My thoughts on tires for GT6

[LVracerGT]

I think we can all agree that the tire model in GT is severely lacking and needs to be updated, so I was thinking about this earlier today and had this brainstorm...

Why not get tire manufacturers involved in GT6. Instead of having comfort hards, sports soft, etc. Here's what I'm talking about.

Currently there is comfort hards/meds/soft. Keep the comfort category, but involve manufacturer tires and data. So under the comfort category could be tires like the Goodyear RS-A, Bridgestone Potenza, Firestone Touring, etc. Sports would be tires like the Falken Azeni, and then your racing compounds, Michelin, Bridgestone, Pirelli, Falken.

Now, besides just having manufacturer names and levels, have each tire represent different performance values, instead of just a grip and wear multiplier. I.E. the Goodyear Eagle RS-A could offer better cornering grip than the Firestone Touring but the Firestone would have a better wear rate lasting longer. You could take it a step further by having tires perform differently under braking and acceleration, and even further by each tire behaving differently at the grip limit.

Using the same example as before with the Goodyear having better cornering grip than the Firestone, maybe the Goodyear becomes unpredictable and edgy close to the lateral grip limit and the Firestone is stable and offers a smooth transition between grip and sliding. This would also bring a completely new aspect to selecting tires for racing and even drifting.

IMHO, this would be a great improvement to the tire system in GT allowing for more thought put into tire selection, and would also allow manufacturers to want to get involved in the game with the ability to advertise inside GT6.

 

[Eks]

Yes. 👍
I've been wanting this for a while now.

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

Yeah.... A huge fault of Gran Turismo 5 is definitely the tire model.

Rather than actual tread pattern, tire thickness, etc determining how the tire preforms, they act as a "grip multiplier" and that is a little ridiculous. If PD were to add tire manufacturers (a decent variety), it would also solve the dilemma where a car like a Toyota GT86 would be matched with the same rubber as a Ferrari 458 Italia....

+1

 

[sumbrownkid]

They need to make them last longer and be susceptible to flats.

 

[LVracerGT]

They need to make them last longer and be susceptible to flats.

Not really anything to do with what I wrote but thanks for your input.

 

[ENDURANCEGUY]

No disagreement, what so ever with this. Excellent idea. Let's just hope PolyPhony sees this.
~ENDURANCEGUY

 

[davidmanoy]

Yes. And No Sports Super Soft because It doesn't exist in real life.

 

[robrabbitman]

This is a great idea in theory, but I'm not sure GT's current handling model could handle such a tyre system without having to be completely revamped. This would be amazing to have because this would mean even more customization in competitive online racing. I would love to have this feature, but as it stands, I don't see it being implemented into GT6 unless Kaz really wants to push the boundaries of what his game can do.

 

[LVracerGT]

This is a great idea in theory, but I'm not sure GT's current handling model could handle such a tyre system without having to be completely revamped. This would be amazing to have because this would mean even more customization in competitive online racing. I would love to have this feature, but as it stands, I don't see it being implemented into GT6 unless Kaz really wants to push the boundaries of what his game can do.

I agree with you that it would be difficult to implement this into what we currently have (assuming GT6 is based off GT5) however, if PC Sims like GTR2 and rFactor from back in 2006 can accomplish this I don't think that PD with its massive budget, resources, and time wouldn't be able to do something like this.

For the record, I don't think something like this will be in GT6 unless Kaz had the same idea when it started development. But I think it should definitely either A) be added into GT6 with coding updates (I.E. GT6 spec II) or be added for GT7 (whenever the 🤬 that comes out).
Obviously option A is desirable.

 

[GBRC tyrrell]

Different manufacturers with slightly different attributes? Yes please. Although the various manufacturers may take issue with what they get, and it might be difficult to get all parties to agree. Say Michelin agree, but only on condition that their tyres are the best in every respect?

While I think it's a great idea in principle - giving greater choice to players who enjoy fine-tuning their cars - in practice it could be too problematic from a corporate PR standpoint.

The main feature in GT6 I'd like to see is a better performance equalisation of the different tyre compounds. At the moment, over any given distance, softer compounds generally fare better than harder compounds, since their advantage of extra grip is greater than the harder compound's advantage of extra longevity. They should either reduce the life of soft compounds further, or increase the grip of the harder.

 

[LVracerGT]

Different manufacturers with slightly different attributes? Yes please. Although the various manufacturers may take issue with what they get, and it might be difficult to get all parties to agree. Say Michelin agree, but only on condition that their tyres are the best in every respect?

While I think it's a great idea in principle - giving greater choice to players who enjoy fine-tuning their cars - in practice it could be too problematic from a corporate PR standpoint.

The main feature in GT6 I'd like to see is a better performance equalisation of the different tyre compounds. At the moment, over any given distance, softer compounds generally fare better than harder compounds, since their advantage of extra grip is greater than the harder compound's advantage of extra longevity. They should either reduce the life of soft compounds further, or increase the grip of the harder.

I see your point, however I have to argue, look at SRS (Street Racing Syndicate) that came out for PS2 years ago. They had actual tires with different performance attributes. If a small studio like that can do it PD should have no issues. Plus the manufacturers can't really complain when all you have to do is go to tire rack... Speaking of, you could involve tire rack. Instead of having a basic garage to go to, have tire rack be a title sponsor. You could have a tire rack logo in the menu that takes you to a menu with massive tire options with attributes like I stated in the OP. Would be epic. And then series events that Tire Rack sponsors could set up GT booths. Man I just need to develop the next GT lol

 

[Jawehawk]

Would love this. Definately a great idea for the franchise.

 

[LVracerGT]

Maybe if we all close our eyes and hope REALLY hard PD will wake up and make GT what it should be. C'mon PD. Miracles can happen!

 

[GBRC tyrrell]

I'm afraid all I can foresee right now is a game in which the physics models for tyres get messed up periodically for no apparent reason. Maybe p*ssing people off is what Kaz meant by 'human drama'...

 

[LVracerGT]

I'm afraid all I can foresee right now is a game in which the physics models for tyres get messed up periodically for no apparent reason. Maybe p*ssing people off is what Kaz meant by 'human drama'...

Haha +1

 

[another_jakhole]

Maybe if we all close our eyes and hope REALLY hard PD will wake up and make GT what it should be. C'mon PD. Miracles can happen!

What's the last game they made? What if there weren't any updates? CHILLLLL

The major change in the physics will come with the next game. Kaz said only some months ago that they've now shifted most of their workforce onto GT6.

 

[ChevyFan1912]

Yes! Lets have different manufacturers!

Here's an example using Michelin tires:

Sports Soft - Pilot Sport Cup/Pilot Sport Cup 2 (80 treadwear rating/summer tire/DOT)
Sports Medium - Pilot Super Sport (300 treadwear rating/summer tire)
Sports Hard - Pilot Sport A/S Plus (500 treadwear rating/performance all season)

Comfort Soft - Primacy HP (240 treadwear rating/grand touring summer)
Comfort Medium - Pilot HX MXV4 (300 treadwear rating/all season)
Comfort Hard - Pilot Primacy MXM4 (500 treadwear rating/all season)

Snow Tires - Pilot Alpin PA2/PA3/PA4

Not an exact science, but bear with me

 

[GBRC tyrrell]

I do think certain manufacturers would be more appropriate to different levels. Eg. Racing slicks could be provided by Michelin, Dunlop, Bridgestone, Pirelli, Hoosier. Sports tyres could be Toyo, Yokohama, Falken, Dunlop, Pirelli. Comforts could be Continental, Kumho, Pirelli, Goodyear. There doesn't need to be a superabundance, I think three or four variations of each type and compound would be good, and the differences between manufacturers need only be slight.

 

[LVracerGT]

What's the last game they made? What if there weren't any updates? CHILLLLL

The major change in the physics will come with the next game. Kaz said only some months ago that they've now shifted most of their workforce onto GT6.

It was a light hearted joke, but since you posed the questions, GT5 came out over 2 years ago, and there are still missing or broken features that still have yet to be implemented/fixed with updates.

Major changes in the physics is pure speculation. Just because Kaz said they've moved most the workforce towards GT6 doesn't mean major changes, especially if GT6 is based off of GT5 work as has been speculated.

I do think certain manufacturers would be more appropriate to different levels. Eg. Racing slicks could be provided by Michelin, Dunlop, Bridgestone, Pirelli, Hoosier. Sports tyres could be Toyo, Yokohama, Falken, Dunlop, Pirelli. Comforts could be Continental, Kumho, Pirelli, Goodyear. There doesn't need to be a superabundance, I think three or four variations of each type and compound would be good, and the differences between manufacturers need only be slight.

I agree that one manufacturer doesn't need to have a tire for every level. But a good mix of tires at each level should be implemented.

 

[Articuno]

With this system we're always going to end up with a single power that's 100% better than the rest.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Such arrangement has been done before, albeit only one manufacturer ... back in the late 90's, I still have the game, a PSX title, Japan import : Advan Racing. It has the usual brand tire from Yokohama, Advan Neova, M7 Grand Prix etc, with various size, tread width and compound, from street to race tires available. It allows for tread width combination as well and tire wear during gameplay with semi auto clutch when shifting I love it. Each tire brand, model, size and compound are differentiated by numerous attributes that will make racing more involving.
It's also packed with videos from STCC, JGTC, and commercials.

I always wonder my PD did not follow the same path, as this game tire physics beats GT and GT2. More than 10 years after that ... still PD stuck with no brand tires ...

I wanted PD to cooperate with Japanese tire companies to provide tire data, US/Italian companies would also great, but might be a stretch. I love this idea so much.

 

[LVracerGT]

...with various size, tread width and compound, from street to race tires available. It allows for tread width combination as well...

This. It would be a pretty big game changer if they allowed you to change tire/rim width for more grip at the front or rear along with different tires from manufacturers.

 

[Whistle Snap]

I'm not expecting a new tyre model, if Polyphony had any interest in doing one they would have done it already instead of doing minor changes to the original PSone model.

It took them years to half fix this flaw in their tyre model:

They added more lateral grip to the road tyres in one of the GT5 updates so it didn't slide the same on tarmac at 3k revs, it's still awful as is the overall feel of the cars.


Polyphony have terrible physics programmers

 

[Griffith500]

That's the low-speed hack, and may have as much to do with the drivetrain model (in terms of its "requirement") as it does the tyres themselves. It doesn't do that (and never did) at normal speeds - there was that issue that lateral forces weren't properly being fed into the system, but that's probably also mostly due to a still-current lack of a complete rigid (multi-)body physics model, and no real fault of the tyre model - although it is clearly flawed in many ways.

I don't think that including manufacturers is really that necessary, but anything that can put more data into balancing a generic model (which is all we can really have for a game of this scope until non-empirical modeling improves significantly - which it won't if we leave it alone altogether) is a good idea.

Things like changing tread width are really only usable with a detailed physical (i.e. non-empirical) model, there's just far too much data to collect, unless you're going to blur between a few key real-world tyres, which isn't guaranteed to be any more accurate. And anyone who thinks that using real tyre data (which PD probably already do) is somehow automatically better than a simple "grip multiplier" is deluded - that's how all tyre models work, because that's fundamentally how simple friction models work - it's all "grip multipliers".

I say up with infinitely-adjustable, from-first-principles tyre models only validated by real world data, and down with this exploding-complexity, hand-tuned table-lookup with millions-of modifiers-for-specific-situations nonsense. Let's move things forward and generate these things according to the base geometry, structure and materials of the tyre in question, so that the possibilities will be endless, rather than bounded by what manufacturers think they can give us.

 

[LVracerGT]

That's the low-speed hack, and may have as much to do with the drivetrain model (in terms of its "requirement") as it does the tyres themselves. It doesn't do that (and never did) at normal speeds - there was that issue that lateral forces weren't properly being fed into the system, but that's probably also mostly due to a still-current lack of a complete rigid (multi-)body physics model, and no real fault of the tyre model - although it is clearly flawed in many ways.

I don't think that including manufacturers is really that necessary, but anything that can put more data into balancing a generic model (which is all we can really have for a game of this scope until non-empirical modeling improves significantly - which it won't if we leave it alone altogether) is a good idea.

Things like changing tread width are really only usable with a detailed physical (i.e. non-empirical) model, there's just far too much data to collect, unless you're going to blur between a few key real-world tyres, which isn't guaranteed to be any more accurate. And anyone who thinks that using real tyre data (which PD probably already do) is somehow automatically better than a simple "grip multiplier" is deluded - that's how all tyre models work, because that's fundamentally how simple friction models work - it's all "grip multipliers".

I say up with infinitely-adjustable, from-first-principles tyre models only validated by real world data, and down with this exploding-complexity, hand-tuned table-lookup with millions-of modifiers-for-specific-situations nonsense. Let's move things forward and generate these things according to the base geometry, structure and materials of the tyre in question, so that the possibilities will be endless, rather than bounded by what manufacturers think they can give us.

There was a lot of nonsense to sift through here, but here's my response.

While I agree that tire manufacturers aren't necessary as long as the tire model is advanced, it can only be good for the series. As far as tire width being far too much data to collect, I call BS.

PD is a Sony funded studio with NOTHING but time and money. If other console racers far more barbaric (in terms of technology when it was released and on what system, as Ridox stated above) there is NO excuse for PD to not have the time or resources.

Anyone who thinks using a simple grip multiplier is better than using real world ture data is 🤬 stupid and needs to go play NFS. There is far more to tires and how they perform than simple grip multipliers. Go play iRacing and tell me a top of the line world class tire model with manufacturer real world tire data doesn't make a difference.

GT needs a better tire model. Period. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't care about the advancement of this series. And given the leaked specs of the new consoles coming out (being on par with high end PCs) there is no reason GT shouldn't feature a true to life tire model with tread width and tire pressures being taken into account (and hopefully adjustable) because just these two values alone can make the tires 10 times more realistic than what we currently have. Tire manufacturers with options would be an added bonus.

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

.... Yep, grip multipliers are the new thing.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Polyphony have terrible physics programmers

It's funny because I'm pretty sure I remember reading that Kaz Yamauchi's main GT5 success in his mind was upgrading the physics system for use in future games. Well...

 

[Connoissuer]

Lets get some drag racing tire manufactures in the mix too guys. Like Hoosier (I know someone posted it before) Mickey Thompson's, Goodyears, etc.

 

[LVracerGT]

Lets get some drag racing tire manufactures in the mix too guys. Like Hoosier (I know someone posted it before) Mickey Thompson's, Goodyears, etc.

Could be cool, I know the people who make a lot of drag tunes would appreciate that.

 

[another_jakhole]

It's funny because I'm pretty sure I remember reading that Kaz Yamauchi's main GT5 success in his mind was upgrading the physics system for use in future games. Well...

So there wasn't a noticeable change from GT4 through to GT5 and GT5 2.10? ahh Some of you guys need to stop being so asinine. It's not even that many people that act like you, but it's Everywhere!


Just read what you want. It's not to "prove" anything though. Oh, don't forget. They've been sculpting GT for 20 years now. The Physics team (as individuals) works the most out of any other and I don't need to quote that.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-game-boys-the-physics-engine-page-6

Actually, let me treat you like I was treated when I first joined. What's your source?


LVracer, MOTORTREND

Griffiith500 isn't someone like ShiftingGears over here; he actually knows his 🤬. EDIT - I don't say that as an insult or anything like that.