My NOS dilemma...

[Open Addict]

... But the problem occurs when someone shows up here and starts talking about bodyslamming other cars, overkilling with too much power, etc, as tho they're some God to the world of virtual motorsports. ...
~peace~

I totally agree with you on the point of some-one saying they are a virtual motorsports god, because they creamed the 24hr Nurb with a Toyota 88cv with a turbo 4 and killed the AI by 40 laps.
This is not in the spirit of this thread, because you would only get 1 point (if your lucky) for such an event.

However to get 111,813 (unfortunately) you do have to resort to some dirty tactics.


Congrats to SH, and I think you could make 104,000 with-out NOS. Maybe.

I did try on one card using B-spec to wear down (9,000 miles on the clock when I finished) a Citroen 2cv and then "trade" it on to my main card.
Unfortunately the miles did not go with the car. So I think I B-spec is not to be used, It would take you maybe another 3 years to wear down the cars you would need to get MAX.

 

[Car-less]

I'll stick with my view of comparing it to KERS. NOS is ok in short bursts over a long race if you balance it out with extra weight to compromise your handling.

Having seen the Australian Gran Prix, I'm not so sure that I like the idea of KERS as much as I thought I would. Not only can it be used as a "push to pass" system, but also to prevent someone passing a KERS equipt car. I still prefer it to bumper cars, but something about it just didn't sit right with me - maybe I just wanted to see Lewis suffer this season?!

Hey Car-less I just noticed you are only about 700 Aspec points shy of the max and have a 100% win ratio.

Are you still working toward the max pt. total ?

Nope. Take a closer look at my stats (click on them) and you will see that my aim was large and tidy numbers rather tham maximum, besides some of the FF manufacturers races really are beyond me. Having to lean on the right opponent in the right corner etc. just to make the race possible is just no fun.

No, the Ai doesn't use N tires, however, if we do, that's not cheating...that's actually a disadvantage...a way of keeping us from dominating easy races.

Ballast weight? No, the Ai probably doesn't (but who really knows?). However, ballast can be used so that you're not cheating.

<snip>

It is cheating if you're using such parts in races for which the Ai definately hasn't got them. But i see no harm in equipping a sport suspension, racing brake kit (with no controller), or some other basic parts in an easier race, so long as power is kept reigned back.

Your first paragraph disagrees with the bolded part. It really is a grey area, but (like yourself?) I see no problem with using the available upgrades in order to win a difficult race. Slapping nitrous on your supercharged Dodge Ram for the Sunday Cup however...

The biggest message I see out of all the exceptional posts above, is that it is YOUR game and only YOU can choose what to do.

For some to say that NOS is Cheating, then it's up to them never to use it.
If using NOS is not cheating, but using the tools that the game has provided for you to succeed in your challenge. Then go ahead and use I say.

Absolutely. There are so many ways to play this game, and who is anyone to say that getting to 50% by only drifting white Japanese cars is wrong? You choose your own challenge, and choose what tools you use to achieve it.

My overriding aim was 100K+ with 100% win ratio. Beyond that I sometimes set myself different challenges for different races. i.e.
1) FGT World Championship for maximum points using only the FGT.
2) Easy and Normal special conditions using only road (not race) cars.
3) Sarthe II and Sarthe I one after the other, and using the same car (without oil change or chassis refresh if I recall correctly). I did use nitrous here, but 2x20 seconds is nothing during 2x24 hour races.

All parts were permitted, but large turbos were rarely used (I prefer NA), only my opel speedster has an aftermarket wing, and I have never changed the wheels on any car - only tyres, but always on the stock rims.

Thanks to everyone that has contributed here so far, and I look forward to the continuing discussion too.

With regards to many of the comments here by seasoned A-spec veterans and many members of the 100K elite, and also with reference to some additional data I've recently become party to from various sources I'm pretty confident that I may not have to resort to NOS after all. 👍

<snip>

Wish me luck...

I'm sure you can do it, and will feel so much better for doing it your own way. How far past 100K you can get is another question, I found roadblocks around 107K and 110K where I had to start wearing cars down, and then ramming and looking for shortcuts, but then I had been using nitrous as necessary for a long time before then.

You'll need that Luck, and more than a bit of skill to get there without NOS/contact/Bob, but to have gotten as far as you have already, you must have plenty of that needed skill.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Your first paragraph disagrees with the bolded part. It really is a grey area, but (like yourself?) I see no problem with using the available upgrades in order to win a difficult race. Slapping nitrous on your supercharged Dodge Ram for the Sunday Cup however...

I think the bottom line is: there are things we can do to enhance our vehicles, which the Ai cannot. Depending on how you use these enhancements, it can be considered cheating or not cheating; nitrous included.

If we're severely underpowering our cars, for instance, and then using nitrous to make up for lost time down a straight, it's not truely cheating in my opinion (assuming the driver is trying as hard as he or she can in corners, and can't get an edge anywhere). But to me it seems complicated. I'd rather forget about the A-spec points at that point, and simply add more power.

Anyways, if it's being insinuated (by you or anyone else) that i'm a cheater because i use ballast, suspension parts, brake parts, drivetrain parts, etc, i can only say this: 50% of my wins are close--within a second of the 2nd place car. Another 25% are even closer than this (a half second or so). I can start posting plenty of screen shots if you like.

 

[Car-less]

Anyways, if it's being insinuated (by you or anyone else) that i'm a cheater because i use ballast, suspension parts, brake parts, drivetrain parts, etc, i can only say this: 50% of my wins are close--within a second of the 2nd place car. Another 25% are even closer than this (a half second or so). I can start posting plenty of screen shots if you like.

No, not at all. I use all the parts you do and more to win races. I have used NOS, shortcuts, wallriding and ramming in some of the trickiest races, and have been known to lap the whole field in some others. Most (but not all) of these tactics were only used to gather additional points beyond 100k, so I do not consider myself a cheat. When racing for fun (not points) I have been known to deliberately spin myself out, or drive through the pits after causing an avoidable accident.

As has been said a few times in this thread, it's your game, and nobody should criticise you for playing it your own way - or something like that. Sorry, it's almost 2:30am and I need some sleep.

 

[Open Addict]

IMO, It's only cheating, if I think i've cheated, in my game.

Example: To win the Hyundai Sports Festival for 176 x 5 (880 total) MAXIMUM points
1) You have to use a Hyundai Coupe.
2) You have to wear the car down.
3) You have to add ballast.
4) You have to use N1 tyres.
5) You have to use NOS.
6) You have to add all non-power upgradable parts you can.
7) You have to bash the AI.

Therefore if you are going for MAXIMUM points, there just is no other way to do this.

Now I play within the rules of the Stock Car Thread.
Buy a car - take it to the track.
(I will sometimes add S1 or R1 tyres if I have to or possibly Oil Change)

 

[Lucas]

There is no cheating in this game, other than bashing cars, wallriding and using shortcurts. Because the game was not designed to be played that way! Using nitrous is not a cheat. It was there for something: for slow cars to get an edge in power, or for those who choose nitrous over raw power since nitrous can be used exclusively on straights, unlike a huge V8 who basically kills you in corners.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

There is no cheating in this game, other than bashing cars, wallriding and using shortcurts. Because the game was not designed to be played that way! Using nitrous is not a cheat. It was there for something: for slow cars to get an edge in power, or for those who choose nitrous over raw power since nitrous can be used exclusively on straights, unlike a huge V8 who basically kills you in corners.

This assumes the driver is actually using nitrous the way smallhorses is thinking of doing. I think most people who play(ed) GT4 did not use nitrous in that way--in effect, it's been used as a cheat in a Need For Speed manner, so that someone can wind up far, far ahead of the 2nd place car thru as much overkill as possible.





Another thing about nitrous (so far as it being a major cheat, at least the way it is typically used) I thought of last nite.

Someone can say "Parnelli's a cheater because he uses ballast, parts, and settings that the Ai does not", and then they say "what's the difference with nitrous?" Well it seems to me there is a difference.

First of all, it hasn't been conclusively proven that the Ai definatley does not use parts other than power-ups. But it definatley doesn't use nitrous. The big problem with nitrous is that it's used in a dynamic fashion. In other words, a driver can equip nitrous, and then has the choice whether or not he wants to use it. If things are going well, the NO2 bottle goes untapped. If things aren't going well, the driver can simply give a burst of nitrous to try and make up the diffference. Nitrous is an advantage that is used during a race, to give an advantage.

Parts & settings, on the other hand, exist in a static fashion. We make our settings, we change our parts, but then that's it. You can't all-a-sudden make a quick suspension change to a car during a race in an effort for a better advantage. If our brakes are stuttering and we're losing braking power, we can't make an adjustment on-the-fly. Assuming the race isn't restarted, we're stuck with our 2nd-place win or whatever. There is no extra advantage given during a race like there is with nitrous.

 

[Lucas]

You've got a point there 👍

I'm tired of this Awesome smilies already

 

[Open Addict]

....Parts & settings, on the other hand, exist in a static fashion. We make our settings, we change our parts, but then that's it. You can't all-a-sudden make a quick suspension change to a car during a race in an effort for a better advantage. If our brakes are stuttering and we're losing braking power, we can't make an adjustment on-the-fly. Assuming the race isn't restarted, we're stuck with our 2nd-place win or whatever. There is no extra advantage given during a race like there is with nitrous.

So, can I ask a question regarding Tyres?

If you start, let's say the Nurb 4hr race with S1 tyres on, and you are offered a points total of 200 A-spec.
You run for approx 6 laps and you then pit while in last place and say 20 seconds behind. ( I know the position and time is made up).
While in the pits you change to S2 tyres. Even though you now pit every five laps, you can now catch the AI because your lap times get better by 10 seconds per lap.

Would this then also be considered cheating, because you are changing the car during the race?

Just trying to get a perspective on this while I am here.

 

[Smallhorses]

So, can I ask a question regarding Tyres?

If you start, let's say the Nurb 4hr race with S1 tyres on, and you are offered a points total of 200 A-spec.
You run for approx 6 laps and you then pit while in last place and say 20 seconds behind. ( I know the position and time is made up).
While in the pits you change to S2 tyres. Even though you now pit every five laps, you can now catch the AI because your lap times get better by 10 seconds per lap.

Would this then also be considered cheating, because you are changing the car during the race?

I'd say no from my perspective. While there's no A-spec points to be gained in real-life track racing, the competitors can, and often do, use different tyre compounds during a race, in fact it's obligatory in F1 now.
Starting on harder tyres for extra points and switching to softs exploits a loophole in the points system, however, there's so few races that're long enough to allow you the time to pit-in, switch tyres and still go on to win that it's not a "cheat" per se in my book.

I haven't ever mentioned NOS being a "cheat" within this thread myself, just an "easy option", so this really isn't about whether I consider anyone or anything a cheater. I have the utmost respect for all those of you that've broken the 100,000 barrier, and to those that have achieved maximum points as I fully understand that things such as NOS & extreme shortcutting, AI banging and wallriding are a necessary evil in reaching that goal, purely because the game has made them as such.

Anyway, I've had a new lease of life with some of the info I've collected, and have been ploughing through some series using chassis tuning, different tyres & ballast weight picking up points here and there until I came up with this milestone last night after fiddling the ballast on the Bluebird for exactly the right number to hit 92000!:

The last image shows a copy of Fizio's spreadsheet that I modified for my game, and includes an extra third column which shows the points countdown for me to hit exactly 100,000, a total that I'll be more than happy with.
There is still much low-hanging fruit in the Manufacturers Hall, and the vast majority of that leftover in the Extreme Hall is for the PD Cup which I have plans for, and the FGTWC which can be done in many different rides without NOS for 200 points per race, if I find I have to.

 

[Nicksfix]

Geeeeeeez,you are the man.
Thats worth framing .

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Big congrats Smallhorses 👍

Apparently, the 100,000 pts. is attainable within the confines of your established goal and if it is, I have no doubt you will get there.

I still believe there should be a seperate designation for this accomplishment. Even so, you and the rest of us max pt. nutters know, how truly unique an achievement it is.

The best to you on the remainder of those pts.

 

[SportWagon]

Are there any other cars besides the RAM that you would prefer to avoid?

The Peugeot 905, perhaps?

 

[Austin343]

No, the 905 is pretty useless. The closest other cars to the Ram in terms of feeling like cheating are the Suzuki GSX-R/4, Chaparral 2J, and Nissan Skyline BLRA-3 (for the classics races). Otherwise, while many cars are certainly better than others for being offered and winning A-spec points, none feel like they have a particularly pronounced advantage. Smallhorses doesn't have any qualms about using those three, though, as far as I know, now that he's done all he can in as many different cars as possible, because their base point values aren't as obviously skewed as the Ram's.

I almost forgot, congratulations, Smallhorses. I have no doubts you'll get to 100000, and to any future goals you aim for. 👍 I voted for NOS, too, to give you a necessary advantage in races that are skewed horribly against you (two-lap manufacturer races for well under 200 points come to mind).

 

[Smallhorses]

Are there any other cars besides the RAM that you would prefer to avoid?

The Peugeot 905, perhaps?

Nope, and I have, as I've said used the Ram before, however, it's been used in the 3 Sports Truck races and those races only.

Bear in mind that I've earned one of every car in the game, be it by golding licences, winning them as prize cars or buying each and every new and used car available, and I did this without using B-spec at all, or using the Capri Rally or DTM bankrolling tricks. I have as I've mentioned (perhaps not in this thread though) won a race in every single one of those cars that can be driven in a race, and as such the Peugeot 905 is one of those that won a race. I can't quite remember what though! Maybe it was one of the Real Circuit Tour races since I was running short on cash by then and the Peugeot had the important distinction, like the Mazda 787B of being 1,000,000Cr cheaper than the other Le Mans style racers.

Is there a reason for asking about the Peugeot 905 in particular?

 

[Skygrasper550]

Anyway, I've had a new lease of life with some of the info I've collected, and have been ploughing through some series using chassis tuning, different tyres & ballast weight picking up points here and there until I came up with this milestone last night after fiddling the ballast on the Bluebird for exactly the right number to hit 92000!:

!!

on-topic: I would have to go with Parnelli Bone's suggestion.., use NOS, but only if the AI does something stupid (you get what I mean )

 

[SportWagon]

As I PM'd I think Smallhorses should be able to nickel-and-dime at least a few tens of extra points from the Super Speedway Enduro using the 905. So you say you have one already? It's not a prize, though is it?

 

[Smallhorses]

Have yet to confirm where it got driven, but there's a Peugeot 905 in my garage with 21.9 miles on it, which seems around about right for a Real Circuit Tour Race.

I'm currently at 118 / 200 points for Super Speedway 150 Miles, and realistically I can see upping that to around 140 at the most without AI bashing or wallriding. However, given that it takes about an hour, it's a lot of time to invest for not much reward. Add to that my disdain for oval racing in general and it looks like it'll only get done as an absolute last resort if I'm desperate for 20-or-so extra points as I near my goal.
I will, however, be going to collect the remaining 33 points on the table at Motegi 8hr at some point, and may try to cleanly up my total from 147 / 200 at Roadster 4hr (done thusly, which also addresses Open Addict's tyre question) by running a low HP '91 J-Limited or if I have to by buying another '89 in worn form. (My original one was a 6.2 mile special very early on in my game and received some mods to run in the Roadster Cup before I discovered the stock car thread and pretty much stopped modding there and then!)

 

[shotamagee]

After a bit of a search, i found this thread so I'm giving it some CPR.

Now that I've completed my game to 100% I'm now aiming to go back through the game to pick up as many a-spec points as possible. I did most of the endurance hall for 200pts the first time through (I didn't want to do the long endurance races any more than once.)

After doing the endurance hall races mainly OLR clean and AI contact free I've become addicted the challenge involved in racing this way, so now I want to do the same for the shorter races. But how realistic is it to be AI & OLR clean, avoid NOS and chase 200 points for the shorter races?

I really have only just started, so far I've done the first 2/4 easy special conditions races this way (tuned Honda Element), and the difficulty level so far has been perfect. (Find the right tyre, power & weight configuration to be able beat the AI, then watch the AI to find the best spot to complete the pass, then pull it off)

But i want some more experienced opinions before going too much further, with this approach. Reading the posts in this thread, it seems the no AI contact approach may have to be abandoned if i want to get a decent amount of points in the shorter 1 make/manufacturer type races.

So should my goal be to get as many points as possible completely AI contact free even if it only nets me 100 or so points, or should the goal be to get 200 for each race and just do it as cleanly as possible.

Also if i go for the first method, there's no dedicated forum for this; as races won't be stock, but it won't necessarily be for 200pts either. (have to start my own i guess)

Cheers

 

[SuperCobraJet]

After a bit of a search, i found this thread so I'm giving it some CPR.

Now that I've completed my game to 100% I'm now aiming to go back through the game to pick up as many a-spec points as possible. I did most of the endurance hall for 200pts the first time through (I didn't want to do the long endurance races any more than once.)

After doing the endurance hall races mainly OLR clean and AI contact free I've become addicted the challenge involved in racing this way, so now I want to do the same for the shorter races. But how realistic is it to be AI & OLR clean, avoid NOS and chase 200 points for the shorter races?

I really have only just started, so far I've done the first 2/4 easy special conditions races this way (tuned Honda Element), and the difficulty level so far has been perfect. (Find the right tyre, power & weight configuration to be able beat the AI, then watch the AI to find the best spot to complete the pass, then pull it off)

But i want some more experienced opinions before going too much further, with this approach. Reading the posts in this thread, it seems the no AI contact approach may have to be abandoned if i want to get a decent amount of points in the shorter 1 make/manufacturer type races.

So should my goal be to get as many points as possible completely AI contact free even if it only nets me 100 or so points, or should the goal be to get 200 for each race and just do it as cleanly as possible.

Also if i go for the first method, there's no dedicated forum for this; as races won't be stock, but it won't necessarily be for 200pts either. (have to start my own i guess)

Cheers

You will have to search the 200pt threads thoroughly, but I recall a couple guys getting 100,000 without NOS or without roughing up the AI.
I'm not sure its doable under both restrictions.
At any rate, there is only one way to find out.

In my view NOS was anything but cheating, since you are put at such a huge disadvantage in many of the races. At times NOS was of little help as you will undoubtedly discover.
Likewise being in a severely disadvantaged car made playing rough with the AI an absolute necessity at times, to gain the maximum points.

I wish you the best in this undertaking and hope you can prevail, however you decide to pursue it.
Take with you an abundance of patience and perseverance, as it is likely you will need ample quantities of both.
The amount of info in these threads can help reduce that requirement, so be sure to use them.

 

[PF]

The use of NOS is surely a personal decision. I use it sometimes in 200pt races only because I'm a **** driver. As others have said, it's not really cheating in most 200pt races because you're usually so heavily disadvantaged by driving an inferior car.

As SCJ said, scour the 200pt sub-forum, and look for names that keep coming up with good ideas (eg, SCJ). Many have migrated to GT5 for the moment but others (_raVer_ for example) are still active and making progress.

IIRC Smallhorses made 100k points with no NOS and OLR clean, but to get to 111,813 requires NOS and 'dirty' driving. However, I can't confirm this from experience, just the lessons learned from my esteemed colleagues on this site.

 

[Dotini]

The use of NOS is surely a personal decision. I use it sometimes in 200pt races only because I'm a **** driver. As others have said, it's not really cheating in most 200pt races because you're usually so heavily disadvantaged by driving an inferior car.

As SCJ said, scour the 200pt sub-forum, and look for names that keep coming up with good ideas (eg, SCJ). Many have migrated to GT5 for the moment but others (_raVer_ for example) are still active and making progress.

IIRC Smallhorses made 100k points with no NOS and OLR clean, but to get to 111,813 requires NOS and 'dirty' driving. However, I can't confirm this from experience, just the lessons learned from my esteemed colleagues on this site.

PF is right.

 

[shotamagee]

Thanks guys, I know all about the 200 point sub forum, I've wadded through many pages in there looking for info.
I know there's no right or wrong way to approach things, but I'm leaning towards attempting, no NOS, OLR clean (for short races) and minimal AI contact, and see how many points i can collect like that. I just feel like it would be good to nail down a consistent set of (self) rules seeing as how I've just started the A-spec quest.

 

[BobK]

I've always felt that "rubbing's racin'" so making contact with the AI has never concerned me all that much. Especially since the AI make no effort whatsoever to avoid you except sometimes on the straights.

However I've always considered NOS to be cheating, because no major sanctioning body outside of drag racing allows it. This is my opinion, I know that others have a different opinion, and I respect that; I won't go around accusing others of being cheaters for using it (but I may slip in a "yeah but you used NOS to do it" type comment).

It's a given that to reach 111,813 points requires use of NOS and dirty driving. This is why I'll never reach that plateau. The fact that I'm also a crappy driver has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

 

[Dotini]

I've always felt that "rubbing's racin'" so making contact with the AI has never concerned me all that much. Especially since the AI make no effort whatsoever to avoid you except sometimes on the straights.

However I've always considered NOS to be cheating, because no major sanctioning body outside of drag racing allows it. This is my opinion, I know that others have a different opinion, and I respect that; I won't go around accusing others of being cheaters for using it (but I may slip in a "yeah but you used NOS to do it" type comment).

It's a given that to reach 111,813 points requires use of NOS and dirty driving. This is why I'll never reach that plateau. The fact that I'm also a crappy driver has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

One of many improvements in GT5 is the fact that it omits NOS altogether.
100,000 A-spec points without NOS is a noble goal - nobler than 111,793 with it.

 

[shotamagee]

I've always felt that "rubbing's racin'" so making contact with the AI has never concerned me all that much. Especially since the AI make no effort whatsoever to avoid you except sometimes on the straights.

I think the only reason that trying to keep races clean interests me is because the AI is so brain dead. Because they take the same line lap after lap, and are generally unaware of their surroundings, you can anticipate what their gonna do, meaning you can (hopefully) avoid them as well. This sort of thing doesn't concern me the least in the other racing games, i think its also because there is no damage, so there is some incentive for someone who's a bit anal like me to make up their own rules to compensate.