My standpoint on "Separation of Church & State"

  • Thread starter rjensen11
  • 229 comments
  • 6,454 views
Originally posted by duo17
Neon,
You have a habit of doing that. Do you type that much to get the competition too tired to argue or do you just think a lot about what you're gonna type?
duo17: That second one. Before I form an opinion or make a choice, I try to do a lot of careful research and give it some serious consideration. You'll note that if I'm not sure of my thoughts I either don't post, or post only very short comments.

I have a strong opinion on this subject that I have formed after looking at lots of differing views, theories, and historical works. I explained those thoughts as clearly as I can, which takes up some space, indeed. Am I totally closed to the possibility of changing my opinion on this subject? Not at all. Have I seen any evidence that tells me I might need to change it? Not so far in my life.

It's going to take a lot more than what I've seen so far in this thread. And I will gladly offer respect to a differing opinion, if I am shown that the other person has been as careful in choosing their view as I have in mine.

That's why I keep giving it back to Alexy, every time he stirs my pot. So far he hasn't offered me a shred of evidence supporting his view. He's made a bunch of one-liner statements that are off to the side of the fundamental argument, and he's never backed them up. I like to discuss ideas, but I like to discuss them well! So I explain my thinking at length in the hopes that others can/will do the same.

Remember - the unexamined life ain't worth living.

Anyway, nothing against you at all, duo17. Sorry about being long winded again.
 
Originally posted by neon_duke
People who claim that the "separation of church and state" means that no religious word can ever be uttered in public schools are deliberately overstating the issue...


Um, there've been people who've gotten suspended or had more serious punishments for bringing the Bible to school. I remember reading in the paper how a little kid got in trouble for bringing his bible in for "Show & Tell"

It's all a matter of where you are, and how strict people are in slamming people on tiny things. What I'm purposing is something to protect people from getting slammed.
 
Oh, and Neon, you did that thing about typing too much again in your last post... Look at its length compared to everyone else's...

:eek:

He's made a bunch of one-liner statements...

That's because that's normally the limit of many people's attention spans
 
Originally posted by rjensen11
Oh, and Neon, you did that thing about typing too much again in your last post... Look at its length compared to everyone else's...
That's because that's normally the limit of
many people's attention spans
Well, then, that is their problem, not mine. If people can't be bothered to hold a philosophical/moral position that stands up to more than two or three lines of examination, then they desrerve everything they get.

Please point out a specific example of someone who got suspended or otherwise punished just for bringing a Bible to school. I don't believe it, unless there were other circumstances left out of that story, such as the person insisted on quoting from it during biology class, or continuously evangelized among the students, or some such inappropriate behaviour. By all means, prove it to me and I will believe it. Otherwise, don't waste my time.

Which is pretty much how I feel about religion in general.

There is no proof whatsoever - positive or negative - concerning the existence of a god. Your Bible and Torah and Koran mean nothing in terms of objective, factual proof. Logically, god is a null issue because there is no data to interpret.

On the other hand, there is a huge preponderance of physical proof, explained by consistent scientific theories, that explains the basics and a lot of the details of how the universe operates. Before you go off, see my words on 'science' and the definition of 'theory' above.

So I am faced with a null issue on one hand, and a huge quantity of rational, objective data on the other. Until you can show real proof of the existence of a god, fully as in depth, detailed, and concrete as the evidence of a scientific universe is, I will not believe in a god. My senses have given me no input concerning a god. My rational mind has no data. I might just as well believe in fairies, ghosts, Atlantis, or a giant turtle that holds the world on his back. Since there are endless bizarre possibilities in a subjective, irrational universe founded on a god, I will accept the objective, physical data given to me by my senses and I will continue to acknowledge a physical, rational universe.
 
Originally posted by neon_duke

Well, then, that is their problem, not mine. If people can't be bothered to hold a philosophical/moral position that stands up to more than two or three lines of examination, then they desrerve everything they get...

Did you say anything after that? Sorry...


Originally posted by vat_man
Hey - don't be dissing the turtle!!

Where'd he say that?
 
rjesnsen-- You create a topic in which you wish to discuss these issues, then, for lack of any counter-attack, you portray a huge bout of ignorance? Do you know how ridiculous that is?
 
All of my points are still open. I'm game. If someone (such as rjensen11, who actually started the thread) cares to debate this issue, the ball is in their court.

I hope they do.
 
Well, the actual topic at hand is the idea of Church and State. It just seems that Evolution vs. Creationism always pops into the equation.

I'm aiming my discussion at a wider view of religion vs. rationality in general. This to me is the fundamental issue as to why church and state need to be separate and why the writers of the Constitution knew exactly what they were doing.
 
:lol: yes indeed...., to the topic. I totally agree that science in a study of mistakes to refinement to better understand our world through study of facts. This is outstanding that our society has gone to great lengths to research these things by the best means of our current technology. I often find fault, however, when a new measuring tool is used to provided data that is taken as "fact" then taught as such. There's theories of evolution that was taught 15 years ago that are no longer taught because science has proven other wise, and are now teaching new "facts" based on new measuring tools claim increased accuracy. Why teach it as fact when it is mear scientific speculation. Even in science there is a element of faith which isn't far from religion which is based on faith.

Science says the we as humans as well as the rest of the universe comes from the product of evolution. As we all know, evolution is the genetic change of a species to adapt to it's environment when the environment changes. Without change in the environment there would be no evolution. The one question that has yet to be ansered through science is where did it all come from. Has "matter" always existed? Where was the beginning and where did the original "stuff" come from that would have a need to evolve? It is my personal conclusion that a higher power, an entity, or divine force created the first "matter". It is through science and the study of evolution that we are detecting and analyzing the process of creation. I would love to get into this further but my lunch time is running short.....

~Peace~
 
Originally posted by Pako
1.) I often find fault, however, when a new measuring tool is used to provided data that is taken as "fact" then taught as such.
<snip>
2.) Why teach it as fact when it is mear scientific speculation. Even in science there is a element of faith which isn't far from religion which is based on faith.
<snip>
3.) Without change in the environment there would be no evolution.
Pako: as always, it's good to debate with someone who has at least considered his intellectual position and is not just absorbing the unquestioned influence of whatever happens to be the largest authority figure in his life.
There are a couple of items I'd like to pull from your response and discuss further. These are outlined above (I've added numbers).

1.) I don't know how your high school was, but in my science classes items were either presented as fact or theory. Most of my Chemistry and Physics classes were taught as fact: ie, "a water molecule can be broken down into two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom via electrolysis." This is a fact and was presented as such. There were some areas that were presented as theory: ie, Einstein's Special and General Relativities. In Biology, a lot was also given as fact where facts are known. Evolution was taught as a theory, much like Einstein: as a set of rules that fit the vast majority of the available data, and that can be used to predict future actions and circumstances. In all of these classes, a certain amount of scientific history was included, which covered the refinements and errors of science throughout the centuries.

2.) I think you are painting with too broad a brush here. Actual, real, "scientific speculation" is not mere wool gathering on the part of scientific thinkers. It doesn't just pop into their heads - it is based on careful, repeated, unbiased observation of real occurances. There is a vast and fundamental difference between taking on faith that the Bible was inspired by God, and believing the physical evidence of our eyes and instruments, and the ability of our mind to perceive that reality does in fact exist as an objective entity.

3.) This is not true. Evolution is in fact the method by which a species adapts to its environment, true. However, if the environment never changed (geologically speaking), an organism would simply become more and more adapted to that special environment.

There's plenty more to go but I am also out of time at the moment.
 
Originally posted by rjensen11

'Bout evolution again, here's my question:

So you have 1 organism. How can it get its energy? If it were a plant, it would need CO2, but since there were no animals, what would produce it? If it were an animal, how could it get its energy? I could not eat anything, because there would be nothing for it to eat. Same goes for bacteria.

Also, so you have one organism, how can it change into a plant, or a plant into an animal?

Do some research, when the earth was created, it was full of CO2 its main source was from the hundreds of volcanoes.
Simple cell oraganisms (one celled) don't need food if has chloroplasts to start photosynthesis which in time created OXYGEN .

Most bacteria at that time lived off of SULFUR which was extremely (lack of words) available. The source: once again Volcanoes.

Some simple celled organisms found it easier to just digest the ones around it. (Remember: Simple Cell organisms are as effecient as they can get for there environment.) These became herbivours (sp).

The herbaviour (sp) organisms EVOLVED into fish like things and the other simple cells (with chloroplasts) EVOLVED into plants. Of course the plants came first. This happened over millions of years.

As for the one organism thing at the end, one word: Evolution.

PS: I'm not an aietheist (sp?) but i reseach both sides of the argument before i say anything. No offense to anyone.
 
Originally posted by Pako
:lol: yes indeed...., to the topic. I totally agree that science in a study of mistakes to refinement to better understand our world through study of facts. This is outstanding that our society has gone to great lengths to research these things by the best means of our current technology. I often find fault, however, when a new measuring tool is used to provided data that is taken as "fact" then taught as such. There's theories of evolution that was taught 15 years ago that are no longer taught because science has proven other wise, and are now teaching new "facts" based on new measuring tools claim increased accuracy. Why teach it as fact when it is mear scientific speculation. Even in science there is a element of faith which isn't far from religion which is based on faith.

Science says the we as humans as well as the rest of the universe comes from the product of evolution. As we all know, evolution is the genetic change of a species to adapt to it's environment when the environment changes. Without change in the environment there would be no evolution. The one question that has yet to be ansered through science is where did it all come from. Has "matter" always existed? Where was the beginning and where did the original "stuff" come from that would have a need to evolve? It is my personal conclusion that a higher power, an entity, or divine force created the first "matter". It is through science and the study of evolution that we are detecting and analyzing the process of creation. I would love to get into this further but my lunch time is running short.....

~Peace~

And where did this stuff come from to create the "Big Bang?" I can understand the "Shot heard 'round the world," but a big bang out of nothingness?

Back to Duke, I agree that this thread way off-topic now, and perhaps this is the time to call it quits...
 
Neon,

1.) They taught certain rocks, fossils, ect...through carbon dating were a certain age which has now proven to be scientific guess work. They now use Radiation dating which is more accurate (sometimes). So now you see, they have new "facts" or scientific data that is being taught, along with new theories that are being derived from the new facts.

2.) Yes, but it takes faith to make the assumption that the instruments being used are in fact providing us with accurate information. There was a divice that was made to detect nutrons passing through a hole. The experiment was used to see if two nutrons would pass through the same hole or not. What they discovered was each time the instrument was used to detect a certian action, the outcome of the experiment would produce the same results, but as soon as it was set up to detect a different outcome, those results would be the outcome. This was a closed system, yet it appeared that the tool that was used to detect the outcome detected exactly what they wanted to which was inconsistant of what they were trying to detect. (I'm looking for a link which might better explain this...)

3.)You are absolutely correct, but I was not limiting the environment to geological changes... :)

Is it fair to say that science has really only become relative in the last two or three hundred years or so? Through technology of our own design we are given more and more tools to look deeper into our universe than ever before. The more advance we become, the more we come to realize how much we don't know.

So is creationism a science? Should it be taught as such? People (kids) should be given the choice to decide which theories or ideas they would like to adopt. Creation of the universe isn't much harder to swallow that the idea that humans came from a caticlismic event of exploding gas millions/billions/trillions of years ago. The idea that we can have the diversity of all the different species of plants, animals, minerials, personallities, problems, solutions, emotions, and ideas all from a single massive event isn't any more unbelieveable than a supreme being creating us and all the diversity of the universe.

The purpose of schools is to educate our youth. transitive and intransitive verb teach: to give knowledge to or develop the abilities of somebody by teaching {educated at a public school}
There shouldn't be a selective knowlege base of which to be taught from, but rather expanded.

I might also add that any seperation of Church and State issues that are persued are done so out of fear. Can we agree that the origin of this debate in the US Government stems from fear? Why must we be driven by fear? I would much rather be driven by the thirst for knowlege and the gain of spiritual awareness of myself, the people around me, and the world I live in. When ever we are driven by fear, we become blind to other possibilities, outcomes, and solutions. If you take fear out of the equation, we could have the opertunity to develop in a much more open way which would excellerate our evolutionary process of becoming a more advanced race; socially, mentally, and spiritually.

~Peace~
 
Pako:

Actually, carbon dating was always known to have a finite range of effectiveness, because the rate of radioactive decay in C14 is a known quantity. Truthfully it is anti-evolution creationists who have pointed at the alleged "errors" of carbon dating and tried to use that as another method of discrediting science. Carbon dating has never actually been used by scientists beyond a scope of about 50-100,000 years, because they have always known that is the limit of its effectiveness.

To call this 'scientific guesswork' borders on laughable considering that all religious thought is by definition guesswork.

I disagree about the level of 'faith' required in trusting your instruments. My five senses tell me about the reality that surrounds me. Reality is a physical, objective thing. Our brains are capable of interpreting it rationally. This doesn't take faith, this takes confidence. There is a difference. We build devices to amplify the details of this physical reality for us. Those devices are not always perfect, true; but the scientific method if properly applied will point out where the instruments are affecting the results - as it did in the case you mentioned.

How can you begin to say that creationism is a science? It has nothing whatsoever to do with observing and interpreting objective reality. It's based on studying and interpreting a myth, with no other reference than the myth itself.

You say "The idea that we can have the diversity of all the different species ... and ideas all from a single massive event isn't any more unbelieveable than a supreme being creating us and all the diversity of the universe." I disagree utterly. There is physical proof of the existence of reality all around us. Our rational understanding of how that reality came to be is 100% based upon our research into that reality, with all of its proof contained in the reality itself. On the other hand, there is no proof whatsoever of the existence of some mystic Creator. Again, the only proof is from the creation myth itself. That is totally circular logic. If you believe a myth saying God created the universe, I guarantee you that myth will 'prove' the existence of God to those who believe it. Talk about a closed-loop system!

The fact that we do not yet understand exactly how the universe came in to existence in no way proves that it must have been magically created by a mystic god. Again, the mere physical existence of the universe does not prove the existence of something to create it.

As I've stated before, I have no problem seeing Creationism taught as part of a social/anthropological curriculum. As a myth constructed 100% by man - not a scientific theory based on careful physical observations of the real world - that is where it belongs. I agree wholeheartedly that Creationism should be taught as part of the wide base of knowledge given to all students, along with a variety of similar myths generated by other cultures. However I refuse to grant it the same status as a physical science.

And no, I do not agree at all that fear is prompting separation of Church and State. What makes you say that? The separation came about from the earnest desire on the part of the Constitutional authors to guarantee a maximum of religious freedom. If you say that doesn't include the freedom from religion as well as the freedom of religion, you are selling the Founding Fathers short and fundamentally mistaking the premises on which the United States is founded.

How is an idea conceived to guarantee personal liberty somehow driven by fear? I am not afraid of religious people. I am only afraid that religion will be forced upon me. I am not afraid of the knowledge of a creation myth. I am only afraid it will be taught as a science.

Religion is irrational by definition. It is not based on any logical interpretation of physical reality. Religion states that behind the physical, understandable, predictable universe, there is an invisible, unknowable, undefineable entity that humans can never understand. When this irrationality is taught as equal or superior to rationality, then human beings are deprived of control over their lives, their actions, their bodies, their minds. To me, this is true evil.

It's as simple as that. Why would you choose abdicate your mind and your life - which definitely exist - in favor of something that is by definition unprovable and unseen?
 
The fear factor manifests itself because if creation becomes taught as a possibility, then the rest of the religious package might also become part of standard curriculum. At that point, which and how indebth should the religion be taught? I'm not saying that religion should be taught in schools as science, but rather that creation is possible and should not be overlooked in defining our origin.

As you can see the debate is wheither or not God exists and if it should taught as fact or myth. Because something cannot be seen, does not discount it's existance. This is something that science and history has been teaching us for a very long time. The earth was flat and that was their reality because they perceived as such until it was proven otherwise. There are facts all round us that would lead us into the direction of enforcing our faith in the existance of God. Such evidence can be interprited as chance, karma, or simply unexplained. Sequences of events in peoples lives that are orchestrated by divine intervention should be proof enough, but it's not because it hasn't happened to you personally (general populas). If someone were to discover a new life form and print it in a book, you would believe that it exists based on that persons experience, yet in the personal experiences of people who have had divine intervention in their lives are discounted and ignored. Why are these facts overlooked? These experiences are not myth, but reality. Myths and folklore have no direct actions in our lives today, but God's intervention does. That distinction needs to be made before the existance of God (or a divine power) can be called a myth. Faith and trust in many ways are one in the same, the main difference is that trust is earned through repetition. We trust calculators to be correct when they make thier calculations because they have proven time and time agian that their calculations are correct. Through my own personal experiences my faith in God has turned into trust by countless actions in my life that confirm His existance through my willingness to acknowlege Him. Is not science that is taught in school a collection of experience that have been documented and translated into text books? A lot of science can be studied through hands-on experience in the lab, but how much of the science that is taught based on documented proof that cannot be proven through experiments in a lab? I am not discounting science, but I don't think other evidence should be discounted because it might enforce religious views and/or opinions which surround other belief systems that cannot be proven or re-enforced through evidence. A school of thought that some people have a hard time adopting is that "Reality is how you perceive it". Perception is what helps us define our environment. We try to define our environment because, as humans, we ask the question "Why?". I agree that just because science cannot prove the origin of the universe that we need to look towards creation as the explaination, but it should not be ruled out. When I was in High School, during a class discussion of the "Big Bang" I asked the teacher, "What about the possibility of creation, could that have happened?". The teacher became nervous and never answered the question. Why is it such a egg shell topic? Mathmatically speaking, the probability of our existance through chance of evolution is highly unlikely due in part of just the numbers. Lets take a look at this example:

http://www.nwinfo.net/~ahtanum/Proof.html

As you can see, it is highly unlikely that the evolution process was not orchestrated by an outside force. What is this force? Is it nature's primal desire for survival? I doubt that in our life time we will ever know without a doubt, proven with undeniable scientific proof of the origin of the universe, but until we have that proof, we need to keep an open mind to all alternatives and schools of thought regarding this. We should not be limiting our thoughts during this exploration because the government says so. Outside of the public school system, we are given the freedom to explore all possibilities, but why skew our perseption of the ultimate truth that we are trying to discover within the confines of our schools.

~Peace~
 
Well, in my mind, Pako, the fear factor creeps in when people dare to question the existence of a god. Because a religious person by definition cannot offer any proof beyond their own belief, they immediately seem threatened by anyone who is unwilling to automatically share that faith.

I am not automatically willing to do that. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that a god exists. I have not personally seen Jupiter, either, but I have seen other solid bodies that obey the laws of physics, and I am capable of generalizing that behavior to include planetary systems, which predict that a body of the same apparent mass, location, and velocity will in fact be where Jupiter has proven to be by observation. If I was capable of generating the wealth, and I had the desire to do so, I could have a ship built to take me out there to see it for myself.

No amount of time, money, or effort will ever allow me to go see god. Remember I am talking about seeing a physical entity, not just finding some mystic faith and taking that feeling as proof.

The same reason holds for why I would accept at face value someone's claim to have discovered a new species. Given time and money, I could always go see for myself where and what the new creature is.

Yet, if I travelled to visit every single solitary person in America who would witness to me the 'personal intervention of God in their lives', I'd still be left with nothing but their stories. They could tell me what happened and ask me to believe that it was caused by god. But could they show me god? No. You can point out as many 'sequences of events that occured through divine intervention' all you want, but it is just anecdotal evidence. You can't call up the replay tape and say "See? Right... there is where the hand of God saved the day." Those are stories - myths - not facts.

Can't you see the difference? Don't you understand why they are not the same thing? It's not just that I don't want to believe in god. It's that there is no objective proof that god exists. Science is not just a collection of experiences put into a textbook and taught. It is the quality and type of experience that makes the difference between theory and myth.

By the way, I read through the supposed mathematical 'proof' that God must exist. I didn't bother to crunch the numbers (or even look them up - and I suspect a few of them) but taking them on face value, his 'proof' rests ona fundamental flaw of logic that invalidates the whole thing.

He starts from the premise that hemoglobin is a requirement of human life, then goes on to say that the odds against hemoglobin occuring by random chance are astronomical against. But the mistake in his premise is this: there is nothing inherent about hemoglobin itself that makes it critical; it is simply part of an evolved system. It could have been any one of an infinite variety of other substances during the time when the mammalian bloodstream was evolving to require it. That renders his huge column of zeros just that - zero. All the math in the world means nothing when it rests on a flawed premise. Certainly if you removed all trace of hemoglobin from a human today and replaced it with some other organic compound, that person would die. But if you went back in time to the critical ancestor, and made the switch, there's absolutely nothing to say that human blood would not now contain 'goblinhemo', or whatever, yet still have evolved as part of a different system. Yes, there was a particular evolutionary path we have followed to become precisely what we are. Yet that doesn't mean it's the only possible evolutionary path.

I fully understand that this in no way proves that god does not exist. Things cannot be negatively proven using real logic. Yet if I'm willing to believe something exists just because it might exist, then where am I? I have no way to choose among infinite possibilities. I have no way to select between fairies, your god, his god, or the giant turtle. I can't prove any of those things don't exist, can I? Yet I can't see or touch or hear any of them. So how do I know which is better?

You're darn tooting I have a problem accepting the school of thought that "Reality is how you perceive it". This simply isn't true. Objective reality exists, true to itself, outside the frame of reference of a person observing it. This precept is based upon the works of Aristotle, who taught that reality exists. If you believe otherwise, you are following in the footsteps of Plato, who believed that reality does not exist. Plato's concepts were amplified by Immanuel Kant, a truly evil person if ever there was one. Kant once said "I have found it necessary to deny knowledge, in order to leave room for faith." The true evil is that he was proud of this.

Once you accept the idea that the world as we see it is not truth, you are lost. By accepting the unkown and the unknowable as the director of your life, you have thrown away your only tool for dealing with the universe and with your life - your mind.
 
I'm gonna make this short and simple. I just got back from lacrosse practice so i'm kinda scatter brained too.


Dang Neon, You make this really hard for my side....

Here's my problem, how can there be evolution and creation without energy? If there is no energy, than nothing can occur. Nothing can move, or even function for that matter. Steven Hawking (sp?) says stuff about subatomic particles in space that did stuff and formed the big bang and then the universe. How can the subatomic particles do anything without energy. They can't create their own because they would need energy to do that. Math and Science can't prove anything important, and IMO will never prove that important stuff like what created energy and what caused things like the big bang and so on. Science says (actually a widly accepted theory) that energy cannot be created or destroyed. If it can't be created, how did it come to be there? :confused:

Phew!, now my head really hurts... That's it for now, but tomorrow i'll be back with more stuff.

PS: Its nice to see someone that doesn't think that Civics are the coolest. At high school people think that their so unique because they customized their Civic. :banghead:
 
Definition of Religion:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usu. involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code for the conduct of human affairs. 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion. 3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions. 4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion. 5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. 6. something a person believes in and follows devotedly. 7. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion.

Neon, try to prove love. Can you do it? How so? Or could it just be blind devotion?
Also, when you say science promotes confidence, can you not say that people are confident in their religion? And also, has it not been religion over and over, time and time again, which has saved countless numbers of people?

Pako, good work, man. 'Nuff said.
 
OK. The definition tells us what? I'm just asking. It pretty much agrees with what I've been saying. And with what Pako's been saying.

What do you mean, 'prove' love? It is easily observed in human behaviour. Couples form of their own free will when two people find themselves attracted to each other physically, emotionally, and intellectually. Some animals, such as Canada geese, also mate for life. It's obviously hard to determine if that counts as love or not but it sure seems to be.

I did not say that science promotes confidence. I said that science only requires confidence, not faith.

And then you make this statement: "And also, has it not been religion over and over, time and time again, which has saved countless numbers of people?"

What exactly do you mean? 'Saved', literally, as in kept from harm, or 'saved' as in 'saved my soul from flaming perdition"?

Because if you mean it literally, for every person you can point out, I can point out a war or a persecution or a crusade fought over religious principles that has killed many more people.

Wars have been fought and are still being fought over nothing more concrete than differences of opinion about whose god is better. Do you think Palestinians are willing to blow themselves up for food or money? No. They are doing it in order to wage a jihad or holy war against the Jews, because their beliefs are different.

Are Moslem extremists too much for you to relate too? Think Christians are any different? Read a book about the Middle Ages. The Crusades where nothing but Christians doing to the Moslems exactly what the Moslems are trying to do to the Jews today.

The idea of people being willing to kill each other over food or land or money is bad enough. But to do it over something that categorically cannot be settled or proven or seen is even worse.
 
Neon,

It was the Muslims who first attacked the Christians, not the other way around. Look at history books about pre-Middle Ages. After the Muslims quit fighting Europe, they closed their doors on all cultures other than their own.

And by Christians, were you speaking of the average Joe Christian, or an extremist? Because, in my opinion, an extremist who claims s/he's Muslim, Christian, or anything like that, is a hypocrite. I don't want to point fingers at any specific group, because I think that the recent events over the past year or so have been exagerated(don't get me wrong, the things were tragic, but the media also had to do with a little bit of making it moreso,) but those extremists say one thing, but go by the other, so they're not truely following their religion.

After looking your post over, Duke, it looks like you're slamming religions, and not just Creationism. If you think I am slamming science, tell me, I'll listen to your points for accusing me, but let's try to get back onto track with what the post was originally about, creationism and evolutionism...
 
OK! If evolution is proved to be how it happened, it doesn't really matter! It corresponds to the sequence of events in the Bible, and so would not disprove the existence of God; it would simply show us how He did it. And besides, there's really no need to argue about things so silly as this.
 
Rjensen: the Crusades were not about throwing the Moslems out of Europe (though they did in fact occupy parts of Spain at one point). The Crusades were about securing the Holy Land for the Christian faith.

Yes, I am slamming all religion, if you want to call it 'slamming'. Your original post was about the separation of church and state, not just about evolution vs. creationism. I feel that religion and government must be held separate for all the reasons I've stated above.

You can deny 'extremism' all you want. The fact remains that those people truly believe they are following the word of god, as well. Are you going to prove they aren't? How do you know god isn't telling them to blow up busloads of people that are not following The One True Path?

You may say they are not following the will of god, but, really they are just not following what you think is the will of god.

Which is precisely why religion has no place whatsoever in government, and should only be taught as part of the social studies curriculum in school.
 
Ok. I don't have a problem with the fact that you don't support a religion, but when you force your opinion on others, that's when it becomes a problem. I respect that you've thought out your opinion on the matter of religion, but that doesn't mean you can try to cut other peoples' religions off at the knees. I'm a Christian, you're an athiest, others are Buddhists, while still others are Hindus. I have no problem with these facts, as long as people don't start arguing over which one is right. The fact is, they're all right to the people who own them. So please, don't "slam" religion just because you don't have one.
 
Originally posted by Jpec07
Ok. I don't have a problem with the fact that you don't support a religion, but when you force your opinion on others, that's when it becomes a problem. I respect that you've thought out your opinion on the matter of religion, but that doesn't mean you can try to cut other peoples' religions off at the knees. I'm a Christian, you're an athiest, others are Buddhists, while still others are Hindus. I have no problem with these facts, as long as people don't start arguing over which one is right. The fact is, they're all right to the people who own them. So please, don't "slam" religion just because you don't have one.

Ohh, good one Jpec! *pats on back*
 

Latest Posts

Back