Nine-Year-Old Accidentally Kills Instructor With Uzi

[Carlos]

No, it would be just like telling people who have an opinion supported by data and reasoning that you have a differing opinion. You know, a discussion.

Likening a pro gun argument to a belief in god suggests that the argument relies on blind faith rather than facts and logic. If you actually read the thread I linked, you'll find quite the opposite.

I can't stand by any facts than just my feeling you shouldn't need them. I think the situation in the US about guns is wrong, the easiness you can get them by for example. Over here it's pretty special if you own a gun because you have to go through check up and go to the shooting yard every few weeks. You can only take it home after I thought it was a year and then gun and ammo can't be in the same safe. We don't get any motivation by gun stores. I know for sure if I grew up between gun stores I had so many of them because I have to admit they are cool. But I don't and in my world/view as we live here I don't need them. I have to agree with @Noob616 my car doesn't need to go harder than 130kmh, but it's fun. Maybe weird I'm saying this because you probably think guns are fun too, but we already have the car fun and the consequences that come with them. Though I can only talk from personal view and I think your ways of living and the situation is so different it makes some sense you would want to own a gun. I feel it would be for defense and entertainment and here it's for entertainment only.

 

[zzz_pt]

Handguns are overwhelmingly what make up gun deaths in the US. Focusing on freak accidents at a shooting range or mass shootings is the equivalent to campaigning that something needs to be done about air safety after an airliner crash but being indifferent to road safety which kills many more people.

Excessive speed and alcohol are factors in over 60% of car accidents. Why does anyone need a car that can go over 120km/h? When would anyone ever need to go over 120km/h on the road? I know that people use them on private race tracks, but selling cars that are basically purpose built race cars when speed is a factor in nearly a third of car accidents seems to be incredibly irresponsible. Perhaps the world needs to reevaluate the collateral damage of our "speeding culture", where we think it's OK that people can buy cars that are purpose built to exceed speed limits.

On that note, why do we allow alcohol? Sure some people use it responsibly but we could reduce car accidents by 39 percent if we outlawed alcohol, surely your "right to get drunk" doesn't supercede someone's right to live, no?

That's why we have traffic laws. In case you don't know, it's illegal to drive drunk and it's illegal to drive at +120Km/h.

That comparison really works against your case. Because you people don't want any serious regulations on guns as we have for road traffic since the 19th century.

 

[niky]

Minors are not allowed to own or carry guns in Arizona, where this accident happened.

They are only allowed to handle them under strict supervision, on ranges such as the one where this accident happened.

Which is remarkably similar to the way that minors are actually allowed to drive on the racetrack, but not on the street.

-

Also: You can drive a car in a populated area. You shoot a gun in a populated area, and you will go to jail, right quick... even if it was just "a warning shot."

 

[Crash]

That's why we have traffic laws. In case you don't know, it's illegal to drive drunk and it's illegal to drive at +120Km/h.

That comparison really works against your case. Because you people don't want any serious regulations on guns as we have for road traffic since the 19th century.

You clearly are uninformed about US gun laws. It is illegal to purposefully shoot a person other than for legitimate defense purposes. And it is illegal to randomly shoot a gun in public, as @niky pointed out.

You propose that no one should have guns because there is a tiny percentage of people who abuse them and use them irresponsibly and illegally despite all the laws banning such usage, and @Noob616 is comparing that with a scenario where people are irresponsibly and illegally using their vehicles despite laws banning such usage. That comparison is more than fair.

Ban all cars that go more than 120km/h and ban all alcohol!

 

[wfooshee]

America did ban alcohol once. That went well, didn't it? The greatest increase in organized crime in the planet's history!

Back on-topic. Let's not confuse the fact that we Americans have the right to own firearms with the perception of some that we are a society of gun-crazed Rambos walking around with 3 or four pistols on our person, a couple of bandoliers for spare ammo, and a rifle hanging from its strap. Let's also not confuse the right to ownership with a requirement to own.

I would venture a guess that most Americans have never even seen a gun in person except on the hip of a policeman. It's not the Wild West over here, despite what you see in the news and on TV. I personally have gone days on end without handling or even seeing a gun! Why, I walk the streets all the time with no fear of being gunned down.

 

[Exorcet]

Firearms as a whole have been developed with one main objective use - to kill people or animals.

Even if true, why does it matter? No one goes to a shooting range to kill anything. Household cleaners that no one argues are meant to kill are potentially dangerous as well, but does the reason of manufacture have any weight whatsoever on whether or not you want to give it to a 3 year old to play with? I hope not.

They are not something that should be toyed with for fun

They're far from unique in being potentially harmful entertainment. They also aren't all that dangerous. She was not the first nor the youngest to use the weapon. This is the one and only case where the weapon discharged in an unsafe manner. It's the equivalent of taking kids to mini golf and being unlucky enough to witness the one in a million case where someone is fatally struck by a golf club/ball.

especially not by a nine year old.

I stand by 9 being more than old enough to use firearms. There are younger shooters and they can be mature enough to handle a weapon safely. Age limits are arbitrary and always indirect and flawed methods of judging someone's ability. I think we should try to avoid them as much as possible.

If you want to play soldiers then take up paintball or laser-tag.

Who is playing soldier? They are using guns on a range. Gun =/=soldier, gun =/= kill.

I only read the first page of this thread, felt too angered to read more reasoning arguments, and have to say that I am ashamed to be a part of a community where so many seem to think that this sort of behavior is acceptable.

And there is the real problem. "I'm mad, I'm not going to think, but I'm certainly going to propose 'solutions' anyway"

That is unacceptable. A perfectly safe recreational activity for kids is fine.

 

[Northstar]

Sadly I see this type of thing happen all the time, granted it's usually a parent letting their child use an ATV, dirt bike or snowmobile that's way overpowered for their skill level and it ends badly. In other words, this kind of thing is hardly limited to guns.

Unfortunately, this girl will have to live with taking someone else's life and I just hope that since she is so young she can still live a fairly normal life and not blame herself.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Obviously the parents were going to use the child to guard the family home against intruders.



Only my personal opinion...
Firearms as a whole have been developed with one main objective use - to kill people or animals.
They are not something that should be toyed with for fun, especially not by a nine year old.
If you want to play soldiers then take up paintball or laser-tag.
I only read the first page of this thread, felt too angered to read more reasoning arguments, and have to say that I am ashamed to be a part of a community where so many seem to think that this sort of behavior is acceptable.

So solider in the only method? You seem to not know all that much about guns from what you've said and then you bring emotion into this as well...

 

[Jay.]

Who is playing soldier? They are using guns on a range. Gun =/=soldier, gun =/= kill.

That is unacceptable. A perfectly safe recreational activity for kids is fine.

And that kid killed another being. Yeah, very safe. Guns should not be considered recreational.

So solider in the only method? You seem to not know all that much about guns from what you've said and then you bring emotion into this as well...

Yes it's emotional. See below.

Unfortunately, this girl will have to live with taking someone else's life and I just hope that since she is so young she can still live a fairly normal life and not blame herself.

I would NEVER let my daughter be put in such a 'perfectly safe recreational' position like this.

 

[Famine]

And that kid killed another being. Yeah, very safe.

Happens all the time with other activities you wouldn't automatically brand as anything other than safe.

Guns should not be considered recreational.

Why?

Yes it's emotional.

That doesn't mean you have to react emotionally - and irrationally.

I would NEVER let my daughter be put in such a 'perfectly safe recreational' position like this.

And that's your choice for your children. Do not presuppose that your methods of parenting your children are infallible and should be the de facto method of parenting for other people's children - and indeed other people as a whole.

 

[Jay.]

@Famine I didn't comment to start a debate or argument, as that would be pointless.

Only my personal opinion...
Firearms as a whole have been developed with one main objective use - to kill people or animals.
They are not something that should be toyed with for fun, especially not by a nine year old.
If you want to play soldiers then take up paintball or laser-tag.

 

[Famine]

@Famine I didn't comment to start a debate or argument, as that would be pointless.

And yet here we are.

The "one main objective use" has been debunked time and time again - and the fact is that they are something that can be toyed with for fun if you do so safely, like so many other things. Including cars. If you don't do it safely you end up at serious risk of injury or death, like so many other things. Including cars.

It's odd that the overwhelming majority of guns and bullets (in excess of 99.99% for the former, incalculably in excess of it for the latter) are used recreationally and cause no harm to anyone or anything, but you're encouraging the use of pretend firearms against other people in lieu of this activity...

 

[Jay.]

If somebody wants fun shooting at targets then at least with paintball and laser-tag etc you're not likely to kill somebody if you miss-fire.

 

[wfooshee]

We get it, you don't want to play with guns. You've yet to present a reason other than "Ewww! Ewwww! Yuck!!!!" It's quite annoying to be lectured to by someone with absolutely no knowledge of the subject.

And your paintball/laser-tag reference simply shows how little you understand the subject.

But as I said before, the issue at hand, IMHO, is not the use of the gun by the girl, but the competence of the "instructor." I use quotes because I really know nothing of his experience level. Fact is, though, that he placed himself at unacceptable risk and paid the ultimate price for it.

Very easy procedure that should have been followed would have been to load three rounds for her first full-auto experience. After seeing the gun move out of control just as it went empty, he could have made the decision to postpone full-auto for her until she was stronger, or to continue with limited loading to build her experience after she learned what to expect.

 

[Famine]

If somebody wants fun shooting at targets then at least with paintball and laser-tag etc you're not likely to kill somebody if you miss-fire.

If somebody wants fun driving fast then at least with remote control cars etc you're not likely to kill somebody if you crash.

It's not a risk you would choose, but it is one that others would - I have no idea why you would want to stop them. Check the back of a ticket to a motorsports event some time.

 

[Lucas]

I'm not so worried about things like "she's too young to properly handle the uzi". I'm worried about why would anyone think they should give a child a gun. Or why the child would want to use a gun in the first place.

Then again, I live here and can only name five guns out the top of my head.



EDIT: This sums up my thoughts on the accident:

It's a bad idea to let a nine-year old with absolutely no experience fire a fully-automatic weapon... just as it's a bad idea to let anyone with little experience fire an Uzi.

EDIT: Also:

Since you've attended public schools, I'm going to assume you're already proficient with small arms. So, we'll start you off with something a little more advanced.

[hands Bart a grenade launcher]

 

[Northstar]

And that kid killed another being. Yeah, very safe. Guns should not be considered recreational.

When taking the proper precautions (those not taken in the case at hand) I would say competitive shooting is much safer than pretty much any other sport children can participate in. Hell, if they're good they can even get some Olympic hardware (It's been included since they brought the games back in 1896).

I would NEVER let my daughter be put in such a 'perfectly safe recreational' position like this.

Than you should just go full stop and keep her in a bubble inside her room as she's just as likely to get seriously hurt playing any other sport or activity.

 

[Famine]

Imgur is relevant:

 

[Exorcet]

And that kid killed another being. Yeah, very safe. Guns should not be considered recreational.

At least it's not as dangerous as water. Not even adults can handle water safely

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/woman-dies-after-water-drinking-contest/

Ban water. It should not be considered recreational because one person died from water one time.

I would NEVER let my daughter be put in such a 'perfectly safe recreational' position like this.

I can understand that completely. Some people have sons/daughters who are fairly skilled shooters and would not have an issue with the weapon though.



She has some experience at least, she knows how to handle the trigger properly.



Did not start at six obviously. You don't get gun proficiency like this by being barred from using guns.

I'm not so worried about things like "she's too young to properly handle the uzi". I'm worried about why would anyone think they should give a child a gun. Or why the child would want to use a gun in the first place.

For similar reasons you would give them a toy or send them to play a sport. The same goes for why the child would want to use the gun. About the only reason I'd think that the child would not want to use the gun would be irrational fear. Guns aren't fairly simple. Point them in a safe direction and you have a good time. Most people will understand that from a young age. Kids don't need to put into their own little safety wrapped world, that can actually have many negative consequences. Different people will also be different, so what's suitable for one person now might not be suitatabe for another and vice versa.

EDIT: This sums up my thoughts on the accident:



EDIT: Also:

Yes. With a bit more planned out learning curve, this very likely would have been an exceptionally boring event.

 

[SniperRed3]

Aged 15 I was shooting shotguns guns and semi automatic rifles with cadets You get it drummed into yousafety and you have to prove that you can strip the weapon, carry out safety drills and weapon checks. Correct ways to stand with the weapons. ONly until you reach 15 can you fire the semi auto rifle below that you have to use a 22. bolt action
At the end of the day guns inflict damage and you need to be in total control and I'm sure some children have the control required but alot don't and people are hurt

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

And that kid killed another being. Yeah, very safe. Guns should not be considered recreational.

Why? As others have said people get killed in many recreational affairs. I've seen kids have to be helicoptered from Dirt bike tracks during races due to horrible accidents. Some have died and weren't hit by their own bike at times. So if we should ban the use or teaching of guns to kids why should we allow any unsafe things? It's great you don't want your kid to do this but not everyone should have too.

Yes it's emotional. See below.[/quote]

That tells me nothing other than you reacting to a freak accident (that I also agree shouldn't have happened as a gun owner) with an emotional knee jerk as if this happens all the time. You compound the issue with also not having any knowledge about guns from what it would look like which further shows an irrational, emotional viewer.

I would NEVER let my daughter be put in such a 'perfectly safe recreational' position like this.[/QUOTE]

@Famine I didn't comment to start a debate or argument, as that would be pointless.

You saying "In my opinion" , everyone has their opinion that they think they're entitled to in some form or another but yet again this isn't a blog it's a forum. You don't just insert your view to the world and declare that you shouldn't have to argue it when it's obvious people wont agree. In fact why post on a form if all you plan to do is not have a discussion of some form?

 

[Tornado]

Imgur is relevant:

​

Also get a good headstart on learning physics and geometry.

 

[Keef]

Imgur is relevant:

​

Humor aside, crew served weapons really ARE safer because children simply can't figure out how to use them on their own. They're honestly safer for everybody because accidental firings are virtually impossible.

 

[BobK]

If somebody wants fun shooting at targets then at least with paintball and laser-tag etc you're not likely to kill somebody if you miss-fire.

Likewise, if someone wants fun driving a car then it should be limited to 5mph you're not likely to kill somebody if you miss-drive.

 

[Imari]

Or why the child would want to use a gun in the first place.

You may have missed it, but there's been a recent invention called television. On it, children can see all sorts of people using guns. These people are generally presented as being heroes, or at least pretty cool. Children often naturally wish to emulate this, and many of them would be pretty excited to have an opportunity to use a gun.

Also, guns are an interesting and exciting piece of technology in their own right. Target shooting is just plain fun, for those that get into it. It may not be for everyone, but neither is underwater basket weaving.

 

[LeMansAid]

At a certain point risks become unreasonable, and in a child/guardian situation, child abuse comes in to the picture. I doubt that "Ok, you can play Russian roulette. But remember, only pull the trigger five times." would be acceptable parenting to many. Equally, letting a child eat or not eat to the point of being life-threateningly fat or emaciated, should be considered child abuse, in my book.

The instructor was not up to the job, and the parents are responsible for the choice to use him, and presumably for the choice of weapon(s). The net result of their negligence may well be a daughter scarred for life.

To me, at their root, these types of incidents smack of people making statements of pride and arrogance, sometimes with a flavour of a big "screw you" to anti-gun people. When a person acts based on the position held by their detractors, they have willing rescinded parts of their freedoms.

This isn't about there not being enough laws, but more about there being too many imbeciles.

 

[niky]

If somebody wants fun shooting at targets then at least with paintball and laser-tag etc you're not likely to kill somebody if you miss-fire.

It is extremely dangerous for children to use paintball guns unsupervised. The high pressures used mean that injury is possible if you hit an unprotected area from close range. And you can also (obviously) permanently blind someone if you hit them in the eye.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=176894

Paintball guns are dangerous. And they should be treated with the same respect and care as actual guns.

Laser Tag... at least you won't go more than temporarily blind (the lights aren't strong enough).

Of course, Laser Tag isn't nearly the same as actual shooting. Shooting at a range involves a lot more than simply looking down a sight and pressing on a trigger. There's techniques to learn, such as how to properly "pull" a trigger (if you're pulling, you're doing it wrong), dealing with kickback, compensating for wind, compensating for gravity...

All of which are part of what makes shooting a sport. Granted, it's a dangerous one... but that's why it's done at controlled shooting ranges.

 

[Lucas]

You may have missed it, but there's been a recent invention called television. On it, children can see all sorts of people using guns. These people are generally presented as being heroes, or at least pretty cool. Children often naturally wish to emulate this, and many of them would be pretty excited to have an opportunity to use a gun.

Over here, nobody considers cool to use guns. If you want to point at someone, you use paintball, because that's enough for everyone here. That's what satisfies them. I have never met someone who said "hey, I want to shoot a real gun". It's not a discussion about safety, btw. It's just I don't see the fun of it. Not going to stop you from having fun, though.

 

[Imari]

Over here, nobody considers cool to use guns. If you want to point at someone, you use paintball, because that's enough for everyone here. That's what satisfies them. I have never met someone who said "hey, I want to shoot a real gun". It's not a discussion about safety, btw. It's just I don't see the fun of it. Not going to stop you from having fun, though.

I like how you can speak with authority for an entire country. I assume you're only speaking for your country and not an entire continent, because that would be even more hilarious.

I'll give you a little hint: Your opinions are likely not identical to the opinions of the rest of your country. The majority may well think as you do, but I'll bet anything you like that Argentina has gun clubs. Where you have gun clubs, you have people who enjoy guns for sport.

So actually, you're talking rubbish. You don't understand the fun of it, but don't pretend that your entire country is afflicted with the same lack of empathy.

 

[Famine]

If you want to point at someone, you use paintball

I should hope so too. You should never point a firearm at someone unless you are happy to kill them and accept all the consequences that come from that - and that should be a situation of necessity, not desire.