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No there wouldn't.
My standpoint on "Separation of Church & State"
- Thread starter rjensen11
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- 2,732
There wasn't any problem with the idea in Afganinstan, just as Communism is not necessarily a the worst thing in the world. The same problem applies to both: They were extorted and the leaders changed the rules, just so it would benefit themselves, and not care what other people thought. It's the idea that was good, not necessarily the actual result. But now things are clearing up in Afganistan, and communism is decreasing.
Perhaps you'd like to research how minority religions are treated in Saudi Arabia?
The issue here is that monotheistic governments do not work for ethnically and religiously diverse cultures - by definition, they can not. Where there is such scope for potential discrimination against those who do not follow the state religion, these minorities will become increasinly marginalised and ill-treated, particularly if the state becomes concerned about its own security, and there are countless examples of precisely that happening throughout history - look at how the Romans treated the early Christians.
The issue here is that monotheistic governments do not work for ethnically and religiously diverse cultures - by definition, they can not. Where there is such scope for potential discrimination against those who do not follow the state religion, these minorities will become increasinly marginalised and ill-treated, particularly if the state becomes concerned about its own security, and there are countless examples of precisely that happening throughout history - look at how the Romans treated the early Christians.
Pako
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As long as there are opinions of one group, there will always be opositioning opinions of another group. We will never know peace in this area as it is too much of our human nature to present our views and ideas onto others, like we found some great secret that everyone should know about. If we have church and state integrated, some people will find peace in that, as well as some good education of morals that have been historically adobted by many generations as a provin way of life. On the other hand, your always going to have people on the other side of the fence who either choose no religion or a different religion that will be in oposition of the idea. The reverse also applies. Who's right? Who's wrong? The sad tragety that I have come to see is the lack of moral values in our society today. We have laws that mean nothing, and a justice system with more holes in it than swiss cheese. As a result, we have made a society that say's, if I don't get caught, or if I can get away with it, then it's ok for me to do it.
I have noticed that with the removal of "God" in our public school system, that something else has been intoduced to help balance the loss of moral thought, and that is ethics. You can see more and more themes of ethics being taught in our school systems than ever before. Perhaps to fill the hole that was made...
Just some food for thought...
~Peace~
I have noticed that with the removal of "God" in our public school system, that something else has been intoduced to help balance the loss of moral thought, and that is ethics. You can see more and more themes of ethics being taught in our school systems than ever before. Perhaps to fill the hole that was made...
Just some food for thought...
~Peace~
mayorbill11
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i'm an athiest. i'm not going to live in a society that forces religion apon us.
religion is basically a form of social control, make people behave by telling them bad things will happen to them in the next place after death - whatever it is to each religion. It is also responsible for the majority of wars that have happened throughout history. If people want to believe a certain faith; fine, it helps many people get though life and events in life that happen to them, but everyone should have the freedom to believe what they like without it causing any conflict.
Religion can be a good thing but, also a bad thing.
Religion can be a good thing but, also a bad thing.
- 2,732
I'd like to live in Austria, being that I'm Catholic, but I also heard that the system they have is pretty good. While they have Religion in schools, the laws aren't all completley based by the Bible. Can anybody elaborate more on how they have this set up? I've only heard a little from my sister, who spent a year there as an exchange student(and, sadly, she has many stories to say that not all Austrians were 'good Catholics')
- 2,732
Just thought this was a good place to post these, since, yeah...
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/index.htm
http://people.vanderbilt.edu/~scott.a.mcdermott/index.htm
http://www.rosary.org/
They don't hurt anything, and if anything, the end ones help the most, probably. Especially the rosary website.
The only problems I find with the websites, especially the Rosary one, are that they're in Modern English, why couldn't they stay as they use to be, in traditional english? Or why not Latin?
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/index.htm
http://people.vanderbilt.edu/~scott.a.mcdermott/index.htm
http://www.rosary.org/
They don't hurt anything, and if anything, the end ones help the most, probably. Especially the rosary website.
The only problems I find with the websites, especially the Rosary one, are that they're in Modern English, why couldn't they stay as they use to be, in traditional english? Or why not Latin?
Pako
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Because of Darwin's Theory of Evolution....
J/K, but seriously....it seems that many religions try to conform as much as they can stomach to make it more appealing to the general public. For example:
Most denominations were totally against body markings such as tatoo's because it defaced the temple of God (it says in the Bible that your body is the temple of God). I now know of many churches that even support it as it gives them more of a chance to reach young people because you "look" the part and might help them to be more open to their suggestions.
Well, here it is. A lot of the comments made here seem to make the assumption that a moral code does not exist without religion - which as an agnostic/atheistic person I find personally offensive - I don't cheat, lie (well, maybe little ones...
), beat people up, commit crimes etc. I work hard and try to lead a good life - I have a personal moral code that was probably taught to me by good parents.Personal Opinion Time - note this is based on feeling and intuition, not any form of logic. RANT ALERT!
I think a lot of the 'moral' issues stem from a lot of people not taking on personal responsibility for themselves, and then by extension their children, over the last 30 years or so. This has been exacerbated by the US corporate style model, which seems to force people to spend more time at work and less at home because basically it drives productivity by screwing more and more out of the same level of workforce.
This combined with the continual 'consume now!' and 'selfish' messages sent by western advertising has meant that we are increasingly self-obsessed and further driven to material wealth, ignoring the life issues that spirituality in religious and non-religious forms help to address. How is it that we have so many time-saving devices, yet are more hurried and shorter of leisure time than ever? How is that we have enormous material wealth, and yet levels of depression and suicide are higher?
Another factor is the loss of the feeling of community - and I think this stems from the erosion in both the conduct and perception of public institutions (such as corruption in Govt, business and church, mass layoffs in recent years seen as a breach in the unwritten 'contract' between employee and employer). Many people feel cut-off, left out of and betrayed by society - these people may be stuck in a rut through lack of education, they may have been laid off, they have in effect been abandoned by western societies as their jobs move offshore to Mexico, to Taiwan, to Vietnam, wherever labour is cheaper - and as a result, the contract between the citizen, who promises to work and obey the law, and society, who promises to look after the individual and provide for them working or not, is broken, and there is nowhere for that person to go.
All of these factors are contributing to a 'decline in moral standards'.
We have become fat and selfish, and we have abandoned those at the bottom end of the socio-economic scale. It's happening at a city level (some of the suburbs of outer western Sydney are, for Australia's richest city, an embarrassment of unemployment), at a country level (Australia's treatment of aboriginies) and at an international level (treatment of refugees, poor African countries). We are reaping what we have sown, guys.
End Rant
Sorry about that - I do feel better though...
- 2,732
I'm actuall agreeing
What our society has become is basicall our selfish needs, and not the best needs. More and more often, parents are dropping their kids off at sports activities(baseball practice, football, et cetera) and using them as day cares. What we basically need to do is shape up.
And the thing about supporting things such as tatoos, as of my knowledge, the Catholic Church still condemns that, as well as many other things(eg premarital sex, birth control, body piercing?, etc)
What our society has become is basicall our selfish needs, and not the best needs. More and more often, parents are dropping their kids off at sports activities(baseball practice, football, et cetera) and using them as day cares. What we basically need to do is shape up.
And the thing about supporting things such as tatoos, as of my knowledge, the Catholic Church still condemns that, as well as many other things(eg premarital sex, birth control, body piercing?, etc)
Pako
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Yes vat_man, you are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, most of our society has choosen for the public to raise their children without the guidance of thoughtful parents with enough insite to teach their kids morality, you know, that basic good vs. bad....right from wrong. It is ignorant to say that non-religious people can never be, nor are good people. I sincerely appologize if I came off that way.. 
I know alot of people who are spiritually centered that are "good" people, that are not religous. What I do see are those who rely on society to raise their kids requiring more than a godless government to be integrated into the curriculum for their kids and that's where ethics were introduced into text books.
I totally agree that each individual is a isolated case and no blanket statement should be made to describe one group of people over another. The wise person is one who is open to all things and can learn from other people.
If someone can find peace in "their" religion than they are on their journey to better themselves. Wheither it's Christianity, Budism, Buddism, Jewism, Hinduism, or Surfism....the end result makes a better person out of them through disepline and awareness of their surroundings and the people around them.
People can find peace in many things, I know what works for me. And in going back to the subject of this thread (as I've obviously have gone off track) most of us are lazy slobs that work our entire life to be able to take a picture of our entertainment center and all our cars, boats, and rooms full of "things" so that we can say we have achieved greatness, missing the whole point in life. Wheither or not there is seperation between church and state, people will always find their way what ever is and I feel fortunate to live in a country that my life is not in danger when I express my views or practice my religion.
~Peace~
I know alot of people who are spiritually centered that are "good" people, that are not religous. What I do see are those who rely on society to raise their kids requiring more than a godless government to be integrated into the curriculum for their kids and that's where ethics were introduced into text books.I totally agree that each individual is a isolated case and no blanket statement should be made to describe one group of people over another. The wise person is one who is open to all things and can learn from other people.
If someone can find peace in "their" religion than they are on their journey to better themselves. Wheither it's Christianity, Budism, Buddism, Jewism, Hinduism, or Surfism....the end result makes a better person out of them through disepline and awareness of their surroundings and the people around them.
People can find peace in many things, I know what works for me. And in going back to the subject of this thread (as I've obviously have gone off track) most of us are lazy slobs that work our entire life to be able to take a picture of our entertainment center and all our cars, boats, and rooms full of "things" so that we can say we have achieved greatness, missing the whole point in life. Wheither or not there is seperation between church and state, people will always find their way what ever is and I feel fortunate to live in a country that my life is not in danger when I express my views or practice my religion.
~Peace~
Originally posted by Pako
It is ignorant to say that non-religious people can never be, nor are good people. I sincerely appologize if I came off that way..
It's cool - the comment wasn't aimed at anyone.
This touches on a lot of issues - including education, parental influence, advertising, religion, respect for others, law making - to approach it on a simple basis is simply impossible, particularly in western countries where people are free to pursue their own road to happiness.
A significant proportion of the population seem to be unable to find their own path to happiness, and in responding to a deluge of advertising and an absence of credible alternatives have decided, by default if you will, that material possessions will provide that path - and are devastated to find that once established, the craving of consumerism can never be satisfied, setting the stage for jealousy and greed.
Seem to be on a bit of a philosophical bender today...
Pako
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yes it is a bit of a philosophical bender... I would say that the need for power and money has manifested it's self in media and advertising. Teaching us that "Instant Gratification" can be achieved. This is something that is taught at a very young age. What these information sources fail to convey is that this form of gratification cannot be maintained. It's like an open sore that never heals, no matter how much we try to treat the symtom with more things... It's a festering sore that continues to eat away at the soul... 
Dang sorry about it...
Don't know where that came from....Must be bed time...... :sleep:
- 2,732
I agree with that, but there's also a matter of respect. I find that there are 4 types of people:
Strict creationists
Creationists
Combo of creationism and evolutionism
Strict evolutionism
I'm somewhere in 2. But I've also noticed that people who are in the strict evolutionism can be EXTREMELY rude to any/all of the other 3 groups. These also happen to be the people who write the science books for schools to use. What I suggest is either that we get an alternative to Evolutionism or simply take it out, and replace it with something that's 100% proven.
I also don't think it would be bad for classes to occasionally read out of the Bible, for 'ethical' reasons and such, but that just wouldn't fly with today's society...
True - and we've visited this dead end before.
I find it curious how a US Christianity in particular seems to find evolution so threatening - the Christian faith survived Copernicus (earth around the sun) and Galileo. The inability of any insitution to accept and adapt to change is often the cause of its ultimate passing.
Not following a Christian faith I'm probably not in a position to comment but I would have thought the concept of a God sitting over the top of these amazing processes would have been fairly compatible with the Christian notion of God - the reason I call myself agnostic rather than atheistic is that I accept that there may be a superior being running the show, I just don't buy the whole associated church/Christian thing.
Mmm...
- 2,732
Well, Vat_man, I'm glad you're not an Athiest. It means that you're not welded shut, but are wide open ready to take valid points.
Back to the part about replacing if we take out Evolution. I ment to suggest that if we keep evolutionism in schools, we must have alternatives, in case we do not wish to go against Faith, if you believe in something other than Evolutionism. If we pull it out, I thought that we might as well just cover another topic, such as the current status of our world, and how we've screwed it over. Of course, the topic could be whatever you wanted, as long as it didn't have to do with the way Life came to be, or the Earth for that matter.
Back to the part about replacing if we take out Evolution. I ment to suggest that if we keep evolutionism in schools, we must have alternatives, in case we do not wish to go against Faith, if you believe in something other than Evolutionism. If we pull it out, I thought that we might as well just cover another topic, such as the current status of our world, and how we've screwed it over. Of course, the topic could be whatever you wanted, as long as it didn't have to do with the way Life came to be, or the Earth for that matter.
