Neglect for Multicultural and International Diversity

[CMvan46]

Young people should work hard - not goof off. Old people goof off. While you're young, you get your career underway, get your finances under control, get yourself situated and stable.

Goof off when you've earned it.

Maybe I should introduce you to some research on this. Those that plow straight through without enjoying themselves are much more likely to experience burn out over those that do not and this may occur during school or shortly after.

That's a ludicrous statement that travelling is "goofing off", in fact it is anything but. Young people do work hard, much more than most people could ever imagine. The pressures on youth and young adults today are immensely tougher to deal with than even 20 years ago, this is fact.

As a microcosm of the lifelong burnout take your job as an example. Imagine working an 8 hour tough shift without a break. Then when finally getting to that 8 hours by working hard all that time your told you have another 4 to go...again no break. You better not try and tell me your giving as much as you were in hour 12 as you were in hour 1. This is exactly what happens when students feel the stresses of our rediculous school systems we have in place today. If travelling makes a student happy and they are able to truely enjoy life at it's very basic level then no there is nothing wrong with taking a year or a semester off to do whatever it is that makes somebody enjoy life for what it is.

 

[ScouserInExile]

Young people should work hard - not goof off. Old people goof off. While you're young, you get your career underway, get your finances under control, get yourself situated and stable.

Goof off when you've earned it.

Rubbish. Absolute tripe.

For a start, your job should not be the be all and end all of your life - a phrase I live by is that I work to live, I don't live to work.

Life is for living and the best time to enjoy living it is when you're young. No-one is going to look back on their lives and think "I wish I'd worked for an extra year, I really regret not earning that extra couple of grand now", but plenty will look back and think "I wish I'd seen the Eiffel Tower / Grand Canyon / Machu Picchu / the Taj Mahal" and when you're young is the perfect time to go and do this - no commitments, no mortgage, no family, no job to worry about if it's going to be there when you come back means you can do what you want with very little risk.

This is especially true for those of you in the US where, from what I've been told, you get very little in the way of holiday / vacation pay - someone I spoke to last time I was over there said 10 days a year is average (I get 29 days paid leave, plus 8 public holidays and I got 10 days paternity leave this year) - so this must seriously limit what you can do in the way of travelling once you are working.

Thing is: I'm 34, I have a wife, a young daughter and about a quater of a million pound's worth of debt (including mortgage, obviously) and I'm already thinking "I wish I'd seen more of the world before I did all of this". I've seen plenty already and I'm sure I'll see more over the next 30-odd years I'll be working, but only small bits at a time. I'd love to be able to take a year off and do a serious amount of travelling, but commitments mean it just isn't happening anytime soon.

 

[Blitz187]

I see some capitalists in here... Money money money... IMO you don't really learn to appreciate life and what you have unless you travel to other countries and enrich yourself with other cultures. Once you see how other people live in other countries (Poor and rich) you will realize how lucky you are to live in a western developed country. All of a sudden money and materialistic things become less important in life. Now, of course a roof over your head and food on the table is important and a necessity for survival... But suggesting that travelling is "unimportant" and young people should focus only on career and not goof-off is a bit harsh. Of course if a good job and money is important to you then to each his own.

My question to those who are only worried about career... Have you travelled and if you have where did you go?

 

[Prosthetic]

Young people should work hard - not goof off. Old people goof off. While you're young, you get your career underway, get your finances under control, get yourself situated and stable.

Goof off when you've earned it.

Why wait until you are physically limited?

 

[ScouserInExile]

Why wait until you are physically limited?

Exactly.

And what happens if you wait until you are older to come into contact with other cultures, only to find that something from another country is what was missing from your life for the last 30 years?

And why should you have to "earn" doing stuff you like?

 

[Danoff]

The part highlighted is right. One year lost, or behind, nothing more.

Another example, a lily doubles in size each week and it takes 30 weeks to cover a pond. Two lilies would take how long? 29 weeks, of course.

Nope, you also lose interest.

Maybe I should introduce you to some research on this. Those that plow straight through without enjoying themselves are much more likely to experience burn out over those that do not and this may occur during school or shortly after.

That's a ludicrous statement that travelling is "goofing off", in fact it is anything but. Young people do work hard, much more than most people could ever imagine. The pressures on youth and young adults today are immensely tougher to deal with than even 20 years ago, this is fact.

As a microcosm of the lifelong burnout take your job as an example. Imagine working an 8 hour tough shift without a break. Then when finally getting to that 8 hours by working hard all that time your told you have another 4 to go...again no break. You better not try and tell me your giving as much as you were in hour 12 as you were in hour 1. This is exactly what happens when students feel the stresses of our rediculous school systems we have in place today. If travelling makes a student happy and they are able to truely enjoy life at it's very basic level then no there is nothing wrong with taking a year or a semester off to do whatever it is that makes somebody enjoy life for what it is.

Rubbish. Absolute tripe.

For a start, your job should not be the be all and end all of your life - a phrase I live by is that I work to live, I don't live to work.

Life is for living and the best time to enjoy living it is when you're young. No-one is going to look back on their lives and think "I wish I'd worked for an extra year, I really regret not earning that extra couple of grand now", but plenty will look back and think "I wish I'd seen the Eiffel Tower / Grand Canyon / Machu Picchu / the Taj Mahal" and when you're young is the perfect time to go and do this - no commitments, no mortgage, no family, no job to worry about if it's going to be there when you come back means you can do what you want with very little risk.

This is especially true for those of you in the US where, from what I've been told, you get very little in the way of holiday / vacation pay - someone I spoke to last time I was over there said 10 days a year is average (I get 29 days paid leave, plus 8 public holidays and I got 10 days paternity leave this year) - so this must seriously limit what you can do in the way of travelling once you are working.

Thing is: I'm 34, I have a wife, a young daughter and about a quater of a million pound's worth of debt (including mortgage, obviously) and I'm already thinking "I wish I'd seen more of the world before I did all of this". I've seen plenty already and I'm sure I'll see more over the next 30-odd years I'll be working, but only small bits at a time. I'd love to be able to take a year off and do a serious amount of travelling, but commitments mean it just isn't happening anytime soon.

I see some capitalists in here... Money money money... IMO you don't really learn to appreciate life and what you have unless you travel to other countries and enrich yourself with other cultures. Once you see how other people live in other countries (Poor and rich) you will realize how lucky you are to live in a western developed country. All of a sudden money and materialistic things become less important in life. Now, of course a roof over your head and food on the table is important and a necessity for survival... But suggesting that travelling is "unimportant" and young people should focus only on career and not goof-off is a bit harsh. Of course if a good job and money is important to you then to each his own.

My question to those who are only worried about career... Have you travelled and if you have where did you go?

Why wait until you are physically limited?

Exactly.

And what happens if you wait until you are older to come into contact with other cultures, only to find that something from another country is what was missing from your life for the last 30 years?

And why should you have to "earn" doing stuff you like?

I can tell none of you are anywhere near retirement.

You guys should really take a step back and listen to yourselves. "Travel the world, take a year off, just walk around not doing anything and goofing off. You can pay for it later"

Taking a year of vacation is an amazing luxury that has massive costs. It's very easy for people to advocate that you enjoy the luxury and postpone the costs. It's also easy for people to wish that they enjoyed those luxuries when they imagine that the cost is zero. It is not. Taking a year of vacation early in your career has a financial impact that ripples through your entire life. The further you look through your life the larger the financial impact.

If your retirement date stays the same, you're most likely losing something on the order of half a million dollars at the point of retirement. Half a million dollars earning 3% in retirement means a reduction in your retirement income of $15k per year.

You can survive on 15k per year in retirement.

I'm assuming you retire at 60, so presuming you live until 90, that's another 30 years of 15k each year lost for a grand total of almost a million dollars. By the time you die, that trip will have cost you a million dollars negatively impacting almost every month of your life.

It's so easy for all of you to sit and pretend that it costs nothing. And I agree with you, if it cost nothing, go ahead and take a year off. Hell take 5! None of you are looking at this realistically. I'll point out that one of the easiest things in the world to do is spend someone else's money. So when someone asks if they should spend money on something to an online forum, it's not exactly surprising that most people would say SPEND!

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

It's so easy for all of you to sit and pretend that it costs nothing. And I agree with you, if it cost nothing, go ahead and take a year off. Hell take 5! None of you are looking at this realistically. I'll point out that one of the easiest things in the world to do is spend someone else's money. So when someone asks if they should spend money on something to an online forum, it's not exactly surprising that most people would say SPEND!

Good lord, Danoff, what's with all the hostility bubbling barely beneath the surface? The guy asks for advice on an online forum, people who have had varying life experiences chime in.

I simply think that as you go further and further through your 20s, you begin to accumulate the trappings of an "adult life" such as big commitments, big job, house, car, significant assets, spouse, a couple of kids, a nice big Labrador, etc. All these things are great and part of having a fulfilling life but it is also nice to get out into the world and explore a bit before you have all these things to manage.

Even taking a summer to go work overseas somewhere or arranging a semester or two abroad is a nice compromise. The opportunities to explore and travel when you are young are almost limitless.

To jump on this as naive or interfering with his future retirement strategy is really a sad, joyless view to take on life and being young.

Another important thing to remember is that young people do work hard, and being young and trying to find yourself a concrete direction in your career and life is a great struggle for many. Travel, even a small amount of it, exposes you to new viewpoints and new experiences that can help shape you as a person or at least be a small inspiration.

A couple of my friends are trained chefs who have travelled and backpacked around Europe while working in stages for next-to-nothing pay. Other friends of mine plowed right through university and are now crunching spreadsheets. Guess who I prefer to hang out with and who I think are much more well-rounded, interesting, and seemingly much happier of those two groups?

 

[CMvan46]

Danoff you tel us to listen but you don't actually do it yourself. There is PROVEN research that taking more time to enjoy yourself through life helps you become more productive and perform better in all aspects of your life.

If that year off or 1 semester off for travelling keeps a person motivated through university and the start of there career then it is a good thing. Statistically it happens a lot more often than not. A motivated person will have a higher GPA and therefore better job opportunities when they leave university. That will equal higher starting salary and therefore over time that one year of lost salary is a moot point. That motivating also carries over to your relationships whether it be with a girl/guy who potentially could be your wife (or husband), your friends who you may have for life, or family who you will have for life.

I did an entire term paper last year on burn out and believe it or not I do know what I'm talking about. You can either choose to listen or be stuck back in your old ways of thinking but I can tell you your wrong. Travelling is not goofing off and I feel sorry for you that you obviously never did.

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

As a side note, "goofing off" or doing extensive travelling when I am 65 is not really that appealing.

I hope to be doing something productive like freelancing when I "retire" from the business world. Sitting around in Barbados playing shuffleboard for months on end sounds pretty boring.

 

[Danoff]

Even taking a summer to go work overseas somewhere or arranging a semester or two abroad is a nice compromise. The opportunities to explore and travel when you are young are almost limitless.

Taking a summer and taking a year are vastly different things. I agree with you that it's an excellent compromise.

To jump on this as naive or interfering with his future retirement strategy is really a sad, joyless view to take on life and being young.

...but true regardless. Just pointing out the facts.

Danoff you tel us to listen but you don't actually do it yourself. There is PROVEN research that taking more time to enjoy yourself through life helps you become more productive and perform better in all aspects of your life.

I'd argue that taking a year has nothing to do with burnout and is more likely to lead to a permanent interruption in your work ethic. Stay-at-home moms deal with this a lot. Taking a year off to watch a kid often results in "I can't imagine working 40 hour weeks again", and never going back to work.

I'm sure there is PROVEN research that taking vacation is helpful to work ethic. But taking a year is a much more serious derailment.

If that year off or 1 semester off for travelling keeps a person motivated through university and the start of there career then it is a good thing.

Agreed.

Travelling is not goofing off and I feel sorry for you that you obviously never did.

I do plenty of traveling these days. I get paid while I'm gone too.

 

[Dapper]

Nope, you also lose interest.

Danoff, your thinking is completely wrong. You are saying numbers that are literally coming out of nowhere.

If Dick starts working at 20 and Joe starts at 21, they both make the same amount of money every year, Dick retires at 65, Joe retires at 66, their amount of money made throughout their careers would be the same. Or if Joe retires at 65 he would be 1 year behind, not hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Count lily pads, they don't lie.

 

[CMvan46]

Danoff, your thinking is completely wrong. You are saying numbers that are literally coming out of nowhere.

If Dick starts working at 20 and Joe starts at 21, they both make the same amount of money every year, Dick retires at 65, Joe retires at 66, their amount of money made throughout their careers would the same.

And if Dick starts at 40k per year and Joe starts at 45k because he travelled and did better in school Joe makes more money....

Danoff your not listening again. I love how open minded some people are when a young person proves an idea they have wrong. Travelling does not take away motivation for schooling but rather helps to provide inspiration and motivation to know what a person wants in life and from life which will carry a person through school.

 

[Danoff]

Danoff, your thinking is completely wrong. You are saying numbers that are literally coming out of nowhere.

If Dick starts working at 20 and Joe starts at 21, they both make the same amount of money every year, Dick retires at 65, Joe retires at 66, their amount of money made throughout their careers would be the same. Or if Joe retires at 65 he would be 1 year behind, not hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Count lily pads, they don't lie.

You're ignoring interest (still).

And if Dick starts at 40k per year and Joe starts at 45k because he travelled and did better in school Joe makes more money....

Danoff your not listening again. I love how open minded some people are when a young person proves an idea they have wrong. Travelling does not take away motivation for schooling but rather helps to provide inspiration and motivation to know what a person wants in life and from life which will carry a person through school.

I'm listening. I actually agree with your point - I even told you as much. I just don't think taking a year off has anything to do with your point. Maybe a few months, but a year is something else.

 

[Dapper]

You're ignoring interest (still).

I said 1 year's worth of interest. The interest made in the first year for Dick is matched by Joe in his first year... but just a year later.

I'll just slightly edit your example-

year 1-40 vs 0
year 2-42+interest vs 40
year 3-44.1+interest vs 42+interest
year 4-46.3+interest vs 44.1+interest
year 5-48.6+interest vs 46.3+interest
year 6-51.1+interest vs 48.6+interest
year 7-53.6+interest vs 51.1+interest
year 8-56.3+interest vs 53.6+interest
year 9-59.1+interest vs 56.3+interest

You see now that one guy is just a year behind, that is all.

 

[Danoff]

Just looking at it mathematically (and simplifying a bit), one guy has 40k more in the bank the entire time. So over that 10 years, he gets interest on that 40k that the other guy doesn't get. That's the interest component. He is also the current year's pay ahead, regardless of what the current year is. After 10 years of interest, the interest can easily be as valuable as the final year's pay.

That's the only way to do an apples to apples comparison. I don't want to estimate how much more one spends traveling the world for a year.


Here are numbers (assuming 100% savings, 5% raise, 5% interest).

Yearly Income + Interest
40
44
48.3
52.92
57.88125
63.206325
68.91920438
75.04535588
81.61182451
88.64732663

Since we've accounted for interest, the only thing you lose by starting a year late is the final year ($88k). Now, this assumes you save everything and earn interest on it. Some will say that's not fair, but there is utility to having money earlier. It's not my concern what you do with it. Spend it, save it, regardless - this is what it's worth.

I'd estimate that after 10 years (starting at 40k) you'd lose about $80k on that trip (not including the cost of the trip).

 

[Prosthetic]

Life isn't about making as much money as possible. Its about enjoying yourself. No second chances, do all that you can. If you want to travel when young, then travel!

 

[Danoff]

Life isn't about making as much money as possible. Its about enjoying yourself. No second chances, do all that you can. If you want to travel when young, then travel!

It's good to keep your eyes open to the consequences of these choices. Make an informed decision with full realization of the cost.

 

[Prosthetic]

It's good to keep your eyes open to the consequences of these choices. Make an informed decision with full realization of the cost.

Of course, but taking time off early isn't end of the world.

 

[Dennisch]

Seriously!

Multiculture! BABES!!!

 

[Danoff]

Of course, but taking time off early isn't end of the world.

Never said it was. Here's my message, in case it got garbled.

- Earnings early in life map forward to large consequences later in life.
- You won't have as much energy to work later in life as you do earlier in life.
- Understand the consequences of your actions.

That's it. Not really anything all that controversial.

 

[Crazed_Coupe]

I think some people, including me at times fail to realize how massive this world is and how many different types of race and culture there are/were. I think that traveling is the best way to really get a feel for the world in general. I believe that seeing things in person brings a whole new aspect to someones belief while seeing pictures or hearing about doesn't do much good to most.

 

[Dapper]

Just looking at it mathematically (and simplifying a bit), one guy has 40k more in the bank the entire time. So over that 10 years, he gets interest on that 40k that the other guy doesn't get.

He'll get 10 years of interest when the other guy gets 9 years of interest.

You are saying people making the same amount of money will make different amounts of money.

 

[Danoff]

He'll get 10 years of interest when the other guy gets 9 years of interest.

You are saying people making the same amount of money will make different amounts of money.

One guy is always 40k up. Every year he gets interest on that 40k difference.

 

[Dapper]

One guy is always 40k up. Every year he gets interest on that 40k difference.

So will the other guy... just a year later!
The interest he got in 2010, the other guy gets in 2011. No extra money just appears as you think.

 

[Danoff]

So will the other guy... just a year later!
The interest he got in 2010, the other guy gets in 2011. No extra money just appears as you think.

I ran the numbers for you above for a 10 year timeframe (twice, once as a ballpark, the other is the actual calculation).

Since we've accounted for interest, the only thing you lose by starting a year late is the final year ($88k).

 

[Dapper]

Here are numbers (assuming 100% savings, 5% raise, 5% interest).

Yearly Income + Interest
40
44
48.3
52.92
57.88125
63.206325
68.91920438
75.04535588
81.61182451
88.64732663

Since we've accounted for interest, the only thing you lose by starting a year late is the final year ($88k).

On that 10th year, when the non-traveler made $88k, the traveler is making $81k. That is $7k difference.

I ran the numbers for you above for a 10 year timeframe (twice, once as a ballpark, the other is the actual calculation).

I know, you should understand what you are saying first.

40 vs 0
42 vs 40
44.1 vs 42
46.3 vs 44.1
48.6 vs 46.3
51.1 vs 48.6
53.6 vs 51.1
56.3 vs 53.6
59.1 vs 56.3
62.1 vs 59.1

It is a pattern. It won't change. The number for the traveler is always equal to the year, or line above, before for the non-traveler.

 

[CMvan46]

On that 10th year, when the non-traveler made $88k, the traveler is making $81k. That is $7k difference.

I know, you should understand what you are saying first.

It is a pattern. It won't change. The number for the traveler is always equal to the year, or line above, before for the non-traveler.

This!!!!!!!!!! Good god. One year later the traveler has the exact same amount of money and travelling when they were young.

 

[slims]

Why are you guys so hung up about the math? Sure it's a great argument in a perfect world to say X started working before Y and will therefore have more retirement money 45 years later. That is flawed on so many levels. Life is not predictable like that, you can't even begin to factor in things like debt, inflation, unexpected circumstances, illness, injuries and all manner of other things over a 45 year period. Heck, why even bother wasting 4 years in college? Start work as soon as possible so you can have even more money for retirement.

 

[Joel]

Well I'm considering doing an exchange trip to France next year, I'll be graduating high school this year, but I want to go on this trip before I go of to University. I've been taking French classes through high school, and I'm hoping that with the immersion I'd get there, I'd be fluent by the time I'm done, and go to school in Montréal fully bilingual.

 

[Dapper]

Why are you guys so hung up about the math?

I watch NickToons.