"News Flash" Racing Setups Aren't One Size Fits All

[mthomas_95]

That argument only works if you believe that the average Gran Turismo player doesn’t recognize that lower lap times are better. I know we’re a stupid bunch but not that stupid!

There's a big difference between wanting a lower lap time and knowing how to get that lower lap time.

Present 90% of players to the car setup screen in *insert any sim here* and they'll be overwhelmed. It's exactly why PC2 did the Race Engineer option front and centre of the setup menu, even among what is regarded as a more 'sim' title than GT with a more elitist playerbase

 

[Sander 001]

There's a big difference between wanting a lower lap time and knowing how to get that lower lap time.

Present 90% of players to the car setup screen in *insert any sim here* and they'll be overwhelmed. It's exactly why PC2 did the Race Engineer option front and centre of the setup menu, even among what is regarded as a more 'sim' title than GT with a more elitist playerbase

If a player fiddles around with their setup and it doesn’t work, they’ll try again or go back to the default setup. So at worst, the delta will remain the same.

But there’s a wealth of knowledge available for anybody who even has the mildest desire to improve, from Tidgney race school, to an entire forum dedicated to just tuning setups.

 

[mthomas_95]

If a player fiddles around with their setup and it doesn’t work, they’ll try again or go back to the default setup. So at worst, the delta will remain the same.

But there’s a wealth of knowledge available for anybody who even has the mildest desire to improve, from Tidgney race school, to an entire forum dedicated to just tuning setups.

But the top guys will be exploiting the usually oversteer heavy OP setup that's seconds a lap faster than default, so the guys at default drop even further back.

Tidge actually hates the idea of setups more than I do interestingly , So you won't find much car setup talk in his guides and the setup forum on this isn't as in depth as many lead on. And again, the fastest setups can be difficult to tame further exaggerating the skill gap.

When they opened tuning for that W08 Exhibition Nations race I won top split by half a minute and only 5 completed the race before the time limit

 

[JayRS200]

I disagree that free tuning would be better.

Racing for years in GT5 amd GT6 lobbies with tuning allowed, I found that the fastest people had the most weird tunes, making basically every car handle something like the stock Huracan GT3 or even like The RUF BTR from GT6, even with FR cars.

I remember a guy called ROOB OG or something had his RX7 with a lot of weight to the rear 42-58 IIRC.

In GTS I would usually tune in a bit of stability, but then I noticed most fast people were running very low rear downforce on FR GT3 and most GT4 cars, alluding to this pointy tune being used again. Tried out some of the tunes and sure enough they were just weird unnatural feeling and wild, but fast in the right hands.

I think the stock tune in GTS is about right. Some cars are pointy some cars are stable, but none of them are as wild as some tunes that feel like it is rear wheel steering.

 

[Sander 001]

But the top guys will be exploiting the usually oversteer heavy OP setup that's seconds a lap faster than default, so the guys at default drop even further back.

Tidge actually hates the idea of setups more than I do interestingly , So you won't find much car setup talk in his guides and the setup forum on this isn't as in depth as many lead on. And again, the fastest setups can be difficult to tame further exaggerating the skill gap.

When they opened tuning for that W08 Exhibition Nations race I won top split by half a minute and only 5 completed the race before the time limit

If oversteer was faster, you’d see lap times dropping as tires wear out.

Tidgney race school wasn’t brought up for tuning setups, it’s to show that there’s a wealth of resources for all categories available for anybody who wants to compete at the top.

 

[Groundfish]

or they just do a simple google search on their phone while playing and find a setup then immediately improve.

My take on this is what’s the point? There’s no skill in that either.
Gt Sport has it right, for a simgamsimcadearcade whatever it is. Equal playing field for all.
In real life, the situation is opposite the to what the most fair choice is in an online environment.
Would it make any game better to have the game, lose, then have to perform the tedium of google search, then go back in put in those setting and lose less?
For a lot of us, we want to hop in and race. No bs, no google search, no driver installs, third party enhancement apps, tuning cars, for many of us this is recreation. We want plug and play, because the fun part is the playing...For some of us like me that is.
Plus, KNOWING, ABSOLUTELY KNOWING, that the car setup under bop is the same as the one used to set a top ten time is GREAT.
I tried one of the often espoused sim games and was looking at leaderboard times like wtf. Of course these all require tunes.
Just gimme a car capable of doing the time and let me find the way. I’m not here to be Encyclopedia Brown doing detective work wondering if it’s me or the care. In GT Sport, the answer is ITS ME I AM SLOWER T A LOT OF PEOPLE. But, at least it’s not the car.
PLUG AND PLAY.

 

[_ApexPredator]

If oversteer was faster, you’d see lap times dropping as tires wear out.

Not sure if deliberately missing the point or not...

 

[Vegard]

The ideal solution would be better default setups.
Toe angles and anti roll bars in particular are set to give very safe and pushy handling* while the LSD settings are too aggressive*.
They've struck a poor compromise in my opinion.

Considering all the driving assists that are available they should have set the cars up to handle a bit more neutral.
Dial back the ridiculous toe angles, develop more unique, car-specific ARB and LSD settings and stop covering it all up with grip.



*This is a generalization but it's quite accurate for the majority of cars.

 

[Scaff]

My take on this is what’s the point? There’s no skill in that either.
Gt Sport has it right, for a simgamsimcadearcade whatever it is. Equal playing field for all.
In real life, the situation is opposite the to what the most fair choice is in an online environment.
Would it make any game better to have the game, lose, then have to perform the tedium of google search, then go back in put in those setting and lose less?
For a lot of us, we want to hop in and race. No bs, no google search, no driver installs, third party enhancement apps, tuning cars, for many of us this is recreation. We want plug and play, because the fun part is the playing...For some of us like me that is.
Plus, KNOWING, ABSOLUTELY KNOWING, that the car setup under bop is the same as the one used to set a top ten time is GREAT.
I tried one of the often espoused sim games and was looking at leaderboard times like wtf. Of course these all require tunes.
Just gimme a car capable of doing the time and let me find the way. I’m not here to be Encyclopedia Brown doing detective work wondering if it’s me or the care. In GT Sport, the answer is ITS ME I AM SLOWER T A LOT OF PEOPLE. But, at least it’s not the car.
PLUG AND PLAY.

One slight problem with this argument is that even with tuning locked it still not a balanced playing field in any situation beyond the N-Class races.

The reason why?

The second you have more than one car in a class, then car x will be quicker than car y on a particular circuit, as such the only way to actually get what you want would be to limit sport mode to single make racing. I've even heard of people using a certain car to achieve a fast qualifying time and then switch to a more stable car for the races, as the position you gain in qualifying is far more important than any other factor (something that certainly should be addressed - you should have to use the car you qualify in to race - switch cars and you're qualifying time should be blank for the new car).

Using 'balance' as an argument for no tuning while ignoring other areas of imbalance is a bit odd in my view and a much better alternative would be to actually sort out the GTS physics engine and tuning to get it to work in a manner that is actually realistic, then include a Race Engineer (as in PC2) to assist those who are not able or unfamiliar with tuning.

 

[Pigems]

Sport mode is about who can drive “this car, set up this way” the fastest, everyone races the same version of the same car. Tuning would destroy that and I’d probably stop playing sport mode because of it.

Plus, people just end up using tuning in way that is unrealistic and just exploits flaws in the games physics.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I'll chime in.

One slight problem with this argument is that even with tuning locked it still not a balanced playing field in any situation beyond the N-Class races.

The reason why?

The second you have more than one car in a class, then car x will be quicker than car y on a particular circuit, as such the only way to actually get what you want would be to limit sport mode to single make racing. I've even heard of people using a certain car to achieve a fast qualifying time and then switch to a more stable car for the races, as the position you gain in qualifying is far more important than any other factor (something that certainly should be addressed - you should have to use the car you qualify in to race - switch cars and you're qualifying time should be blank for the new car).

Using 'balance' as an argument for no tuning while ignoring other areas of imbalance is a bit odd in my view and a much better alternative would be to actually sort out the GTS physics engine and tuning to get it to work in a manner that is actually realistic, then include a Race Engineer (as in PC2) to assist those who are not able or unfamiliar with tuning.

Agreed.
Particularly with regards to qualifying, and I imagine it wouldn't be that hard for PD to organise.

Sport mode is about who can drive “this car, set up this way” the fastest, everyone races the same version of the same car. Tuning would destroy that and I’d probably stop playing sport mode because of it.

Fair enough, and to some extent I can agree with that.
So let's lock brake balance as well?

My impression on what some are saying is that a car setup in a particular fashion will naturally work for some drivers while being awkward for others, because of the variations in the way each person drives.
And I agree with that.

If I was to maintain BoP, lock the gearbox and downforce, but was able to adjust the suspension and diff to my liking, I would almost without question run faster lap times.
And most people probably would also.
But some would improve more than others because some already naturally drive with a style that suits the current standard locked settings.

I'm all for opening tuning in Sport Mode, even if it's just a select couple of components.

 

[Pigems]

I'll chime in.


Agreed.
Particularly with regards to qualifying, and I imagine it wouldn't be that hard for PD to organise.


Fair enough, and to some extent I can agree with that.
So let's lock brake balance as well?

My impression on what some are saying is that a car setup in a particular fashion will naturally work for some drivers while being awkward for others, because of the variations in the way each person drives.
And I agree with that.

If I was to maintain BoP, lock the gearbox and downforce, but was able to adjust the suspension and diff to my liking, I would almost without question run faster lap times.
And most people probably would also.
But some would improve more than others because some already naturally drive with a style that suits the current standard locked settings.

I'm all for opening tuning in Sport Mode, even if it's just a select couple of components.

I’d be ok with locking BB, it’s one less variable to think about. I like that everyone has to drive the exact same car/s, it’s makes for a more even playing field. We all have to adapt to each car equally instead of just making the cars match our driving styles, I feel it makes us better drivers this way.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I’d be ok with locking BB, it’s one less variable to think about. I like that everyone has to drive the exact same car/s, it’s makes for a more even playing field. We all have to adapt to each car equally instead of just making the cars match our driving styles, I feel it makes us better drivers this way.

Yeh, I guess I'ld be okay with locked BB as well, particularly if we were going down the "everyone drives the 'same' car" route.
It is drifting closer and closer towards the 'aids' argument though.

As for 'adapting' to each car instead of 'adjusting' cars, my impression is that many people simply don't.
Given the choice most will drive the car they are fastest in and avoid the cars they are slowest in.
And these cars will vary from driver to driver, because each driver is different.

In a sense we all already choose the car that's best 'tuned' to our own driving style, so what harm would there be to allow us to adjust some of the other cars we're not as fast in and open up the car roster a little bit more?

 

[Pigems]

Yeh, I guess I'ld be okay with locked BB as well, particularly if we were going down the "everyone drives the 'same' car" route.
It is drifting closer and closer towards the 'aids' argument though.

As for 'adapting' to each car instead of 'adjusting' cars, my impression is that many people simply don't.
Given the choice most will drive the car they are fastest in and avoid the cars they are slowest in.
And these cars will vary from driver to driver, because each driver is different.

In a sense we all already choose the car that's best 'tuned' to our own driving style, so what harm would there be to allow us to adjust some of the other cars we're not as fast in and open up the car roster a little bit more?

I understand what your saying, but those people won’t improve as much that way though, they’d always be driving a similar setups regardless of car. My issue with that would be the BoP, it seems it’s set now to roughly allow each car to be good and bad at certain things and has no real all around great car. I kinda of look at each car now as a “tune” in an of itself. I’ve learned to drive most of them now and it’s definitely made me a better driver than if I had simply made them all fit me and never gotten myself out of my comfort zone and pushed myself to learn other cars and ways of getting them around the track. I’ve learned to do things I never would have otherwise.

But I also understand that everyone is different and likes to do things differently, to each their own.

 

[Scaff]

I understand what your saying, but those people won’t improve as much that way though, they’d always be driving a similar setups regardless of car. My issue with that would be the BoP, it seems it’s set now to roughly allow each car to be good and bad at certain things and has no real all around great car. I kinda of look at each car now as a “tune” in an of itself. I’ve learned to drive most of them now and it’s definitely made me a better driver than if I had simply made them all fit me and never gotten myself out of my comfort zone and pushed myself to learn other cars and ways of getting them around the track. I’ve learned to do things I never would have otherwise.

For me its the exact opposite.

Certain cars I find the default and locked tunes to be utterly appaling and as a result, I will not touch them with a bargepole. One such example is the Grp.3 Alfa. I've driven in outside of Sport and I can tune it to a balance that really suits me and its a car I enjoy a great deal, with the locked default tune it simply doesn't suit the manner in which I drive and as a result, I'm utterly uncompetitive in it and do not enjoy driving it in any way.

This is not about making a car fit a set route a person goes down, and to be blunt GTS' tuning simply isn't detailed or effective enough, on the whole, to do that either, it's about balancing a car not making it drive like something it isn't.

I have to say I also personally don't agree that it would only make the fastest drivers faster. The truly fast drivers are gaining far more from driving around issues with the physics engine (and this has always been the case in GT) that I believe can be gained by tuning alone.

If PD really want to lock down tunes and remove advantage, as I say they should make everything single model racing, as that's the only way to achieve that end. The system right now favours one group (those who wish to exploit the physics engine), while locking out another group (those who wish to tune a car to a balance that consistent for them.

The 'drive it and use it to get used to it' argument is basically just saying 'git gud', well that exact same argument could be applied to tuning, open it up 'tune it and use it to get used to it' in other words 'git gud' at tuning.

Having GTS and Sport mode in particular as an analog of real-world motorsport is massively undone by lockin out tuning, as the number of real-world series that lock out all forms of tuning is almost non-existant.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I understand what your saying, but those people won’t improve as much that way though, they’d always be driving a similar setups regardless of car. My issue with that would be the BoP, it seems it’s set now to roughly allow each car to be good and bad at certain things and has no real all around great car. I kinda of look at each car now as a “tune” in an of itself. I’ve learned to drive most of them now and it’s definitely made me a better driver than if I had simply made them all fit me and never gotten myself out of my comfort zone and pushed myself to learn other cars and ways of getting them around the track. I’ve learned to do things I never would have otherwise.

But I also understand that everyone is different and likes to do things differently, to each their own.

Yeh, it's not a deal breaker for me, but I do wish there was something available to allow those of us who wish to tinker the chance to do so.
I enjoy Sport Mode, and for that matter most of the Lobbies I join are also Tuning Prohibited.
But there's nothing like sinking your teeth into a tuning session when there's a race coming up that allows it.

As for the BoP, yes I think you are right.
Allowing some cars to corner or brake better, or be more loose/stable, would have an impact.

 

[Mr616]

But the top guys will be exploiting the usually oversteer heavy OP setup that's seconds a lap faster than default, so the guys at default drop even further back.

Tidge actually hates the idea of setups more than I do interestingly , So you won't find much car setup talk in his guides and the setup forum on this isn't as in depth as many lead on. And again, the fastest setups can be difficult to tame further exaggerating the skill gap.

When they opened tuning for that W08 Exhibition Nations race I won top split by half a minute and only 5 completed the race before the time limit

This should end this thread. Fast guy gets faster while racing fast people with open setup.

I know in peoples heads they think "if I could just tweak this I could find an extra second", but in reality, the faster guys would find even more time, because they are faster.

I find it interesting that people who are for tuning in sport mode say you can google for setups if time is a problem, but then you are back to using somebody elses setup which might not work for you.

Fixed setup racing is the the most balanced way to do online racing. This discussion was done to death a few months ago.

 

[Scaff]

As for the BoP, yes I think you are right.
Allowing some cars to corner or brake better, or be more loose/stable, would have an impact.

It should (if the physics are correct) never be like that.

Tuning is always a compromise, no one tune is perfect for every corner, part of a corner or driver. A driver with a preference for a car that pushes will normally find it better in larger radius corners and corners that open, but painful on tighter radius corners and corners that close. With a driver and car balanced in the opposite direction finding the opposite.

As such its no more a balancing issue to BoP that the existing differences we currently have with differing cars (such as the F1 in Grp.3 running away on certain tracks)

This should end this thread. Fast guy gets faster while racing fast people with open setup.

Fixed setup racing is the most balanced way to do online racing. This discussion was done to death a few months ago.

I disagree with that opinion voiced as if its fact.

Fixed set-up is only the most balanced if the set-up works for you personally if it doesn't then its anything but balanced.

This discussion wasn't 'done to death' in GT, GT2, GT3, GT4, GT5 or GT6, so I see no chance that it will be done to death in GTS simply because some think it should be.

What PD should do if they want to control this is offer a range of pre-set tunes, one each for Loose, Neutral and Tight would do the job, which would be actually more balanced while still offering at least some choice.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

This should end this thread. Fast guy gets faster while racing fast people with open setup.

I know in peoples heads they think "if I could just tweak this I could find an extra second", but in reality, the faster guys would find even more time, because they are faster.

I find it interesting that people who are for tuning in sport mode say you can google for setups if time is a problem, but then you are back to using somebody elses setup which might not work for you.

Fixed setup racing is the the most balanced way to do online racing. This discussion was done to death a few months ago.

The thing though, is that I enjoy tuning.
It's fun, it's a challenge, and it's also great practise.
And there is a certain level of satisfaction in racing a car I've tuned myself.

You can tune for a fast balls-out qualy car, or a stable predictable race car, or for good tyre wear, etc., etc.
And having a week of racing and tweaking for Sport Mode would be awesome.

Whether the fast guys are faster or not is irrelevant.

 

[Progress823]

My thoughts for pennies:

Suspension and differential tuning should be allowed in sport mode. Race car drivers IRL provide their team feedback on what their car is doing and make adjustments to get the car to the driver’s liking. If the driver is given a suspension that is optimized to their style of driving, it will it be less of an ordeal of running laps with a poor setup until it sticks but more the fun factor of bettering your times with a car that works for you (hence why I have not touched a single sport or FiA race - and stick to races with friends).

 

[Progress823]

Sport mode is about who can drive “this car, set up this way” the fastest, everyone races the same version of the same car.

^^This is exactly why I have not done a single sport mode race.

The problem with that thought process (GTS being a FiA-sanctioned game and all) is again driver-team-car feedback. Suspension and differential tuning will change that. Or as someone said earlier, a “quick tune” option based on what the driver is feeling from the car.

 

[Pigems]

I’d be ok with stock Tight, Neutral and Loose settings for each car, it seems like a fairly decent compromise for both sides.

Just not open full force tuning where people can figure out how to game the system and physics of the game.

 

[jflomario]

I’d be ok with stock Tight, Neutral and Loose settings for each car, it seems like a fairly decent compromise for both sides.

Just not open full force tuning where people can figure out how to game the system and physics of the game.

^This^
Like in NFS Carbon.

 

[Scaff]

Just not open full force tuning where people can figure out how to game the system and physics of the game.

Unfortunatly they do this even with locked tuning.

 

[Pigems]

Unfortunatly they do this even with locked tuning.

Oh really?

 

[Scaff]

Oh really?

Yep.

Its more than possible to drive in a very unrealistic manner, particularly with certain cars using the brake balance and handbrake to gain an advantage using techniques that simply would not work in reality.

GTS physics engine has a number of issues that can be exploited, in the most basic terms plenty of them we probably all do, one example being how little impact riding the curbs, even the larger sausage curbs, has on the car.

Another that only people I refer to using a term that would break the AUP do is take advantage of the pinball collision effect to pass people. I tap on the rear end of a car will have a much more serious effect in the car being hit than the can making the impact. So you get punted into the long grass (when in reality the car should be unbalanced but not catapulted) yet often doesn't get caught as a penalty, if a player is so inclined why would they pass a car fairly when they can 'tap' them out of the way.

Every GT that has had online racing, and even before that with off-line leagues has been host to the kind of exploits and advantages, if I recall correctly one of the GT Academy times needed to be wiped because people found that running on the grass was both faster and didn't give a penalty, another had the fastest way around corners being to use the handbrake to get the back end out rather than using the actual brakes. Taking advantage of engine braking that should unbalance the car but doesn't was another old favourite.

The list is a very, very long one.

 

[PzR Slim]

Yep.

Its more than possible to drive in a very unrealistic manner, particularly with certain cars using the brake balance and handbrake to gain an advantage using techniques that simply would not work in reality.

GTS physics engine has a number of issues that can be exploited, in the most basic terms plenty of them we probably all do, one example being how little impact riding the curbs, even the larger sausage curbs, has on the car.

Another that only people I refer to using a term that would break the AUP do is take advantage of the pinball collision effect to pass people. I tap on the rear end of a car will have a much more serious effect in the car being hit than the can making the impact. So you get punted into the long grass (when in reality the car should be unbalanced but not catapulted) yet often doesn't get caught as a penalty, if a player is so inclined why would they pass a car fairly when they can 'tap' them out of the way.

Every GT that has had online racing, and even before that with off-line leagues has been host to the kind of exploits and advantages, if I recall correctly one of the GT Academy times needed to be wiped because people found that running on the grass was both faster and didn't give a penalty, another had the fastest way around corners being to use the handbrake to get the back end out rather than using the actual brakes. Taking advantage of engine braking that should unbalance the car but doesn't was another old favourite.

The list is a very, very long one.

Fully agree. Part of being quick in GTS is getting good at the game rather than getting good at driving.

 

[graveltrap]

These threads are always so all or nothing, just make one of the 3 daily races tuning friendly and be done with it...

 

[TetsuKobura]

The only FIA-sanctioned championship IRL that uses fixed tuning is a Kart series, where every driver uses a spec kart.

I do love when people say that the setups are equal. Yeah, maybe literally in the settings sheet, but they definitely aren't equal on track. Every time there's a Gr.1/Gr.3/Gr.4 weekly, or even a Nations version of a Gr. race, there's always one car dominating the time sheets. It was kind of laughable when the Nations Gr.3 race recently on Brands Hatch was dominated by 911 RSRs. Yeah, real equal alright. The only time everyone is inherently equal on track is when there's only one car to choose from and one setup.

The idea of multiple setups to choose from, or a race engineer being implemented to help with setups are both great ideas for Sport Mode. It would certainly add diversity to these races instead of it being metas, which is why I never touch races that aren't one-makes anymore.

 

[Petroperu]

I think PD wants everyone to be on the same level, hence the no customization.
Heck, they even got rid of H pattern manual because it was giving some a miniscule advantage.