New Penalty Algorithm (1.15)

[Pfoetiman]

Why is DR C so different to DR B? I thought DR B are better drivers but in the low B there are a lot of „crash driver“. I think they know how to use the game if they want to have an advance while driving dirty. Some are bumping all the time and get a blue A or S.
I don’t know anything about programming a game, but the status quo is ********! Someone must be able to fix it!
Every single race has penalties for everyone except the one who has the pole position and can hold the 1st place until finish.
Or maybe is it just my problem? Do I see it just like I want to see it. Is everything fine and I just recognise it wrong.

 

[ASH32]

The idea is NOT making contact. Try it.

You can not stop people running into you and getting you a penalty. You could drive totally clean and drop to SR B from SR S if you were unlucky enough. That's just stupid.

 

[Mirror_man]

You can not stop people running into you and getting you a penalty. You could drive totally clean and drop to SR B from SR S if you were unlucky enough. That's just stupid.

Absolutely Stupid...

 

[.star.]

I feel like its more or less the same, which is not a good thing. Very inconsistent.

I got bumped out, hit in my quarter panel in the final turn and lost a victory. I'M the one who got a 3 sec' penalty and a big SR down. Very disappointing but i guess 2nd from P6 starting is ok, the win would've been better though... Dropped me SR A down to C which is crazy IMO.

 

[gt5 staff]

I dont see the penalty system so bad, it's actually ok.

All you driver says "it's the other car"

When you ALL say like that, my question is "who is the other car ?"

When you race after race get rammed, punched and so on, then it's time to look at your self, what can you do to avoid that?

Let's try something new. Give each other advice for how to avoiding all the problems you guys have.

There an video in this tread where the guy gets 27 second penalty on first lap at monza

He could have avoided the first accident, use the mirror I saw the punching before it happent.

 

[GT6mebe]

The thing that puzzles me the most is, the game has already got the data for each track and each Group of cars to present a driving line that shows braking zones. So essentially, the game should know where, if the lead car deliberately brake checks you on a straight, it is entirely the lead car's fault in all contact.

The game also knows the point that, beyond 'this' point, the car behind cannot possibly make the turn. If the driver behind late brakes after 'this' point and contact is made with a car in front that didn't brake earlier than 'this' point, this is also entirely the trailing car's fault.

Now yes, a certain amount of playtesting might be needed to fine tune those driving line zones to account for real driver's abilities, not the 'drive like your granny' AI, but the mechanism is there for data to help weight penalties. But seems to be unused.

Ideas?

With so much data, one needs to first identify the clean or ideal states and then do some statistical averaging. Basically you would need a computer scientist who knows machine learning. I don't think PD have such staff but they should. Its the ideal method.

Or easier, one could simply select brake zones and speed regions, though it will still be difficult to account for all scenarios.

People think its easy but coding such models from real time data is far from that.

 

[anthonyfa18]

We went back 5 steps with this update

 

[simsimsheree]

I dont see the penalty system so bad, it's actually ok.

All you driver says "it's the other car"

When you ALL say like that, my question is "who is the other car ?"

When you race after race get rammed, punched and so on, then it's time to look at your self, what can you do to avoid that?

Let's try something new. Give each other advice for how to avoiding all the problems you guys have.

There an video in this tread where the guy gets 27 second penalty on first lap at monza

He could have avoided the first accident, use the mirror I saw the punching before it happent.

Tell you what. Get in front of me, and, if I choose to deliberately hit you, tell me how you would avoid it. Now tell me what the difference is between someone who deliberately chooses to hit you and someone with insufficient skill to NOT hit you. You are penalized identically.

It is remarks like this that show some people don't have a clue.

The only way with the new system to avoid penalties is to be last. Can't get hit by a trailing car if there is no trailing car. There. How do you like them apples..?

 

[Pfoetiman]

I was thinking a lot about what is wrong with the penalty system. I came to several conclusions.

1st: there are different kind of players, the one who want to have a clean, hard and fair race no doubt about their DR. SR seems to be more important because of the clean races.
The others just want to win. Doesn’t matter how they can reach their wish. DR is more important than SR. These players have advance with that penalty system now. To me, who wants to have a hard but fair race, does that mean: accept the way it is and just try to avoid any contact, using the radar and the mirror.

2nd: using some “Monstercars” is to difficult for some of the drivers. They just can’t handle e.g. a 911 like they should. But why do they take it? Because the fastest drivers use it. In the leaderboard you can only see this car so it must be the one, some of them might think. I also see the problem between the difference of a qualifying lap and the way to drive in a race.
Some of the GTPlanet users wrote the slipstream is not good enough, but to me there is another problem with it. I had the problems myself. When you are behind a car you have to brake earlier than without the slipstream. Even though you loose some grip if you are in the slipstream.

3rd: the big difference between using a wheel and a DS4. If I would use a DS4 during a race I would also bump most of the cars. Sure there are a lot of people who use the DS4 very well, but IMO a lot of users can’t. The combination of a “Monstercar” and a DS4 is for 80-90% of the users no good option.

4th: why is offline no penalty system. Offline you can race like “NFS” without consequences. Crashing, short cut and so on. I made some offline races before going to sport mode. Very big mistake. Luckily I only trained the track, but it took a while before I had the flow back. Btw. it was a track I didn’t play so much.

EDIT:
5th: I guess the choice of the camera view is also an important fact. I use the bumper cam and I know the nose of my car is where the red/white points are. The points who show how much you turn the steering wheel. (I hope you understand what I mean)
There are camera views I don’t use because I can not see where I am at the track.

I hope my English is good enough to understand want I want to tell you.

 

[NosOsH]

It seems to favor the divebombers as it is now or whoever is behind and hitting with the front of their car seem to take none or only minor penalties.
It's exactly the opposite of the way it should be right now to me.
Been taking a real Sr and also dr beating now the last two days, from A/S to A/C in one bad race then from there cant get a clean race without being hit. Been fighting hard from B/B to get back to B/S. Very frustrating though as any little bump or mistake could cost major Sr penalties and/or time penalties and Dr.
Also if you get pushed off or spin and accidently cut a corner or even have no choice expect major time penalties even while crawling and i think major sr hit as well.

 

[phil_75]

So much of these problems come from the fact that it’s way too hard to overtake. PD absolutely needs to increase the slipstreaming effect.

If you are at your optimal DR level passing isn't easy, thats the point.

I get far more of a thrill going nose to tail with other clean fast drivers even if im 15th than easily overtaking people and winning.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I dont see the penalty system so bad, it's actually ok.

All you driver says "it's the other car"

When you ALL say like that, my question is "who is the other car ?"

When you race after race get rammed, punched and so on, then it's time to look at your self, what can you do to avoid that?

Let's try something new. Give each other advice for how to avoiding all the problems you guys have.

There an video in this tread where the guy gets 27 second penalty on first lap at monza

He could have avoided the first accident, use the mirror I saw the punching before it happent.

I was watching the cars in front, not to hit them, and not to be too slow to get hit from behind. How many cars do you want me to track in the moment in real time? Let's count, I'm tracking the movements of 5 cars in front of me, finding a safe place to put my car with the hits happening in front of me. The dive bomb emerges in the mirror from behind 2 other cars that are braking at 16.8s, at 17.4s he appears on the radar, at 18.4s he hits. Analyzing his speed vector and responding to it in time while tracking and avoiding all the other cars, I guess I'm just not up to the task.

I already spend far too much time looking in the mirror while racing, expecting a dive bomb or bump pass at every corner. However with a bunch of cars in front to track as well, you would really hope someone isn't that stupid to dive into a crowd.

It's not race after race either. I race a lot, did 16 Monza races, 10 positive SR, 7 clean race bonus, 6 with penalties and negative SR. There are plenty of good races to be had, and many people experience those. If people were getting rammed race after race etc, how come it's always "I got dropped from SR.S to A or B because of this and this" You need to get back to SR.S first before getting dropped again...

Plus we were discussing the penalty algorithm in 1.15. So you're OK with me getting 10 sec penalty for not avoiding a dive bomb in time while the car performing the dive bomb only gets 1 sec?

Anyway, what's your advice to avoid all these problems.
I had a solution tonight, I played Wipeout VR instead.

 

[Smyven]

I dont see the penalty system so bad, it's actually ok. REALLY.

All you driver says "it's the other car" THATS CORRECT, THE OTHER CAR.

When you ALL say like that, my question is "who is the other car ?" DIDNT CATCH HIS NAME

When you race after race get rammed, punched and so on, then it's time to look at your self, what can you do to avoid that?
AVOID PEOPLE AND LET THEM BEAT ME DUE TO A SYSTEM THAT PENALISES AND RUINS FUN RACES THROUGH OTHERS MISTAKES

Let's try something new. Give each other advice for how to avoiding all the problems you guys have. HOW ABOUT WE GIVE EACH OTHER A BIG CUDDLE TOO.

There an video in this tread where the guy gets 27 second penalty on first lap at monza

He could have avoided the first accident, use the mirror I saw the punching before it happent.
YET IT STILL WASNT HIS FAULT. ISNT THAT THE 1.14

 

[John Moore]

Organized Sportraces (ranked) should be reviewed after each race by moderators. As simple as that.

People who race dirty and ruin races need to be put in another league until they prove to be clean enough, and that for every track, not globally.

Like a moderated point system for every track.

Or another idea is a ghost racing qualification series, where everyone is a ghost but the rules still apply, you nudge a ghost car you get a penalty without actually ruining the others race... and this until you reached enough track experience for the given track to go to actual ranked races... I dont know if Im making myself clear with this strange idea.

 

[supervento]

It's hard to get to (A - S) with pure racing
My conclusion is that drivers in group C and D are more desirable than AA and SS

 

[Smyven]

If you are at your optimal DR level passing isn't easy, thats the point.

I get far more of a thrill going nose to tail with other clean fast drivers even if im 15th than easily overtaking people and winning.

Spot on and that’s exactly how motorsport should be, I believe you can be stuck behind a car for 4 laps and never pull that move off, many a good and enjoyable race just following.
The problems arise should an opportunity arrive and you wish to make that move. Yep totally understand the no contact thing, don’t we all, but when you have an ever changing system with new flaws each time, you have start to logically think about how your meant to make the move in a way that isn’t going to totally ruin your experience and race. As an example if I see a fair overtaking opportunity I will make the move and give the other guy space on the outside exiting the corner but should we touch and nothing else comes of it I may suffer big time or I may not, I don’t know, because I don’t know how it works. Each update people say oh you can do this now, that’s changed, the bloke behind doesn’t get as bad a penalty or the lower classes fair better, what’s it to be, it’s confusing, overly sensitive and an experience killer. It’s like you can spend an evening trying to enjoy a game, trying your best to be as clean and COMPETITIVE as you can only to be left deflated by an illogical and unfair system.
Before the 1.14 I was a stable B/S sometimes A/S driver, when they released that patch in a matter of races I was down to a C/C, it was abysmal, I was so frustrated I didn’t give a monkeys after that i just went man racing, took every opportunity and didn’t really care about anyone, I ended up at D/E on purpose then in my D/E race I thought I’ll make an effort and just lay in last, stay out the way for a blue D, to my shock I was propelled back to a C/C in one race. I couldn’t make sense of it, they fixed the 1.14 and I slowly crawled back to an A/S but now the 1.15 is out it’s like walking on egg shells again, to many over sensitive penalties and less time actually enjoying the thing. They have to find a balance between fun and sterility and stick with it.

 

[ceres2000]

I really think a lot of people are more concerned about their DR than their SR which is why this crap happens.

Maybe the DR system just needs to be scrapped and the whole SR system needs to be overhauled. Sport mode races should be solely SR based and grid according to qualifying times. It should be bloody harder to achieve an SR S and keep it. The way it is now I can hardly believe some people are SR S the way they make dirty moves etc especially in the final lap. Frankly I don't see the point of DR...

For instance from my own experiences, there have been times when I've been bumped of the track in multiple races, lost places, finished dead last, dropped to a lower DR, won races easily, got back to a higher DR, rinse repeat. Not only is that unfair to lower level drivers it's also freaking boring because I know its kinda like cheating.

 

[Smyven]

I really think a lot of people are more concerned about their DR than their SR which is why this crap happens.

I think your right.

 

[Outspacer]

I really think a lot of people are more concerned about their DR than their SR which is why this crap happens.

Maybe the DR system just needs to be scrapped and the whole SR system needs to be overhauled. Sport mode races should be solely SR based and grid according to qualifying times. It should be bloody harder to achieve an SR S and keep it. The way it is now I can hardly believe some people are SR S the way they make dirty moves etc especially in the final lap. Frankly I don't see the point of DR...

You're absolutely right about SR needing an overhaul, it's working even less well than it used to. PD have tried to do it by handing out large -ve SR for incidents, so now even just a couple of incidents can mean dropping an SR level - so an SR A could be a completely clean driver who just happened to start in front of a dirty/messy one. Even then, he's only one or two clean races away from getting back to SR 99. So overall, the SR rating is telling us nothing about that driver except his last couple of races, which is pointless. SR will only be useful if it's a better reflection of longer term cleanliness.

These were my thoughts for an overhaul, which still apply with 1.15.

Matchmaking does use SR first and foremost, before using DR. That is a reasonable way to do it, but only if both ratings are working as they should. But neither are - SR as above, and DR because so many people are getting hit with DR 'resets' due to the wildly changing SR.

Both PD and players are getting so hung up on punishing each and every wrong-doing that they have lost sight of the bigger picture, which is an SR rating that actually means something.

 

[TomPyke]

Not sure its new, but when you spin off, hit a barrier and come to stop, lose lots of time. And still get a 5 second penalty 👍

 

[ASH32]

Not sure its new, but when you spin off, hit a barrier and come to stop, lose lots of time. And still get a 5 second penalty 👍

You can spin now and not get a penalty at least, one change that is better but as you discovered touch a barrier and you get a barrier contact penalty anyway.

 

[TomPyke]

I do find it astonishing that the game can’t work out whether you’ve gained an advantage or not from a corner cut or barrier hit. I wouldn’t mind a corner cut and then ‘Slow down’ myself for a half second to not gain time. Better than a 2 second slow down penalty that actuall costs about 5 seconds

 

[ASH32]

I do find it astonishing that the game can’t work out whether you’ve gained an advantage or not from a corner cut or barrier hit. I wouldn’t mind a corner cut and then ‘Slow down’ myself for a half second to not gain time. Better than a 2 second slow down penalty that actuall costs about 5 seconds

The best thing to do with those small penalties is not serve them and just let them get added to your race time, of course you run the risk of getting over 5 seconds worth, then you have to serve it or it just goes up and quite quickly too.
I had one and didn't notice it go up, then suddenly is was nearly 30 seconds worth of penalties.

 

[Marckyboy]

There is a thread on the official GT sport community explaining the changes and asking for videos of where it's not working. Can I suggest we record any incidents where we are incorrect punished and post them there as PD have asked. This is the only way to help them improve it.

I did two races last night, 1st I was punished when a car hit me and lost places, second was clean. Too hard to judge but PD have committed to continuing to try and improve I which is good.

 

[Mr616]

I was watching the cars in front, not to hit them, and not to be too slow to get hit from behind. How many cars do you want me to track in the moment in real time? Let's count, I'm tracking the movements of 5 cars in front of me, finding a safe place to put my car with the hits happening in front of me. The dive bomb emerges in the mirror from behind 2 other cars that are braking at 16.8s, at 17.4s he appears on the radar, at 18.4s he hits. Analyzing his speed vector and responding to it in time while tracking and avoiding all the other cars, I guess I'm just not up to the task.

I already spend far too much time looking in the mirror while racing, expecting a dive bomb or bump pass at every corner. However with a bunch of cars in front to track as well, you would really hope someone isn't that stupid to dive into a crowd.

It's not race after race either. I race a lot, did 16 Monza races, 10 positive SR, 7 clean race bonus, 6 with penalties and negative SR. There are plenty of good races to be had, and many people experience those. If people were getting rammed race after race etc, how come it's always "I got dropped from SR.S to A or B because of this and this" You need to get back to SR.S first before getting dropped again...

Plus we were discussing the penalty algorithm in 1.15. So you're OK with me getting 10 sec penalty for not avoiding a dive bomb in time while the car performing the dive bomb only gets 1 sec?

Anyway, what's your advice to avoid all these problems.
I had a solution tonight, I played Wipeout VR instead.

The point is, if the other people were actually deserving of their DR, they should drive accordingly. People and their behaviour is more to blame than the penalties.

A lot of people in sport mode do not have a clue. They want to overtake multiple people like they are AI, and see any incident in front as an opportunity to overtake instead of assessing the situation and maybe even backing off (shock horror).

People want relaxed penalties, but then all that happens is people game the system FACT! The game needs to rank people properly then you shouldn't have dive bombers trying ridiculous moves every race.

Accidents happen, and contact happens, but not multiple times in one race, or incidents in every race.

There is no perfect system to deal with human behaviour.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I really think a lot of people are more concerned about their DR than their SR which is why this crap happens.

Maybe the DR system just needs to be scrapped and the whole SR system needs to be overhauled. Sport mode races should be solely SR based and grid according to qualifying times. It should be bloody harder to achieve an SR S and keep it. The way it is now I can hardly believe some people are SR S the way they make dirty moves etc especially in the final lap. Frankly I don't see the point of DR...

For instance from my own experiences, there have been times when I've been bumped of the track in multiple races, lost places, finished dead last, dropped to a lower DR, won races easily, got back to a higher DR, rinse repeat. Not only is that unfair to lower level drivers it's also freaking boring because I know its kinda like cheating.

The point is, if the other people were actually deserving of their DR, they should drive accordingly. People and their behaviour is more to blame than the penalties.

A lot of people in sport mode do not have a clue. They want to overtake multiple people like they are AI, and see any incident in front as an opportunity to overtake instead of assessing the situation and maybe even backing off (shock horror).

People want relaxed penalties, but then all that happens is people game the system FACT! The game needs to rank people properly then you shouldn't have dive bombers trying ridiculous moves every race.

Accidents happen, and contact happens, but not multiple times in one race, or incidents in every race.

There is no perfect system to deal with human behaviour.

Indeed the DR system is flawed. Instead of matching people on SR/DR it should group people based on average race pace for each track. As well as SR should be based on average number of incidents over time, not a point scale you can easily top up again by going easy on a daily C for one or two races.

I slow down when I see an accident or car in front getting in trouble, and that often puts me in trouble as anyone behind me simply pushes on. Then they even blames me afterwards "I hit you because you were going slow" It's a no win situation, either you punt the car messing up in front, or you get hit by the car on your tail. So I usually let the car behind me pass and drive behind the group waiting for them to mess up and over take them while serving penalties or eating dirt. That's what racing is now....

 

[Mr616]

Indeed the DR system is flawed. Instead of matching people on SR/DR it should group people based on average race pace for each track. As well as SR should be based on average number of incidents over time, not a point scale you can easily top up again by going easy on a daily C for one or two races.

I slow down when I see an accident or car in front getting in trouble, and that often puts me in trouble as anyone behind me simply pushes on. Then they even blames me afterwards "I hit you because you were going slow" It's a no win situation, either you punt the car messing up in front, or you get hit by the car on your tail. So I usually let the car behind me pass and drive behind the group waiting for them to mess up and over take them while serving penalties or eating dirt. That's what racing is now....

This is the problem. If you are grouped with similar ranked players, how is it that you can react to situations but they cannot? I have experienced this myself so I feel your frustration.

I have eased off because of trouble ahead only to be overtaken by x2 cars going flat out into the scene of an accident. Is that behaviour expected of a DR:A SR:S driver? No, not for me. DR:A and DR:S (in SR:S) should be people with race craft and and definitive understanding of racing and racing cleanly. There are plenty of fast drivers who simply cannot race well with others on track.

 

[dudejustsmokeit]

This is just my opinion but I see it mostly being a car control problem then add people that have no clue how to properly race It’s just chaos. They’ve made it feel like to me anyways your racing on an greasy oily surface it’s gotten worse with every update. Now I’m not expecting the car to feel glued to the track but there is no feel in the racing

 

[Nuschel01]

Why does my game says somebody got a penalty and after the race he doesn‘t have a red dot despite not slowing down once to serve it? 🤬

 

[simsimsheree]

Why PD are asking for submissions from players for a system that, if they play-tested it themselves, they would quickly find the issues is beyond comprehension.

Does anyone at PD actually PLAY this game? This rather indicates no...