New Penalty Algorithm (1.15)

[Smyven]

So i had a chance to have a good run on GT last night after installing 1.15, mainly at Monza gr.1 in sport mode and it was one of those evening's where the idiots are out in force so what better time to see how the 1.15 faired up with the penalties and i have to say it seems like its gone backwards again. I mean there is no mention of a change to the algorythim in the update but i was receiving a bunch of penalties for petty incidents that in most cases where caused by other drivers, for instance i would have a clear advantage going into a corner but the others car touching me would cause a penalty to both of us, this happened a number of times.
I than had someone slam on his anchors down a straight while i was slipstreaming to the finish line, it was a clean race until that point and quite exciting but i ended up crossing the line with a red S, a 3 second penalty and dumped down the pecking order, how the hell is that fair, what sort of game punishes you for doing this, if it was real life the bloke who broke in this manner down the straight would be reprimanded, banned for a number of races or possibly thrown out motorsport for being a danger. But the real reason reason he did this was because he had to serve a penalty, but he chose to serve it while i was tailgating and therein lies another whole problem in itself, why just not add the penalty to the finished time, sorted, or a drive through.
There was one race where i made contact a number of times but none malicious and none fatal, touchy tappy stuff where i was in a clean clear position of advantage but the penalties just seemed to keep on coming. people could just dive bomb and i would get penalised. I finished the evening with the same ratings as i had started but it was a crap and unenjoyable affair. So when are they going to make a decision, when are they going to stabilise the system, i really enjoyed the racing after the last update, It was almost a mans sport again, you could get in there but you had to have respect but after last night i cant really make heads or tails of it, sort it out FFS.

To me it seems who ever makes up the rules over analyses motorsport and doesn't really understand it.

 

[ASH32]

Yes the update has just made it worse if anything, although the change is minimal, you get penalties for nothing and in my case I then end up racing against people 1 to as much as 10 seconds a lap slower, all because in the previous race I was bumped from behind a couple of times (usually 1second penalty to us both) and then made a small contact with someone and this took it to over 5 second of penalties and so the penalty time starting going up instantly when I was in a place where it was not a good place to serve a penalty. Result is from S (99) to barely an A rated sportsmanship, it's very possible to drop to B and maybe even C in one race, having done very little wrong.

 

[Smyven]

Fair enough taking big ranking drops if your reckless and deserve it but not for misdemeanours. Back to the online Lobby then by the sounds of it. The most frustrating thing is you don't know where you stand with it and for me it determines the amount of pleasure i get out of the game in sport mode as its so fundamental.

 

[Pfoetiman]

The penalty system is ridiculous. I was on the inside of the corner and got bumped by the car on the outside. I got a 2 second penalty. Another race similar situation. Being bumped from a car on my side while I was in front and on the inside of the corner. I got a 2 second penalty.

I did an experiment. It was not nice and fair. Just like destruction derby I bumped a car with full speed in its side on a straight part of the track. I got no penalty and even no orange SR.

Does it mean you can just bump the side of an opponent car without being penalised? Ok my SR went down a bit but my DR raised because I could pass three cars due to this accident.

Btw. I was DR B SR S. Now B/A.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

(DR:B / SR:S)

The algorithm does appear to be changed favoring the inside driver despite wether they should be their or not. Once I adapted to a more defensive line I went on a clean racing streak despite aggressively trading paint with abusive drivers. I know I'm being presumptive but it almost feels like driving on the edges of the track makes you immune to lateral ramming penalties, which would make sense, since where else are you supposed to go after you reach the edge of the track?

 

[ASH32]

The penalty system is ridiculous. I was on the inside of the corner and got bumped by the car on the outside. I got a 2 second penalty. Another race similar situation. Being bumped from a car on my side while I was in front and on the inside of the corner. I got a 2 second penalty.

I did an experiment. It was not nice and fair. Just like destruction derby I bumped a car with full speed in its side on a straight part of the track. I got no penalty and even no orange SR.

Does it mean you can just bump the side of an opponent car without being penalised? Ok my SR went down a bit but my DR raised because I could pass three cars due to this accident.

Btw. I was DR B SR S. Now B/A.

If it was a A or S rated driver you hit pretty much yes, as the higher rated driver it was their fault according to the game and they likely got the penalty for it as well. Slight contacts usually just give equal penalties to both parties when really it should be nothing, that's probably what happened when you got 2 second penalties.

Also once your SR rating drops the penalties are much less and again as a A you could probably intentionally contact an SR S guy and get them a penalty, although I have not experienced that yet.

 

[Smyven]

The penalty system is ridiculous. I was on the inside of the corner and got bumped by the car on the outside. I got a 2 second penalty. Another race similar situation. Being bumped from a car on my side while I was in front and on the inside of the corner. I got a 2 second penalty.

I did an experiment. It was not nice and fair. Just like destruction derby I bumped a car with full speed in its side on a straight part of the track. I got no penalty and even no orange SR.

Does it mean you can just bump the side of an opponent car without being penalised? Ok my SR went down a bit but my DR raised because I could pass three cars due to this accident.

Btw. I was DR B SR S. Now B/A.

I seemed to suffer these things too, I had a clear advantage on the inside and the other guy was reckless on my outside and i still copped a penalty, there was loads of little penalties, they didnt seem too harsh but they just seemed to add up, I couldn't make heads or tails of it, how are you meant to play a game with ever changing rules when you dont know the rules, i know the rules of motorsport, just not theres.

If it was a A or S rated driver you hit pretty much yes, as the higher rated driver it was their fault according to the game and they likely got the penalty for it as well. Slight contacts usually just give equal penalties to both parties when really it should be nothing, that's probably what happened when you got 2 second penalties.

Also once your SR rating drops the penalties are much less and again as a A you could probably intentionally contact an SR S guy and get them a penalty, although I have not experienced that yet.

Shouldn't any rated driver be treated the same, We all enter at the same point with the same reputation, just adds more confusion really. if you have a poor rating or not and you cause the same incident whats the difference, and if you are going to put S and A drivers in the same race then it seems even more confusing to treat them individually.

 

[ASH32]

Shouldn't any rated driver be treated the same, We all enter at the same point with the same reputation, just adds more confusion really. if you have a poor rating or not and you cause the same incident whats the difference.

Yes. Apparently PD think differently though as this is the system now, at least from what I've seen.

 

[Pfoetiman]

If it was a A or S rated driver you hit pretty much yes, as the higher rated driver it was their fault according to the game and they likely got the penalty for it as well. Slight contacts usually just give equal penalties to both parties when really it should be nothing, that's probably what happened when you got 2 second penalties.

Also once your SR rating drops the penalties are much less and again as a A you could probably intentionally contact an SR S guy and get them a penalty, although I have not experienced that yet.

I want to be a SR S driver because I like it hard but fair. I am not better than a low DR B. That’s ok to me. I like to let the faster guys pass me and try to get their line. I have no problems with being touched softly by another driver, that’s racing. Being punished for nothing is ...! A dropping SR while being hit by another car is ...!

 

[Brzlav]

I did an experiment. It was not nice and fair. Just like destruction derby I bumped a car with full speed in its side on a straight part of the track. I got no penalty and even no orange SR.

Some time ago another driver did this to me in Interlagos when I had exited the last turn faster than him and was driving next to him on the home straight. He turned into the side of my car three times, so I had to brake to not spin out. There was no penalty to either of us.

 

[Sander 001]

So much of these problems come from the fact that it’s way too hard to overtake. PD absolutely needs to increase the slipstreaming effect.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I posted it in another thread already yet here is 27 seconds of penalties in the first lap

Contacts starts at 0:50. First I get hit by a car that didn't brake on time in T1, 10 sec, then a car turns into me while I'm on the inside, 2 sec, then I get dive bombed in Ascari which causes me to slide and slightly tap the car in front of me (without effect to him) 5 + 10 sec.

It seems the victim gets punished more at A/S. In another race I got dive bombed, I get 5 sec, he gets 1 sec. I get brake checked on the straight, I get 10 sec, other car got nothing. 2 incidents like that were enough for a red rating at the end of race C. I had some great clean racing earlier, yet the last 3 races had these kind of contacts, most without effect to the cars or positions, some I simply got crashed into. Nothing I could do about it except pull over when a car comes near.... My SR went from 99 to 63.

 

[Smyven]

So much of these problems come from the fact that it’s way too hard to overtake. PD absolutely needs to increase the slipstreaming effect.

i Just went to an A for tapping a guy lightly in the rear and nothing happened not to mention the 5 second penalty and race ruined. What a load of rubbish. They need to do something.

 

[daschund]

Yeah, yesterday was very annoying to me too. I had a great, great qualifying time (first time in the top 10, even thou I fell out of the board in the afternoon) and has a happy camper starting on pole only to get bumped from behind in the first corner. 5 second penalty. Ended up falling to 4th place because of the bump, and on the second time around the chicane I bumped into the 3rd place (my fault, but a very minor bump that didn't take him out of the track and didn't even mess up his corner. Result: another 10s penalty. With that I ended up all the way on the end of the pack and got another two 10s penalties for people hitting me. Went from S to B in one race. Why did PD change this back at all when everyone was complaining about this?!?!

 

[SCPH1000]

So much of these problems come from the fact that it’s way too hard to overtake.

as it is in the real world

 

[John Moore]

I posted it in another thread already yet here is 27 seconds of penalties in the first lap

Contacts starts at 0:50. First I get hit by a car that didn't brake on time in T1, 10 sec, then a car turns into me while I'm on the inside, 2 sec, then I get dive bombed in Ascari which causes me to slide and slightly tap the car in front of me (without effect to him) 5 + 10 sec.

It seems the victim gets punished more at A/S. In another race I got dive bombed, I get 5 sec, he gets 1 sec. I get brake checked on the straight, I get 10 sec, other car got nothing. 2 incidents like that were enough for a red rating at the end of race C. I had some great clean racing earlier, yet the last 3 races had these kind of contacts, most without effect to the cars or positions, some I simply got crashed into. Nothing I could do about it except pull over when a car comes near.... My SR went from 99 to 63.

Thats because there are only 4 letters to the algorithm. and sport mode is too fast, theres not enough time to investigate each race, no voting system, reporting doesnt do anything...

 

[Ecghteow]

Strange. To me it felt as though the system got even more lax. Plenty of rubbing and tapping without any real consequences. Only penalty came from getting bumped and cutting a chicane as result. On Sr S.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

So much of these problems come from the fact that it’s way too hard to overtake. PD absolutely needs to increase the slipstreaming effect.

Even upping the slipstream wouldn't stop people from weave blocking and generally being ******. Passing wouldn't be that hard if people would respect the overtaking car and the Penalty system worked correctly.

 

[ASH32]

Even upping the slipstream wouldn't stop people from weave blocking and generally being ******. Passing wouldn't be that hard if people would respect the overtaking car and the Penalty system worked correctly.

I agree and I'd go further too, upping the slipstream would just put more slower drivers in a position to attempt a pass, likely a risky one that they are not fast enough or good enough to make and you'll get more ridiculous penalties, often to the innocent person. It may even be the worse thing they could do, just go drive at Monza if anyone wants to see why.

I have no problem passing and racing cleanly when the other drivers are good, it just starts to go real wrong when people act unpredictably. Sure it's very difficult to pass similar pace drivers to me but that's how it should be and I don't just punt them off because I think I'm faster, maybe others should try this too.

 

[Racin-Rev]

In today's race I on the last lap one turn from the finish and booted from the rear hard enough to spin me straight into the grass and wall. Upon recovery I received no penalty at all, only the three grid places lost to cars passing me while in the spin. The car that hit me must have been penalized quite a bit. When I rejoined the track he was ghosted, barely moving (assume waiting for penalty to elapse), and did take his place behind me at the finish. Perhaps he was just allowing me that place back due to his failure(good sport). This is quite different from times when I have been knocked from the track from behind and had to absorb the time penalty also.

 

[simsimsheree]

I mean there is no mention of a change to the algorythim in the update but i was receiving a bunch of penalties for petty incidents that in most cases where caused by other drivers, for instance i would have a clear advantage going into a corner but the others car touching me would cause a penalty to both of us, this happened a number of times.

From the update notes from PD:

"Sport Mode

　- If a car pushes another car into a wall, the penalty applied to the player of the car that caused the incident will now be more severe;
　- In a collision between two cars, the car behind will no longer receive a more severe penalty;
　- A Time Penalty will no longer be applied to cars spinning out of control;
　- No penalties for collisions will be applied while a Time Penalty is counting down. (*In a future update, we plan to make cars under such condition semi-transparent);
　- Cars over a lap behind will now be ghosted depending on the distance from the player's car."

This in particular may explain much and show that basically, PD is pandering to the lowest skill drivers while the game is still selling well.

In most real life racing, and definitely in most organized Leagues, it is primarily the responsibility of the trailing driver to avoid contact (after all, what can the leading car do to avoid it? LOL). PD took steps to enforce this and weight the contact penalty, the bashers and highly aggressive drivers whined and whined, and PD responded with their bottom line as the priority, not the actual rules of the sport.

 

[danardif1]

It seems to me that the penalty system has gone backwards. I dropped from a S to a B in just a few races in the Red Bull Junior today from people purposely delaying applying the throttle on corner exits, the slightest tap from my nose gives me a 3-5 second penalty and big SR drops...

 

[TamasToth]

I’m happy to be away. Just reading, not driving today. And it seems to me that I’d happily trade in Tsukuba with all the 13 new cars for a fair and reasonably working penalty and matchmaking system...

 

[simsimsheree]

The thing that puzzles me the most is, the game has already got the data for each track and each Group of cars to present a driving line that shows braking zones. So essentially, the game should know where, if the lead car deliberately brake checks you on a straight, it is entirely the lead car's fault in all contact.

The game also knows the point that, beyond 'this' point, the car behind cannot possibly make the turn. If the driver behind late brakes after 'this' point and contact is made with a car in front that didn't brake earlier than 'this' point, this is also entirely the trailing car's fault.

Now yes, a certain amount of playtesting might be needed to fine tune those driving line zones to account for real driver's abilities, not the 'drive like your granny' AI, but the mechanism is there for data to help weight penalties. But seems to be unused.

Ideas?

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Strange. To me it felt as though the system got even more lax. Plenty of rubbing and tapping without any real consequences. Only penalty came from getting bumped and cutting a chicane as result. On Sr S.

Are you DR.B perhaps? I had the pleasure of getting matched with B to D rooms since I was down to A/B. DR.B drivers can draft bump me in every corner without consequences, even bumping me out of the corner into the wall, no SR down for the other player. However when it's a DR.A driver bump passing me I get a penalty.

I survived the low rooms, and climbed back to 99 SR from 63 with the daily B. I'm glad to be away from all the DR B.umping again. If anything draft is too strong as people only think they're faster when catching up by drafting, plus many do not consider it affects braking distance as well and complain the car in front is braking too early.

in S/S A/S rooms racing is better as most people understand the basics and can keep it on the road. There's still plenty issues though as dive bombs still work far too often so people keep doing it instead of learning how to properly overtake. Plus it's dangerous going for that late apex and faster exit to set up a pass as the car behind will usually go for a fast in bump pass when they see the slightest opportunity.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

The thing that puzzles me the most is, the game has already got the data for each track and each Group of cars to present a driving line that shows braking zones. So essentially, the game should know where, if the lead car deliberately brake checks you on a straight, it is entirely the lead car's fault in all contact.

The game also knows the point that, beyond 'this' point, the car behind cannot possibly make the turn. If the driver behind late brakes after 'this' point and contact is made with a car in front that didn't brake earlier than 'this' point, this is also entirely the trailing car's fault.

Now yes, a certain amount of playtesting might be needed to fine tune those driving line zones to account for real driver's abilities, not the 'drive like your granny' AI, but the mechanism is there for data to help weight penalties. But seems to be unused.

Ideas?

You're assuming that any information obtained by the game is fluidly accessible to other aspects of the game. For example, clearly the game can detect dynamic racing lines since it makes them, so why can't is use that info for penalty assessment? Well, we don't know how that data is being tracked, logged, and shared within the programming so that might not be the case. Their penalty system could also be focused on entirely different metrics, a case of the left hand not knowing what the right foot is doing, sort of thing.

 

[Smyven]

The thing that puzzles me the most is, the game has already got the data for each track and each Group of cars to present a driving line that shows braking zones. So essentially, the game should know where, if the lead car deliberately brake checks you on a straight, it is entirely the lead car's fault in all contact.

Ideas?

Well from my experience at Monza last night this was not the case, i slipstreamed to the final flag, he broke on the monza straight, i smash up his rear and get penalised, dropped down the order and a red S for good measure.
I absolutely agree with all you said, maybe a little tolerance added to the length of the braking zones, say start it a little earlier but end it at the apex as no bodys perfect. Also if your side to side and someone does the classic F-you manoeuvre of the edge and leaves no space than he's responsible and should be given a penalty. But if he has the advantage into the corner then he should have the rights. If you think about it, its all quite obvious how it should work but it just doesn't, it can be odd and unpredictable and that just leaves you wondering how you should approach a straight forward driving game.
I mean i drive with respect and never lunge, i enjoy the battle rather than the victory but some just seem to be to desperate at all costs to preserve or gain a position that is well out there capabilities in the given situation.

 

[simsimsheree]

But at least the mechanism exists. So many have tried to excuse PD's abysmal fault detection with a blanket 'Well, how could the game possibly know who is at fault?".

I believe this answers how.

Whether it gets used is up to how much PD care. Apparently, at the present, hardly any at all.

 

[rsergio007]

The idea is NOT making contact. Try it.

 

[Smyven]

The idea is NOT making contact. Try it.

I do all the time, fundamentally. but most of the time it’s contact bought to me by others and for some reason when I watch motorsport on tv and they go wheel to wheel or make harmless contact they don’t get penalised, I tried that too but it didn’t pay off.