death, so I'll not be aiming for the 111,813 maximum point level.
Many of my races are absolutely clean, as it's what I strive for, but there's no way on Earth that I'd've abandoned a 24hr Endurance race for being dirty if I get punted from behind by AI that's too dumb to notice I'm in front of it!
I mainly race to the rules of the stock car thread, in that I will tolerate contact or off-track moments that do not afford me an advantage, such as shortcutting or wallriding would.
Since I'm now starting to tune and replace tyres my races won't be submissible there, but it's still a great guideline to aim for.
And yes, as Rob has mentioned, my slightly out-of-date stats are in my signature, they've increased by around 200 points since I last updated them.
@ Dotini: My B-spec stats are also listed and I intend to keep them that way. Sadly it means no worn-out cars unless I'm prepared to drive them to death, so I'll not be aiming for the 111,813 maximum point level.
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