NATIONALISM: The Hocus-pocus of Modern Tribal Territorialism.

[photonrider]

Too many good posts in here to pick out any one for comment - but Ardius, XoravaX, a6m5 - the lines you've penned are much food for thought. There is so much history behind the evolution of our 'nationalisms', that we often forget how this world came to be shaped in the way it is.
International Sporting Events brings this to bear forcefully. Andy Murray, for instance, is first a Scot, then a Britisher. But today he fights to put Britain back on the map at Wimbledon.

 

[photonrider]

While the Olympics brings cultural history and expanded geographical knowledge to all participants - whether athletes, staff or spectators, one of the strongest characteristics of the games to colour everyone's perception is . . . yes . . Nationalism.
Get the flag wrong - and there'll be an uproar. Play the wrong anthem and there'll be a war. Is this acceptable?
Well, obviously, a lot of this has to do with respect. Ignorance of other countries, their flags, anthems, whereabouts, culture, mannerisms, language pitfalls, etc, bespeaks indifference - and that is a form of disrespect.
This means of course that we all have to be encylopedias - which quite often is garbage in, garbage out.
I think the Olympics was the 'internet' of the past - a time and place in space that people from all over the world made, to meet and compete in harmless competition, having put aside war for a moment to actually celebrate their differences.
Together with the technology of today, the true spirit of the Games, is intensified.
I can't be happier that London hosts 2012.

 

[PAPPACLART]

I am English if that means anything and a British citizen. I am proud of the many things that the people of the small Island we call GB have achieved as well as not so proud of some of the other things we have got upto also.

Also the same would apply to the people of this planet for both good and bad.

I actually live in Italy now which says allot about how I feel about the Country/Island I am from.

It is human nature to attach/identify ourselves to some kind of group, whether that group be national/ intellectual / sport / social group etc, this is also aided by our conditioning by the state and media.

I have come to realism that nationalism/patriotism and all of the rest are just meaningless in today's world as we all work for the financial system and that is all that matters. Your social group/national identity and whether you willingly participate or not in either, or are proud and patriotic, or the discussion and debate of such things is just mute considering the grand scheme of things.

 

[homeforsummer]

Get the flag wrong - and there'll be an uproar.

To be fair, flying the flag of a major political rival instead of your own is completely unacceptable of the organisers. It's incredibly offensive to the country involved, whether or not you agree with the way that country operates.

Remember the incident where the fake Kazakhstani national anthem from Borat was played at a games instead of the actual national anthem? Hilarious... unless you're Kazakhstani and representing your country.

That's not nationalism colouring people's perceptions, that's common sense in paying other countries the respect you'd hope your own country would receive.

I can't be happier that London hosts 2012.

I couldn't care less. I certainly can't see how it adds to my life, and I've no inherent pride in a major sporting event being held in my country.

 

[BJBEOSmitty]

The North Korean Women footballers were correct in walking off the pitch when the South Korean flag was displayed. They were also correct in accepting the organizers apologies and resuming the match in my opinion, although I would understand if someone felt that was incorrect. The relations between the two nations made the error beyond inexcusable.


But...

I for one ADORE nationalism at sporting events. I tell many sports fans I meet that they have never truly sung the National Anthem until they have done so at an international event, with USA v Mexico soccer matches being the overwhelmingly most Nationalistic moments of my life.

Attending more than 20 times - the Indianapolis 500 Mile Race - hearing "Taps" (a traditional, short simple song played on a trumpet symbolizing respect for fallen soldiers) followed by one or more flyovers from United States Air Force Pilots and their magnificent planes causing the ground to thunder as they roar by... Incredible every time. Do I think about being an American in these two situations? Damn right I do.

The United States gets a LOT of things wrong... a LOT. But the things we get right we do so on par with any nation on earth - perhaps better than all others in some areas. I for one thoroughly enjoy celebrating that love of country while at major sporting events with song, passion, and spectacle.

 

[photonrider]

http://www.voanews.com/content/japa...hallenges-nationalist-grievances/1493779.html

I'm not sure how many Japanese members we have on here, or Chinese either. I guess they may know better about this situation. Hopefully they settle it peacefully. Planting each other's flags on that rock is not the way to begin negotiations, though. Once again Nationalism rears its head over territory. Can't we settle this over a game of chess like the ancient kings did once? Or even better, a game of Table Tennis? isn't that what the Olympics is really about?
Flippancy aside, this is a situation that should not escalate. But, as I said, probably only the Chinese and Japanese know the history behind this little 'war' that is buried beneath a lot of other earth-shaking news.

 

[Keef]

Nationalism? You want nationalism?

"Even though they don't want to admit it, they depend on the United States of America to lead and to bring moral purpose to the globe."



@ 9:30

**** yeah.

 

[sumbrownkid]

http://www.voanews.com/content/japa...hallenges-nationalist-grievances/1493779.html

I'm not sure how many Japanese members we have on here, or Chinese either. I guess they may know better about this situation. Hopefully they settle it peacefully. Planting each other's flags on that rock is not the way to begin negotiations, though. Once again Nationalism rears its head over territory. Can't we settle this over a game of chess like the ancient kings did once? Or even better, a game of Table Tennis? isn't that what the Olympics is really about?
Flippancy aside, this is a situation that should not escalate. But, as I said, probably only the Chinese and Japanese know the history behind this little 'war' that is buried beneath a lot of other earth-shaking news.

'Murica should take it for the poops and giggles. Where's your nationalism now, China and Japan?

 

[XoravaX]

Nationalism? You want nationalism?

That's a brilliant example how nationalism can be aroused among the crowd. While the words itself might be empty, they make the people feel they belong together. As long as the leaders don't start abusing it and keep it under control, there is no harm in that. But doing that to gain votes is populist and often done to deceive the people of the real goals behind.

 

[photonrider]

'Murica should take it for the poops and giggles. Where's your nationalism now, China and Japan?

The problem is America getting involved in a dispute that is historically more ancient than Amerigo Vespucci setting foot on the Continent - and now they are bound after the terms of the post war to be Japan's ally. In fact, Leon Panetta took a trip to China recently to weigh in on the issue.

Meanwhile, China is sending in the drones. Robotic soldiers first. I think they are still building them though.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/09/24/china-japan-drones.html

 

[photonrider]

You become an American citizen when the national government hands you your Social security number, a US passport, along with voting rights. Anyone that told me I wasn't an American can go eat my passport, voting history and social security.

I have brought this quote back from the discussion on the Boston Marathon Bombings, sumbrownkid, since I do not wish to derail that thread with a discussion on how 'nationalism' comes into play in situations involving these types of violence.

This effects people from the countries they emigrated from - emigrants who are now American immigrants, nay even 'citizens', who, because they are connected (in the past (?) ) with a 'countryman' that committed such violence, are also now thrown into the same metaphor box spun around the country by dissemination.

Would I group you, for instance, in the same box as a 'Muslim radical' as I would fundamentalists who try to get their message across with behind-the-back, back-stabbing, urban-facility using, destruction of innocent lives and hard-won property?

No. Just from the few words traded across the years here, I would not hesitate to say that, no, I'm not a better man than you. Nor, are you, me. I'm just as equal in my love, and my respect from 'Thence we came from - and Whither we go' to my fellow man and the property, whether natural or man-made, around me.

Nationalities come into play only with internationally set boundaries whether it be sport . . . or war. International terrorism of course is an act of war against a particular Nation by another.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Much respect from here to you also Photon.

My brother is getting all antsy about the media having an orgy of speculation now that it is known that the bombers are from Kazakhstan. Though the uncle did say his responses perfectly.👍

I just hope those two men that got booted of the plane sue the airline.

Edit: Chechen not Kazakh. Thank you media for giving me reliable info.

 

[photonrider]

I would think if you ever need to fight for your freedom, your rights, and your ideals - you are in the best possible country to do it.

I, myself, being surrounded by multiculturalism, and finding that no two people are alike- even brothers - it is hard to lump all people together in the same box because one loves Frost, and the other Tagore, or one believes in an Original Will and the other doesn't have any beliefs at all.

There is space enough in the Universe for all of us. But first we need to understand our neighbor - whether next door, or across the borders we create - before blanketing them in pre-prejudiced perception. It is this way -seeing ourselves as real people first - and then as 'nationals' that we will grow this world in a way that benefits all. Not just one nation.

 

[dautolover]

I'm surprised how this very old thread was resurrected after having been ignored for a long time now, especially since the main topic right now is the Boston bombings.

Do you guys feel that these type of incidents (like the Boston bombings) rile up people in a way that shows that nationalism is still prevalent in the US? Is that good or bad? (edit: and by "good or bad" I mean, is it good to invoke a feeling of nationalism when incidents like these happen)

 

[MrSulu]

I've always been highly amused by our American (United States) friends being insistant it is the greatest country in the world, then 2 minutes later claim to be from somewhere else! Irish, Italian, and so on!

No offence, I like your country too, but that has always tickled me and is merely an observation

USA! USA! USA! (until its cool not to be)

 

[Liquid]

I've always been highly amused by our American (United States) friends being insistant it is the greatest country in the world, then 2 minutes later claim to be from somewhere else! Irish, Italian, and so on!

In that respect, every president is quick to point out their Oirish heritage, but seldom go for the German vote, despite it [German-American] being the most common reported ancestry.

 

[Northstar]

I've always been highly amused by our American (United States) friends being insistent it is the greatest country in the world, then 2 minutes later claim to be from somewhere else! Irish, Italian, and so on!

No offence, I like your country too, but that has always tickled me and is merely an observation

USA! USA! USA! (until its cool not to be)

Guessing it has more to do with this being a country of varying ethnic backgrounds and the prefix before "American" being a way to separate yourself from everyone else while also paying homage to their heritage at the same time.

 

[Motorcycle54]

Do you guys feel that these type of incidents (like the Boston bombings) rile up people in a way that shows that nationalism is still prevalent in the US?

Many Arabic countries are not vulnerable to nationalism at all; religion has taken that place. The politics within those contries can be in a shambles for decades, but their religion is the common ..the common driftwood they cling to in a sea of a changing, modern maturing world.

The US is more cohesive as a political body than a religious one, and when any body is pricked, it needs to react. Part of reacting to a prick (!) is publicly recalling a basic (ideal of) unity; 'we stand with you Boston!', 'Boston Strong', etc. etc. We are proud that we have a 'we' to unite around, even if the members are from all over the damn planet.

The idea of the citizen-soldier, and the reason they have always made the best fighting forces, is the latent power thats there during peaceful times. The peaceful time when no nationalism is needed, no banners waved, no slogans yelled by a mob ..just, you know, ball games, work, cars, electronics. All of it, including 26 mile marathons.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I don't know about Arabs not being vulnerable to nationalism, as FIFA world cup qualifying can tell you.

When it comes to soccer, the mideast is very nationalistic.

To the point that Islam is forgotten for 90+ minutes once the ref starts the game.

 

[Motorcycle54]

I was looking up the facts about a movie I have where a plane crashes ('Fearless') and I wound up on a website reading cockpit transcripts from airline crashes. There was one of an Arab crew, and a regular part of their conversations in the cockpit began with, "if gods wills it".

This one is more of a stretch but: Joni Mitchell has a song where she says, 'laughing and crying is the same release' ..I wonder how much nationalism and religion is the same kind of semi-delusional release.
Maybe before a North Korean army officer launches a test missle he says, 'on behalf of our great and fearless leader, who has no equal amoung other men, I press this button!'

 

[sumbrownkid]

Here's the thing about God will's it. It is a very abused term in the mideast. It is used as mundane excuses to explain why something went wrong or why something didn't get something done on time. My dad working for Bin Laden Construction in Saudi can testify to that. For instance, my dad tells management that they need x amount of material by this date. They say god wills it, it will be done.

The project is delayed for a couple days because the manager didn't bother to contact the supplier until the day it was needed. God wills procrastination?

Like my mom said, once they say it, don't expect it to be done properly or on time.

 

[Liquid]

This one is more of a stretch but: Joni Mitchell has a song where she says, 'laughing and crying is the same release' ..I wonder how much nationalism and religion is the same kind of semi-delusional release.

Nationalism =/= Religion

See: Enver Hoxha and state-enforced atheism in communist Albania.

Even as a 'normal' Western country, the United Kingdom isn't that dominated by religion in de facto political processes these days. It's mainly ceremonial arse kissing and showboating with no real influence.

 

[MisterWhiskers]

I am from a country which used to be Yugoslavia. My passport said Yugoslavia, but I still considered myself Albanian according to my parents and extended family. Now it is American, because I live in Connecticut, USA. I also talk Albanian, English, Serbian, Italian, German, and Spanish. My small country, Kosovo, used to be the Dardanian Kingdom which derived from Illyria or Albania, Ottoman Empire, Serbian Kingdom, Albanian Kingdom under Italian then German rule (WWII), Yugoslavia, and now it's own republic. It is every Albanian's dream, including mine, to join Kosovo, Albania, West Macedonia, Chameria, Greece, Presevo Valley, Serbia, and South Montenegro into one country, Great Albania, or Shqiperia Etnike in Albanian. I prefer the red and black instead of the dull blue, white, and yellow on Kosovo's flag. Many, many, many Albanians agree with me. I will die for all Albanians if it comes down to saving my race from destruction.

 

[Liquid]

I'm not supremely well versed in my Balkan geography, but I didn't think Greece and Macedonia would be willing to merge and join others in forming a larger country. But you did point out, that is every Albanian's dream.

On the subject of nationalism, the United Kingdom may not be so united if Scotland advocates seceding. It's their choice, but I'm personally in favour of the union but with greater autonomy and/or devolution.

 

[MisterWhiskers]

I'm not supremely well versed in my Balkan geography, but I didn't think Greece and Macedonia would be willing to merge and join others in forming a larger country. But you did point out, that is every Albanian's dream.

On the subject of nationalism, the United Kingdom may not be so united if Scotland advocates seceding. It's their choice, but I'm personally in favour of the union but with greater autonomy and/or devolution.

I honestly think that only Kosovo and Albania are the only possible countries that could join.

 

[Motorcycle54]

See: Enver Hoxha and state-enforced atheism in communist Albania.

This is what I saw: "The clergy were publicly vilified and humiliated, their vestments taken and desecrated. More than 200 clerics of various faiths were imprisoned, and some were executed or starved to death."

You didnt understand me if you thought I asked if nationalism and religion were equal. Thats not what I meant at all. I was speculating if extreme-type nationalism and extreme-type religosity came from the same distorted or delusional need (for example the quote above is from communist Albania, but certain religions have persecuted non-believers in more or less the same way, in historical terms.)

 

[photonrider]

American?

But, of course, she is.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/1st-america-indian-descent-slammed-arab-article-1.1457133

Though maybe not as American as some, ignorant, express themselves to be.

 

[Danoff]

Frustrating to see the comments on that. America (the nation) has always been a nation of a variety of cultures and backgrounds. The people who comment about how someone of Indian descent can't be American are, ironically, expressing a view that isn't consistent with the founding of this nation.

As for nationalism, I don't think it makes much sense beyond supporting a state when the state is on the side of morality. A nation founded on the protection of individual rights and freedom is moral (to that extent) and its citizens (and others) should be supportive of that.

 

[Johnnypenso]

In a nation of 300+million people with wide open internet access to publish any kind of comment anonymously and without accountability, you can expect this kind of stuff from a tiny minority. Perhaps if we just ignored them and they got no attention in the national media they would just fade away.

 

[FoolKiller]

My favorite comment has to be the one that starts with, "An Asian and an Indian?" Yeah, weird how that always happens.

The irony in all those comments is that those people are using one of the principles of America to attack another one.


And that brings me to a question regarding this topic. Can you be a lover of your country's ideals, have nationalism for the nation that can be, but not for your country as it is?

For me, I read the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence and the writings of our founders and I see the image they had for this country. I see their ideals of what it could be. But I see how quickly things fell apart, beginning with slavery and right into debating how the fiduciary system should work. Over time it struggled to get closer and fell away at the same time. Slavery ended and civil rights have been slowly reaching an equal point, but not without many bumps along the way. At the same time, this used to be a country where a successful man could get rich, but the poor and struggling could always hope to work hard and work their way to success. Somewhere along the lines things went to a point where the rich could buy their success and the poor have lost any hope of trying. The natural forces of economics have allowed for some who never stop trying to make it, but the political structure of the system does not favor them.

I want to have a since of patriotism and nationalism for the republic that was to be, not whatever we have become. When my daughter is taught the pledge I want her to be able to pledge allegiance to the republic, as it says. To me, the very wording of our own pledge makes it a pledge to something that doesn't exist.

Can you be a patriot for an ideal and still disagree with your country when it gets away from that ideal? I still believe that the best hope for that is this country, but some days I feel like I have to fight my own country in order for it to happen.