Nissan skyline fan club

[RazorGTR]

Cheers SkylineGTR_guy

A reliable 800 hp is a lot to ask out of any car. Usually when you start to push small displacement motors that hard they break down much more rapdily. That is a given though.

The block can handle it easily but a short list of what could be done.

Standard block
Tomi 286 in/ex cams, springs, retainers, lifters.
Ported head
Tomi cam gears
HKS metal head gasket
HKs, JE, or Tomi forged Pistons and ring set
Carilla rods with ARP rod bolts
N1 crank shaft
Trust oil pump with extension sleeve
HKS extractors
HKS 28-35 or 30-37 turbos (high mount)
Apexi front mount
Trust plenum
Single thottle body from and Infinity Q45
Sard 850cc injectors
OS giken A gear set for the transmission
tripple plate clutch
Trust flywheel
HKS front axels
twin apexi high volumne fuel pumps feeding a surge tank
Nismo adjustable raising rate fuel pressure regulator
Motec M8 complete engine management
HKS torque split controller

That should do it

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

Originally posted by RazorGTR
Cheers SkylineGTR_guy

A reliable 800 hp is a lot to ask out of any car. Usually when you start to push small displacement motors that hard they break down much more rapdily. That is a given though.

The block can handle it easily but a short list of what could be done.

Standard block
Tomi 286 in/ex cams, springs, retainers, lifters.
Ported head
Tomi cam gears
HKS metal head gasket
HKs, JE, or Tomi forged Pistons and ring set
Carilla rods with ARP rod bolts
N1 crank shaft
Trust oil pump with extension sleeve
HKS extractors
HKS 28-35 or 30-37 turbos (high mount)
Apexi front mount
Trust plenum
Single thottle body from and Infinity Q45
Sard 850cc injectors
OS giken A gear set for the transmission
tripple plate clutch
Trust flywheel
HKS front axels
twin apexi high volumne fuel pumps feeding a surge tank
Nismo adjustable raising rate fuel pressure regulator
Motec M8 complete engine management
HKS torque split controller

That should do it

and how many years would i have to eat nothing but ramen noodles to afford that? seriously how much would all of that cost? parts only labor I can take care of, I have a few friends at some local shops that can probably install that stuff for pretty cheap.

 

[RazorGTR]

UMMMMM well since I am at work, HAHAHAH dunno exactly but it would be well over $20K USD. Let me see about getting some prices and see how good my guess is

 

[RazorGTR]

In the mean time I will slot prices in as I know them here in New Zealand. Just roughly halve them for US denerios


A reliable 800 hp is a lot to ask out of any car. Usually when you start to push small displacement motors that hard they break down much more rapdily. That is a given though.

The block can handle it easily but a short list of what could be done.

Standard block - Should alread have that
Tomi 286 in/ex cams, springs, retainers, lifters.
Ported head - $2,800 as quoted
Tomi cam gears - $300 each
HKS metal head gasket - $650
HKs, JE, or Tomi forged Pistons and ring set - $1,850 JE, $2,700 HKS, $3,100 Tomi
Carilla rods with ARP rod bolts - $3300
N1 crank shaft - $10,000
Trust oil pump with extension sleeve - $1,200
HKS extractors
HKS 28-35 or 30-37 turbos (high mount) - @ $3500 each turbo
Apexi front mount - $4,500
Trust plenum
Single thottle body from and Infinity Q45 - $475 second hand
Sard 850cc injectors - $350 each (X6)
OS giken A gear set for the transmission - $6,500 including syncro kit
tripple plate clutch - $3,300
Trust flywheel
HKS front axels - $800 each
twin apexi high volumne fuel pumps feeding a surge tank -$650 each (x3)
Nismo adjustable raising rate fuel pressure regulator -$400
Motec M8 complete engine management -$8,300 complete
HKS torque split controller

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

Originally posted by RazorGTR
In the mean time I will slot prices in as I know them here in New Zealand. Just roughly halve them for US denerios


A reliable 800 hp is a lot to ask out of any car. Usually when you start to push small displacement motors that hard they break down much more rapdily. That is a given though.

The block can handle it easily but a short list of what could be done.

Standard block - Should alread have that
Tomi 286 in/ex cams, springs, retainers, lifters.
Ported head - $2,800 as quoted
Tomi cam gears - $300 each
HKS metal head gasket - $650
HKs, JE, or Tomi forged Pistons and ring set - $1,850 JE, $2,700 HKS, $3,100 Tomi
Carilla rods with ARP rod bolts - $3300
N1 crank shaft - $10,000
Trust oil pump with extension sleeve - $1,200
HKS extractors
HKS 28-35 or 30-37 turbos (high mount) - @ $3500 each turbo
Apexi front mount - $4,500
Trust plenum
Single thottle body from and Infinity Q45 - $475 second hand
Sard 850cc injectors - $350 each (X6)
OS giken A gear set for the transmission - $6,500 including syncro kit
tripple plate clutch - $3,300
Trust flywheel
HKS front axels - $800 each
twin apexi high volumne fuel pumps feeding a surge tank -$650 each (x3)
Nismo adjustable raising rate fuel pressure regulator -$400
Motec M8 complete engine management -$8,300 complete
HKS torque split controller

cool thanks! What about ignition components? or will the stock ones be able to handle all that? also at 800 HP what kind of quarter mile times can I expect form an R34?

 

[RazorGTR]

The ignition system is fine even fo C16 racing fuel but plugs are bloody expensive to run that.

I've seen 800hp GTR's that are stripped down for racing run 9's

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

Originally posted by RazorGTR
The ignition system is fine even fo C16 racing fuel but plugs are bloody expensive to run that.

I've seen 800hp GTR's that are stripped down for racing run 9's

I plan to keep the interior completley intact. I think that stripping the interior is rather pointless...I still want my car to look nice...If I need the car to lose weight I could put in racing seats and take out the spare...

 

[RazorGTR]

In a fully bodied car maybe upper 9's. That is a lot of weight to get moving reliably. Most problems will be in the gearbox, axles and diffs.

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

Originally posted by RazorGTR
In a fully bodied car maybe upper 9's. That is a lot of weight to get moving reliably. Most problems will be in the gearbox, axles and diffs.

I was reading something in one of my magazines about a Top Secret R34 with a 10,000 dollar gearbox these companies have way too much free time and money....

 

[GSS]

Isn't that list a bit tooooo short, Razor? Even if it is just for engine mods.

 

[RazorGTR]

Originally posted by GSS
Isn't that list a bit tooooo short, Razor? Even if it is just for engine mods.

Other than belts and hoses not really. I am in fact going a bit overboard just for overall long term reliability. I chose bigger than needed turbos to keep the boost pressure down, a front mount that is over kill just to keep intake charge temps as low as possible.
In all honesty you could use the factory crank (though at the edge of max power it can handle), factory fuel rail, water pump, no swirl pot just one extreme large fuel pump, don't need the cam gears really, or the front axles. Again I went over what would really be needed for a street car. If you intend on a lot of hard launches on a drag strip or laps at a local circut you would be happy to have gone the extra to be safe.

 

[RazorGTR]

Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
I was reading something in one of my magazines about a Top Secret R34 with a 10,000 dollar gearbox these companies have way too much free time and money....

That would be 10K USD, infact that boxe would be 22k here in New Zealand. The same box Crodyon's and Heat Treatment's cars use.

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

Originally posted by RazorGTR
That would be 10K USD, infact that boxe would be 22k here in New Zealand. The same box Crodyon's and Heat Treatment's cars use.

what was it an Os Giken? I'm pretty sure thats what it was....
What does the skyline get in the feul economy area? Is it too bad?

 

[RazorGTR]

It is a complete gear set including shafts for a manual box.

It depends on which car and how you drive. I've gotten really good and really bad milage, but have to sit and work it out and too tried right now.

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

Originally posted by RazorGTR
It is a complete gear set including shafts for a manual box.

It depends on which car and how you drive. I've gotten really good and really bad milage, but have to sit and work it out and too tried right now.

well I figured that how you drive would have a big effect on it. Doesn't the skyline respond differently depending on how the driver drives? I heard somewhere that it can "learn" your driving style and change settings on the car for better performance. Is that true and if so, how does it work? WOuld you have to reset the computer when getting it so it can learn your style or does it adapt itself on a regular basis?

lol thanks for the help.

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

ooops wrong thread....lol

 

[RazorGTR]

Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
well I figured that how you drive would have a big effect on it. Doesn't the skyline respond differently depending on how the driver drives? I heard somewhere that it can "learn" your driving style and change settings on the car for better performance. Is that true and if so, how does it work? WOuld you have to reset the computer when getting it so it can learn your style or does it adapt itself on a regular basis?

lol thanks for the help.

Yes and no. Maybe not to the extent you are probably refering to. The factory ecu does learn from the moment the engine fires up. It is constantly looking for detonation, throttle postion, intake air temps, etc. It then adjusts the timing accordingly, well retards it more like it. Once it retards it, the ecu will not advance it back later. Hence the reasoning may reset their ecu's by disconnecting the battery and letting it sit over night or a for a while.

By doing that the ecu will reset back to the original factory spec settings. This is quite a noticiable difference, and one that is supported by actual dyno runs. As an example base ignition time is 16 deg advanced at idle in an R32 GTR. Drive the car for say two days and check it again. You will see it has not moved. But wait you just said it will retard it? Whats up with that? Well it has but you can't see it at idle or at an unloaded given rpm range. Put the car on the dyno and rev it o say 3,600 rpms under a load making full boost. Now if you have done that with the base ignition map reset at factory you would see it at about 14 deg advanced. Now do the same again after two days of normal driving around town. Not giving the car grief. The new result will be about 12 degs give or take 1deg. Give the car heaps when it is hot and recheck and wow you could be down as low as 9 deg! That is a heap of power loss and a major reason guys just turn the boost up. What in fact they are accomplishing is making power through boost instead of ignition timing.

As mentioned once the factory ecu begins to retard the timing to stop detonation it can not bring timng back into it.

Now because my ecu is chipped, my tuner is able to remove that feature within reason. It is still there though by setting a limit on the amount of timing reduction I don't lose as much power, yet I know if I reset the ecu at some stage I would proably gain another 16-20hp at the wheels. I say that due to the amount of advanced timnig my car is running. See I am making power with timing instead of boost. Hence the reason I can run low boost and not over stress the turbos, yet still produce as much or more power than a someone with an identical car running 5 psi of boost more than me. Mine is set to 23 deg advanced just for the record.

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

Originally posted by RazorGTR
Yes and no. Maybe not to the extent you are probably refering to. The factory ecu does learn from the moment the engine fires up. It is constantly looking for detonation, throttle postion, intake air temps, etc. It then adjusts the timing accordingly, well retards it more like it. Once it retards it, the ecu will not advance it back later. Hence the reasoning may reset their ecu's by disconnecting the battery and letting it sit over night or a for a while.

By doing that the ecu will reset back to the original factory spec settings. This is quite a noticiable difference, and one that is supported by actual dyno runs. As an example base ignition time is 16 deg advanced at idle in an R32 GTR. Drive the car for say two days and check it again. You will see it has not moved. But wait you just said it will retard it? Whats up with that? Well it has but you can't see it at idle or at an unloaded given rpm range. Put the car on the dyno and rev it o say 3,600 rpms under a load making full boost. Now if you have done that with the base ignition map reset at factory you would see it at about 14 deg advanced. Now do the same again after two days of normal driving around town. Not giving the car grief. The new result will be about 12 degs give or take 1deg. Give the car heaps when it is hot and recheck and wow you could be down as low as 9 deg! That is a heap of power loss and a major reason guys just turn the boost up. What in fact they are accomplishing is making power through boost instead of ignition timing.

As mentioned once the factory ecu begins to retard the timing to stop detonation it can not bring timng back into it.

Now because my ecu is chipped, my tuner is able to remove that feature within reason. It is still there though by setting a limit on the amount of timing reduction I don't lose as much power, yet I know if I reset the ecu at some stage I would proably gain another 16-20hp at the wheels. I say that due to the amount of advanced timnig my car is running. See I am making power with timing instead of boost. Hence the reason I can run low boost and not over stress the turbos, yet still produce as much or more power than a someone with an identical car running 5 psi of boost more than me. Mine is set to 23 deg advanced just for the record.

is there a specific reason it can't change the timing back? Also how often would you want to reset the ECU? Would doing so everytime you install a new modification be a good idea or should it be left alone? Also with regards to the suspension, is it adjustable from the factory? If so does it have to be changed externally or is it computer controlled like the system found on ferraris and some of the new mercedes? I'd also like to know the maximum/optimal boost to run on the stock turbos without putting too much stress on the ceramic turbines? That and at what RPM does it achieve optimal boost and about how many seconds of lag are there before the turbo's kick in? Also, is there a way to have two different feul maps or settings on a car and be able to switch between the two depending on if your going to race or use it as a daily driver? Would a full EMS be able to do such a thing if I had a laptop installed? That way when I want to race I could change setings from inside the car at the push of a button (or buttons) either raising or lowering boost and feul levels on demand. I know there are systems that can adjust the suspension, I belive Tien makes them, for either full race or street mode from within so I could install that but how simple or difficult would it be to install a system that I can change engine settigns with? does such a system even exist? If not what would be a way to make a super fast track car but once I get off the track be nothing more than a mild mannered car without ripping everything out from under the hood? I mean I know I could turn down boost but with 850cc injectors gas mileage will go to crap unless I can lower the duty cycle on them to something more street applicable.

wow...I asked alot of questions...sorry to be such a bother...If im like this now it will be even worse once I actually get the car...sorry for all the questions and forgive me if some of them are stupid or common knowledge...I'll just blame it on T.V.

 

[RazorGTR]

is there a specific reason it can't change the timing back? Also how often would you want to reset the ECU? Would doing so everytime you install a new modification be a good idea or should it be left alone?

Whlie it is a learning computer, Nissan never gave it artificial intelligence. There isn't a computer for a car that I know of that can do both efficeintly as you are asking for.

[/i] Also with regards to the suspension, is it adjustable from the factory? If so does it have to be changed externally or is it computer controlled like the system found on ferraris and some of the new mercedes?[/i]

No it is not adjustable. it is possible the NUR Spec is but none of the factory "normal" GTR or skylines came with it from the factory.

[/i]I'd also like to know the maximum/optimal boost to run on the stock turbos without putting too much stress on the ceramic turbines? That and at what RPM does it achieve optimal boost and about how many seconds of lag are there before the turbo's kick in?[/i]

It seems to be around the 1.1 - 1.2 bar. The turbos will flow a max of 1.45 bar, I know my waste gate actuator line ruptured a while back and that is the absolut max boost it would make. Generally speaking 1.0 bar or 14.6 psi is the max you should run. Even saying that without a way to adjust the fuel maps properly you could lean the motor off. The turbos on an R32 GTR and R33GTR will reach full spool at about 3,100 rpms. One a quick shift the lag on a factory set up is less than 1 sec. The recover quickly. Add a larger front mount and it increases slightly depending on size.

Also, is there a way to have two different feul maps or settings on a car and be able to switch between the two depending on if your going to race or use it as a daily driver? Would a full EMS be able to do such a thing if I had a laptop installed? That way when I want to race I could change setings from inside the car at the push of a button (or buttons) either raising or lowering boost and feul levels on demand. I know there are systems that can adjust the suspension, I belive Tien makes them, for either full race or street mode from within so I could install that but how simple or difficult would it be to install a system that I can change engine settigns with? does such a system even exist? If not what would be a way to make a super fast track car but once I get off the track be nothing more than a mild mannered car without ripping everything out from under the hood? I mean I know I could turn down boost but with 850cc injectors gas mileage will go to crap unless I can lower the duty cycle on them to something more street applicable.

Well what you are asking I haven't seen before. That is not to say it does not exist though. In all honesty once you get a car up to that sort of perfromance diving it mildly on the street as such all the time will foul the plugs anyways unless you boost it to clear them from time to time. Like once every few min or so. You'll have a fair bit of lag also as the turbos or turbo needed wouldn't reach full boost until nearly 5,000 rpms or higher. So just putting along the car will be gutless as heck and not really fun to drive off boost.
The only thing I can think of is either a Motec or new Link Plus. They can be tuned via a laptop and the data is simply uploaded to the euc. So in theroy you could simply have two different mapped programmes for you ecu then upload them as you wish to use a certain one. The draw back is the car has to be turned off to do that. I've got two completely different ecu's. i can swap them around as needed in about 2min. On the R32 it is located behind the right hand floor pannel infront of the passenger door under the glove box. One is a factory standard R32 GTR ECU the other is my chipped one. that way if it has to go in for insurance work I swap them over so I don't get pinged. I know not a good thing to portry on the forums but it is better than being caught out with no insurance.

wow...I asked alot of questions...sorry to be such a bother...If im like this now it will be even worse once I actually get the car...sorry for all the questions and forgive me if some of them are stupid or common knowledge...I'll just blame it on T.V.

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

Originally posted by RazorGTR
Whlie it is a learning computer, Nissan never gave it artificial intelligence. There isn't a computer for a car that I know of that can do both efficeintly as you are asking for.

So I could invent one and make Millions! lol Seriously if they can make cars with Heads Up Display's, Tires that re-inflate themselves and have built in satelite navigation systems you'd think they could invent a system that could both advance and retard timing...I guess priorities are changing from performance to comfort and unecessary car options...

Have you ever heard of the AEM engine management system? It's full plug-n-play using all of your old ecu's connections and tunable on a laptop. I don't know how it would compare to a motec but I heard it's pretty good...anyway

are you aware of any program that will let me look at and or modify a feul map on my PC? this way I figure I can learn on my computer without screwing anything up...I havent found one yet but maybee you know of one

thanks for all the info and if I'm ever in NZ I'll have to buy you something for all your help!

 

[RazorGTR]

AEM? Nope can't say I have. One of the biggest draw backs to "plug and play" is you are using the car's existing wire loom, sensors, and other factory items. I prefer a wire in ecu as you are going to make sure that any potential problems within the wire loom or sensors are eliminated.
The Motec M800 is without a doubt one of the most serious aftermarket ECU's avialable. The expandability and programmability is phenominal. You can control boost at a given rpm range/gear/and throttle position all at the same time. Thus you are able to launch at say 1 bar, but as the road speed increases only slightly increase boost. Hook second and another boost setting that could also be progressive and so on. Not to mention the launch control which has a built in anti-lag system allowing you to sit at the line at a given rev range with the clutch in and still maintain optimal or programmed boost. It has 3 times the load points or mapping points of a good aftermarket ecu such as a microtec or haltec and 5 times that of an early Link. This would also include full data logging not to mention the ability to download that information to your laptop for further data comparisons of earlier runs. I honestly don't know how much or how far that ecu is capable. It is also not cheap by any stretch of the imagination.

As far as why about the ignition timing. Well ask yourself this. If your car is detonating at a given boost level at a given rpm/throttle postion and the ecu retards the timing to stop it. Do you really want it to do that all over again each time you start the car? Detination will eat away at your pistons and head. So in saying that honestly it is more of a built in safety feature for longevity on a road car. That is why the Motec is such a brilliant "racing" ecu. It will do basicly what you are saying but also in saying that most race cars are tuned to the max edge for max performance. They are not designed to last 100k on the road.

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

Originally posted by RazorGTR
AEM? Nope can't say I have. One of the biggest draw backs to "plug and play" is you are using the car's existing wire loom, sensors, and other factory items. I prefer a wire in ecu as you are going to make sure that any potential problems within the wire loom or sensors are eliminated.
The Motec M800 is without a doubt one of the most serious aftermarket ECU's avialable. The expandability and programmability is phenominal. You can control boost at a given rpm range/gear/and throttle position all at the same time. Thus you are able to launch at say 1 bar, but as the road speed increases only slightly increase boost. Hook second and another boost setting that could also be progressive and so on. Not to mention the launch control which has a built in anti-lag system allowing you to sit at the line at a given rev range with the clutch in and still maintain optimal or programmed boost. It has 3 times the load points or mapping points of a good aftermarket ecu such as a microtec or haltec and 5 times that of an early Link. This would also include full data logging not to mention the ability to download that information to your laptop for further data comparisons of earlier runs. I honestly don't know how much or how far that ecu is capable. It is also not cheap by any stretch of the imagination.

As far as why about the ignition timing. Well ask yourself this. If your car is detonating at a given boost level at a given rpm/throttle postion and the ecu retards the timing to stop it. Do you really want it to do that all over again each time you start the car? Detination will eat away at your pistons and head. So in saying that honestly it is more of a built in safety feature for longevity on a road car. That is why the Motec is such a brilliant "racing" ecu. It will do basicly what you are saying but also in saying that most race cars are tuned to the max edge for max performance. They are not designed to last 100k on the road.

I found the motec system at a tuner shop for about 5000 USD...then theres the programming wich I wan't to learn but will probably end up paying for since there is no way I want to risk screwing up a car...I don't wnat any trial and error an a car that would cost me up to 100,000 dollars....anyway thanks for all the info again...

I'm guessing that the skyline should use nothing but the highest feul even stock. I know that in japan they have higher octane ratings so I wouls have to use nothing but supreme unleaded...If I install the list of mods you listed earlier would I be able to still run on pump gas or would the 800 hp need race gas?

 

[RazorGTR]

No. You will need avgas or higher. Perferablly C16 but if you can get cam2 which if I remember correctly is 105 octane should be ok. Since your using a motec you should need the oxy sensors which will get killed by the lead.

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

Originally posted by RazorGTR
No. You will need avgas or higher. Perferablly C16 but if you can get cam2 which if I remember correctly is 105 octane should be ok. Since your using a motec you should need the oxy sensors which will get killed by the lead.

so I'd have to run avgas or C16 on my grocery getter ROFLMAO! I could just imagine driving up to the airstrip and saying telling the guy to fill it up! or I could just by an airplane but why would I want that when my skyline can be just as fast and I could park it anywhere whereas my plane I could only take to the airstrip.

I guess the whole gas thing would even out in the end. All I'd have to do is never buy an SUV and then my skyline can be the gas guzzler and I can buy some econobox hybrid to offset everything else! see I have it all planed out! I hope my future wife, whoever she may be, put's up with all of that.

 

[GSS]

You can just use octane booster, right? That is what people do here with their big power GT-Rs and Supra TT's.

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

Originally posted by GSS
You can just use octane booster, right? That is what people do here with their big power GT-Rs and Supra TT's.

yeah but I'd spend so much on octane booster that I might as well have went out and bought the race gas...

 

[RazorGTR]

Originally posted by GSS
You can just use octane booster, right? That is what people do here with their big power GT-Rs and Supra TT's.

Umm no. Unless you can get the octane rating to over 105 you will have detenation issues.

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

what's the octane rating of jet feul?

 

[RazorGTR]

NO idea but it would be interesting to see a car running it!

 

[Jay]

jets can use cheap crappy fuels due to the simplicity of the way there produce power (burn it and blow it out the rear)
so they use a type of kerosene something that wouldnt be suitable in car engines