Nine-Year-Old Accidentally Kills Instructor With Uzi

[niky]

EDIT: I'm not a black belt in anything, but there's a reason for the saying "bringing a knife to a gunfight"... a black belt versus a knife, though... you've got a chance.

Then again, if someone wants to kill you, has a gun, and shoots first, a gun doesn't deflect bullets, either.

-----

Let's see...

We let children practice on the bars in gymnastics when they're six. And yes, even with the mats, you can and will get broken bones.

We let them drive go-karts (which, if you've ever seen one flip over... which they do... you know are dangerous) at six. As well as mini-bikes, which won't crush you, at least, but are still dangerous.

We let them cook, using knives.

We let them take up martial arts, and learn how to kill people with their bare hands and feet. And sometimes swords.

Then there's archery. And fencing.

Kids practice in sports derived from forms of combat every single day. There's danger, yes... but given the proper training and precautions, it is much safer than the commute to the gym.

But proficiency comes with time. And a single visit to a Burger and Bullets joint isn't a lot of time to get used to a gun notorious for being uncontrollable in full auto mode. Again, the instructor should have known better.

 

[Legro]

We let them drive go-karts (which, if you've ever seen one flip over... which they do... you know are dangerous) at six.

After 9 years of karting experience I've never heard that happening. Also I don't think that any 6 years old would drive kart fast enough to flip over, at least I didn't. Of course it can happen, but it's extremely unlikely.

 

[niky]

I've heard of it happening (here) a few times. And typically it's in a race... like so:

 

[Michael88]

If you are worried about self defense take martial arts classes. I'm a black belt and I can use just about any object I find as a weapon I don't need a firearm with me.

Facepalm.




Also good luck with your black belt when you're being attacked with a knife, even Bruce Lee said that its next to impossible to dodge knife attacks.

 

[Legro]

I've heard of it happening (here) a few times. And typically it's in a race... like so:

That requires a lot of grip from tyre.

 

[Famine]

Okay @Custom878, let's do this again since you weren't happy with your own thought process leading you down the path to being fine with a 9 year old shooting a gun at a firing range...

Surely it's common sense to prevent a child from using a gun?

Why?

Because they most likely don't know what the hell they are doing?

And how does not allowing them to shoot guns on a private range under supervision help with that?

I'm not saying that it would solve that. I'm just saying that it's common sense to keep a dangerous object from them in most situations.

What situations would you say that common sense would regard as okay then?

So. What situations would you say that common sense would regard as okay to give a child a gun if common sense says you should keep a dangerous object like a gun, knife or spoon away from a child in most situations?

My list would be "At a firing range under supervision.". What would yours be?

You also haven't answered how preventing children from shooting guns on a private range under tuition would in any way combat the fact that "common sense" says you shouldn't let a child use a gun because they most likely won't know what the hell they are doing.

 

[Sage Ages]

Okay @Custom878, let's do this again since you weren't happy with your own thought process leading you down the path to being fine with a 9 year old shooting a gun at a firing range...

So. What situations would you say that common sense would regard as okay to give a child a gun if common sense says you should keep a dangerous object like a gun, knife or spoon away from a child in most situations?

My list would be "At a firing range under supervision.". What would yours be?

You also haven't answered how preventing children from shooting guns on a private range under tuition would in any way combat the fact that "common sense" says you shouldn't let a child use a gun because they most likely won't know what the hell they are doing.

Okay, I'm just going to say first that I am horrible at explaining things.

Basically, I was just saying reasons to why people usually don't want a child to use a firearm. You are saying that at a range under supervision would be fine because they would be learning how to handle one. Okay then. I can somewhat agree with that. What I am trying to say is that giving an automatic weapon to a child is a bad idea, even under supervision, for obvious reasons. Also, I should have said this before, but I think nine years old would be too young for learning out to use a firearm.

 

[Famine]

Okay, I'm just going to say first that I am horrible at explaining things.

That's fine - everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and discussing things helps us analyse what our own positions really are.

Basically, I was just saying reasons to why people usually don't want a child to use a firearm. You are saying that at a range under supervision would be fine because they would be learning how to handle one. Okay then. I can somewhat agree with that. What I am trying to say is that giving an automatic weapon to a child is a bad idea, even under supervision, for obvious reasons. Also, I should have said this before, but I think nine years old would be too young for learning out to use a firearm.

When is old enough? As we've said earlier, we commonly teach kids how to drive aged 4 - that's how we got Lewis Hamilton and Ayrton Senna - but they're not allowed to do it in public places. Max Verstappen will race for Toro Rosso next year, but he's not allowed to drive a car in public at all in his home country and won't be allowed to do it unless supervised until at least September 2015.

It's important to teach kids about dangerous things and how to use them properly, how not to abuse them and to have respect for them before they're suddenly allowed to go out and do it themselves in public. We do it with cars, alcohol, sex, horses - why not guns? Nine might be too young for you to let your kids on a firing range, but surely it depends on the child and the parent? I'd let my eldest daughter fire off a few rounds and she's 13. I'd have let her when she was 8 - we went and shot some handguns for what was my stag do - but she didn't show any interest and I'm not sure what the range's policy was because I didn't ask. Also they're a bit funny about giving Brits guns in case we start wearing red and coming by sea. She's a very smart, responsible girl and at 8 it wouldn't have been overwhelming for her.


Originally the uzi was on semi-auto and the girl shot that. The instructor seems to have moved onto full auto a bit quickly though - which is his mistake. It's not the girl's mistake, it's not the familiy's mistake and it's not the gun's mistake - it's also not a mistake just because she's 9 and the gun was fully auto. It was the instructor's mistake for putting her with too advanced a weapon for her skill level too quickly. And he paid for his own mistake.

I'm also a bit confused how and why the family who filmed their daughter accidentally killing a firearms instructor then uploaded it to Youtube. What, were they planning on showing it to relatives?


Incidentally, had no-one involved ever watched True Lies?

 

[dr_slump]

What if it was set to semi-auto? Would that make a difference?

I'd say the difference between keeping the trigger held down and continuously pulling it can't really be called neglectable. You usually don't simply start hammering the trigger just because something unexpeded happens.
Especially in surprising moments people, including kids, often tend to just stop doing whatever they're doing for a second or so, basically like them being in some state of shock. Often in combination with really sloppy and slow reactions.

Doesn't mean this couldn't be handled though. If you always ask yourself about the what ifs and the possible appropriate actions, many things could be avoided. Especially the surprising factor could be minimised as a result. Kids don't really do this, so an adult definitely has to look for everything. Can't tell how well he did this though.

Personally, I don't like the idea of 9 year olds firing SMGs like an UZI, but generally seen the question is always if she knew what was about to happen. To me it looks like she had never fired anything comparable and simply had no idea how to handle it.
Those one or two shots in Semi weren't really enough, unless the video doesn't tell the whole story, which is certainly possible.

-

Oh and he was standing in a really bad place, normally it's recommended to always stay a bit behind the person who's firing the gun.

 

[Sage Ages]

I wouldn't say that there would be any specific age. I'm just not comfortable with most nine year olds firing weapons.

She's a very smart, responsible girl and at 8 it wouldn't have been overwhelming for her.

That's okay then. It's just that at least from my experiences, most kids that age aren't really what I'd call responsible, but I can't speak for everyone so you're right.

 

[dr_slump]

She might very well be a nice girl trying to do things right whenever she can, but still, as a kid you just don't always see the whole picture.

 

[Famine]

She might very well be a nice girl trying to do things right whenever she can, but still, as a kid you just don't always see the whole picture.

And yet as parents, we're the best placed people to make that call.

 

[dr_slump]

Surely, I didn't expect to hear anything else.

And because I guess it would go off topic, I'll just leave it here.

 

[R.S]

Any person that could not handle a dangerous object should not be handling it. A young girl should not have use a fully automatic hand held gun (whether it be legal or illegal) unless she is clearly strong and experienced enough to handle the kickback when use at it's full ability, hoping the weapon will single shot only is stupid.
You don't let her use a (full size) chainsaw to help you cut the trees down the back do you. It's just common sense.

 

[Zenith]

If you are worried about self defense take martial arts classes. I'm a black belt and I can use just about any object I find as a weapon I don't need a firearm with me.

That's cute.

You versus significantly larger opponent. You lose. There is a reason why UFC and other professional fighting sports have weight classes. Size is by far the most significant factor.

You versus multiple opponents. You lose. Life isn't a Jason Bourne movie.

You versus armed attacker. You lose. See above.

How many Kung Fu movies have you watched to believe that martial arts are a viable means of defense?

 

[Roger the Horse]

Looks at title.

Nine year old.

Uzi.

Nine year old.

Uzi.

Israeli open-bolt submachine gun.

Nine year old.

Military grade weaponry.

In other news, having faith in mankind is generally a futile activity.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

You can in fact drive at half that age - or younger. How? In controlled environments under instruction. That's how we get racing drivers...

I started driving manual car at the age of 12 under my old man supervision, doing figure of eight on a empty grassy field. At half age would be karts, right ? I barely can fully depressed the clutch on a 1980 Toyota rwd sedan when I was 12 For gun, I would not let kids that can't hold firm a handgun and handle it safely - at least understand the risk, maybe 6 years old could do it ?

 

[MadFlavour]

That's cute.

You versus significantly larger opponent. You lose. There is a reason why UFC and other professional fighting sports have weight classes. Size is by far the most significant factor.

You versus multiple opponents. You lose. Life isn't a Jason Bourne movie.

You versus armed attacker. You lose. See above.

How many Kung Fu movies have you watched to believe that martial arts are a viable means of defense?

Good point, Purple belt in Jui jitsu but I don't go around trying to toss and submit guys that are 100lbs heavier lol

 

[wfooshee]

It's ridiculous, people shouldn't feel as if they are entitled to use or own firearms.

See, the Constitution that forms our government explicitly states that we are. Therefore, we do feel rather entitled to own and use firearms. I have several myself, although nothing fully-auto. (That needs a level of licensing I'm not interested in having.)

The mistake here wasn't letting the 9-year-old handle the Uzi. The mistake here wasn't letting her fire it in full-auto. She'd fired several rounds semi-auto before the instructor flipped the selector.

The mistake was keeping a full load in it the first time she fired. Even semi-auto, I never hand someone a gun they've not fired before with more than three rounds in it. With three rounds, she still would have lost control of the weapon, but it would be empty almost instantly. Had this instructor observed a three round load limit, he would be instructing someone else this very day.

 

[zzz_pt]

Being outisde USA, it's almost disturbing to see how the great majoraty of americans react to this story or any other story involving guns.

 

[LeMansAid]

Being outisde USA, it's almost disturbing to see how the great majoraty of americans react to this story or any other story involving guns.

Perhaps a case in point from the Washington naval yard shooting thread:

Is it wrong that I care more about the stupidity from the anti-gun lobby that will likely follow this event, than the event itself?

 

[Carlos]

Being outisde USA, it's almost disturbing to see how the great majoraty of americans react to this story or any other story involving guns.

It is disturbing, also to see how hard people try to defend this 'right'.

 

[Zenith]

Being outisde USA, it's almost disturbing to see how the great majoraty of americans react to this story or any other story involving guns.

Yes, why aren't we all buying into the hysteria and conjecture like civilized folk?

Silly Americans, thinking that idiots will be idiots and will find one way or another to get themselves killed. When will they learn to use rare occurrences to judge an entire group of the population?

It is disturbing, also to see how hard people try to defend this 'right'.

If you'd like to try your hand at discussing it with those of us who commit such a disturbing act, we have a thread for that.

 

[Carlos]

Yes, why aren't we all buying into the hysteria and conjecture like civilized folk?

Silly Americans, thinking that idiots will be idiots and will find one way or another to get themselves killed. When will they learn to use rare occurrences to judge an entire group of the population?



If you'd like to try your hand at discussing it with those of us who commit such a disturbing act, we have a thread for that.

I really want to but I'm afraid I would only get flamed on because I can't explain myself well enough in English and I have the feeling it would be just like telling a believer God doesn't exist.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Just focusing on the incident itself: I too think a child shouldn't get its hands on an UZI, simply because that gun itself is a dangerous piece of crap. I haven't seen any videos or other stuff, but if it was the instructor's fault, everything else doesn't matter.

Personally, I don't think that showing kids a gun range and teaching 'em how to operate a (suitable) firearm safely is bad, I do think that the gun culture in the USA and many people who follow it are dangerous though, but for other reasons.

I feel sorry for the kid, she'll be traumatized for her entire life, only because her parents wanted that she fires a damn UZI.

 

[Zenith]

I really want to but I'm afraid I would only get flamed on because I can't explain myself well enough in English and I have the feeling it would be just like telling a believer God doesn't exist.

No, it would be just like telling people who have an opinion supported by data and reasoning that you have a differing opinion. You know, a discussion.

Likening a pro gun argument to a belief in god suggests that the argument relies on blind faith rather than facts and logic. If you actually read the thread I linked, you'll find quite the opposite.

 

[Joel]

I really want to but I'm afraid I would only get flamed on because I can't explain myself well enough in English and I have the feeling it would be just like telling a believer God doesn't exist.

Handguns are overwhelmingly what make up gun deaths in the US. Focusing on freak accidents at a shooting range or mass shootings is the equivalent to campaigning that something needs to be done about air safety after an airliner crash but being indifferent to road safety which kills many more people.

Excessive speed and alcohol are factors in over 60% of car accidents. Why does anyone need a car that can go over 120km/h? When would anyone ever need to go over 120km/h on the road? I know that people use them on private race tracks, but selling cars that are basically purpose built race cars when speed is a factor in nearly a third of car accidents seems to be incredibly irresponsible. Perhaps the world needs to reevaluate the collateral damage of our "speeding culture", where we think it's OK that people can buy cars that are purpose built to exceed speed limits.

On that note, why do we allow alcohol? Sure some people use it responsibly but we could reduce car accidents by 39 percent if we outlawed alcohol, surely your "right to get drunk" doesn't supercede someone's right to live, no?

 

[Exorcet]

I feel sorry for the kid, she'll be traumatized for her entire life, only because her parents wanted that she fires a damn UZI.

I kind of feel that if she was on the range shooting the gun, there's a chance she wanted to do it herself. I've not heard of many cases where parents go around forcing kids to shoot and I do know for a fact that there are children that like to shoot.

I also have to wonder if the attention generated by the event is worse than the event itself. I'm sure that no one would want to go through what she did, but she did nothing wrong and there isn't really anything for her to feel guilty about. She was a bystander to a sad accident.

 

[G.T.Ace]

I kind of feel that if she was on the range shooting the gun, there's a chance she wanted to do it herself. I've not heard of many cases where parents go around forcing kids to shoot and I do know for a fact that there are children that like to shoot.

I also have to wonder if the attention generated by the event is worse than the event itself. I'm sure that no one would want to go through what she did, but she did nothing wrong and there isn't really anything for her to feel guilty about. She was a bystander to a sad accident.

Okay, maybe my sentence wasn't the best (and yeah, I was interested in firearms myself since my kindergarten age),
I didn't mean that someone forced her, but simply allowing your kid to handle an UZI is quite dumb imho.

I agree about your second paragraph too, not her fault.

 

[Jay.]

I can't really fathom why that man was teaching a 9-year old to fire a weapon in the first place. What was she going to do with that know-how? It just doesn't seem to me like the type of thing that should be taught at such a young age in a safe, civilized country like the US.

Obviously the parents were going to use the child to guard the family home against intruders.

I'm guessing that it was a novelty holiday thing. You know, you pay $150 and you get a ride-along in a rally car. But here, you pay $X and get to fire a machine pistol.

Only my personal opinion...
Firearms as a whole have been developed with one main objective use - to kill people or animals.
They are not something that should be toyed with for fun, especially not by a nine year old.
If you want to play soldiers then take up paintball or laser-tag.
I only read the first page of this thread, felt too angered to read more reasoning arguments, and have to say that I am ashamed to be a part of a community where so many seem to think that this sort of behavior is acceptable.