No Love For The Oldies?

[McLaren]

Wht have only non US cars won the trans-am, for its last 7 years of existence.

The last 10-16 years though, were not really muscle cars. 1966-1972 were considered the big muscle car years of the Trans-Am Series. The point though, is that muscle cars can be competitive on the track despite your ignorance to think otherwise.

 

[Sniffs]

I agree with McLaren. STJ88 needs a good size thump on the noggin! you CAN road course muscle cars, doof!

a good driver can make any machine handle. I imagine that, ot there somewhere, is a guy that hot-rods old retired LIMOS! (we had a lifted one out here for a few years).

 

[TheCracker]

Whats wrong with the truth, you ain't gonna tel me that a 454 SS or road runner make's a good track car. And posting picture's of 70's cars one a track doesn't make the good track cars. With a heavy 5.0+ cast iron V8 in the front and leave springs, you ain't gonna be fast.

The US muscle seemed pretty quick to me last time i was out on track in a European 60's car.

As long as there is enough variety of 60's/70's cars to compete against so you don't end up having to run against moderns everything will be fine. If everyone is driving the same sort of machine, it doesn't matter how well they handle does it? (compared to technologically superior contemporary cars).

 

[Greycap]

Whats wrong with the truth, you ain't gonna tel me that a 454 SS or road runner make's a good track car.

Ever heard of a man named Richard Petty who used to drive light blue Road Runners and Superbirds? Guess not but it actually tells a lot.

 

[STJ88]

I think i will stick to these, for my 70's track cars. that red S30z has a record of 1:04 on tsukuba. Battle S30z

i'm not hating no US cars, but il keep mine on a straight.

 

[arvin charles]

That's fine that you're going to stick with only JDM cars, you're the one that's missing out.

But don't go around saying that muscle cars don't belong in a racetrack or that they're slow. There's no "truth" in that statement, because it's all opinion that's heavily biased against anything that isn't Japanese.

The US muscle seemed pretty quick to me last time i was out on track in a European 60's car.

They seemed pretty quick to me too! I was in my mid-80s 911. Obviously different levels of prep and driver skills, but in the right hands, muscle cars are plenty capable.

Anyway, here's some more pretty pictures.

Fiat Spyder

DeTomaso Pantera

Maserati Merak

Mark Kibort's 1987 928 S4 (1986 Bonneville speed record car and former Speed GT racer)

 

[Nicksfix]

Ever heard of a man named Richard Petty who used to drive light blue Road Runners and Superbirds? Guess not but it actually tells a lot.

nicely said. How about Dan Gurney , Roger Penske , Mark Donahue , Smokey Yunick , Carrol Shelby- ( real good one !!!!) going out on a a limb here (LOL) but I would say he's e legendary muscle car builder, Parnelli Jones , Bud Moore , Don Yenko , Jerry Titus , Jim Hall , Sam Posey , ( LEGENDS of American muscle car racing ),and there is many more to list. Why not pay tribute to these icons of auto racing,and their machines. Who would not like to drive a Donahue AMX , Dan Gurney T/A Challenger , Bud Moore Mustang , Jim Hall Z-28 , through through a track like Laguna Seca,and relive the past. I AM NOT dissing the European,Japanese,UK cars at all,I love them as much as the next guy,but my point is : bring on any other cars of that era,in the same class,not of American decent,and I think the results will astound you,This statement will probably raise some eyebrows,but that is why we are here, right ? ,it's a discussion forum,let's here them. OPINIONS , we all have them Not saying who is wrong or right or to point fingers at others to prove them wrong,it is just a matter of opinion.GT5 needs older,classic muscle to bring them to the fore-front of racing games.Powder Blue Richard Petty Superbird pounding around Daytona sends chills up the spine,love it !!!!! 👍👍

 

[tupacrulez]

ST: so what you're saying, is that you'll take a Japanese car from the 60's/70's, with much the same setup as a muscle car (just a smaller engine) but you wouldn't take the US muscle car? are you joking?

Me? I'm experience over speed, in most cases. If I'm doing time trials in GT, I'll gladly pick a car that is fun, over a car that is fast.

 

[McLaren]

Anyway, here's some more pretty pictures.

DeTomaso Pantera

I'd love to see DeTomaso in the game. Especially a Pantera SI model.

 

[arvin charles]

As far as design goes, the Mangusta is the best DeTomaso ever put out, IMO.

 

[STJ88]

ST: so what you're saying, is that you'll take a Japanese car from the 60's/70's, with much the same setup as a muscle car (just a smaller engine) but you wouldn't take the US muscle car? are you joking?

You realy know very little about cars like the KPGC110 GT-R, if you say something like this. The KPGC110 only weights 1100KG and has a high reving 2.0 dohc with fuel injection and all round disc brakes. it even has a 5 speed transmission, all this on a car from 1970.

From 1968-1972 the KPGC10 won 50 race's, of wich 49 in a row.

 

[RACECAR]

The only point in having muscle cars in GT5 is, if there is a drag strip. Because you got to be kidding me, a 60's or 70's chevy on a race track.

Wow, I guess cars like the Corvette Grand Sport or the Shelby GT500 dont count or even the Dodge Chargers. This has to be the most ignorant comment I've ever heard. And you then say they are slow because of thier "big engines". With that state of mind, that would have to apply to the Audi R10 and the peugeot 908 but looking at the times those 2 put up at Le Mans in comparison to the rest of the field, a hole has been poked in your logic. Muscle cars are quite capable if you JDM fanboys would actually think with reason instead of bias. Only people who don't have the skill to drive a Muscle or little brains would say that. Also, I'm gonna throw in those same cars along with more:

 

[Dave A]

I remember seeing some of thoes old Spirit of... racing Corvettes when I was younger, they were imposing to say the least. Some of them were 700bhp plus. regarding the "I prefer xxx type of car, other's suck" mentality some people have, I just have to feel that they are missing out. I have a preference to front engined, light weight, rear wheel drive sportscoupes, but that doesn't mean I don't recognise, or even enjoy other type's of car. Typically I'm not mad about the American car market, but put me behind the wheel of a late 60's Mustang in any sim and I will have a riot. It's sometihng I'd give a lot for to try in real life, sadly no late 60's Mustangs in Didsbury.

I'm not a particular Mustang fan, but if I said the whole classic muscle car era had no appeal to me I'd be lying. They do appeal far more so than the new crop of muscle cars, not that they don't themselves. At the same time I love Aston Martins, I love some of the big German super saloons. There are cars I dislike, but not because it's built in that country or smply because it falls into a certain category of car. Variety is the spice of life, and if your cutting out perfectly capable, fun and interesting cars out of the equation just because... Then the only person missing out is you.


Love this thread btw.

 

[Nicksfix]

SCCA -Trans-am corvair corsa stinger,awesome little piece of race history

 

[McLaren]

You realy know very little about cars like the KPGC110 GT-R, if you say something like this. The KPGC110 only weights 1100KG and has a high reving 2.0 dohc with fuel injection and all round disc brakes. it even has a 5 speed transmission, all this on a car from 1970.

Funny how the tables turn, isn't it?

 

[STJ88]

Funny how the tables turn, isn't it?

i was talking to TUPACRULEZ spelling master, because he called the KPGC10 a muscle car.

And you then say they are slow because of thier "big engines". With that state of mind, that would have to apply to the Audi R10 and the peugeot 908 but looking at the times those 2 put up at Le Mans in comparison to the rest of the field, a hole has been poked in your logic.

You want to get technical? let me tel you a 7 liter OHC cast iron in the front, aint the same as a aluminium 4.2 V8 in the middle. Muscle cars don't handle wel for many reasons, one of them is the weight distribution. Why do you thing JGTC supra's didn't use the cast iron 2JZ I6 but the much smaller and lighter 3S-GTE I4?

And why do all people get mad when i say the truth. i'm not hating on muscle cars, but we all know leafsprings and cast iron V8's aint made for the track.

And why do you people only show race cars as example's? Maybe you should thing a little about that.

 

[RACECAR]

And why do all people get mad when i say the truth. i'm not hating on muscle cars, but we all know leafsprings and cast iron V8's aint made for the track.

And why do you people only show race cars as example's? Maybe you should thing a little about that.

Exactly that: Because you keep stating they aren't made for the track so I showing examples of track worthy and I don't see any "Truth" as to how they aren't for the track just because of weight distribution, but I would like to see you argue that against names like Penske or Roush running those cars on courses that turn left and right. Also, weren't you just showing track cars yourself? Contradiction is quite hilarious. BTW, Some of those race cars actually came of the show room floor modified heavely for track use. Its really hard to believe that your not hating on muscle with a comments like "they're only good for the drag strip". And you want road cars? Here's your road cars then:

 

[Dave A]

i was talking to TUPACRULEZ spelling master, because he called the KPGC10 a muscle car.

No he didn't.

You want to get technical? let me tel you a 7 liter OHC cast iron in the front, aint the same as a aluminium 4.2 V8 in the middle. Muscle cars don't handle wel for many reasons, one of them is the weight distribution. Why do you thing JGTC supra's didn't use the cast iron 2JZ I6 but the much smaller and lighter 3S-GTE I4.

Your the one saying they don't handle well, no they arn't renowned for thier handling. But the debate wasn't weather or not the muscle cars were the finest handling cars of thier time. You made a blanket statment that they were rubbish on the track, this was simply not true for thier time and they had plenty of on the track success in the US and Europe in various sportscar and touring car disciplines.

And why do all people get mad when i say the truth. i'm not hating on muscle cars, but we all know leafsprings and cast iron V8's aint made for the track.

Why can't a leaf spring be used effectively on the track exactley? The C6 Corvette pretty much proves your ignorance on the matter. Just because the general concept of leaf spring technology is as old as the car, or almost, that doesn't mean that technology hasn't improved and evolved over the years. The idea of having 4 wheels is ancient, doesn't make it a bad idea though does it.

And why do you people only show race cars as example's? Maybe you should thing a little about that.

Maybe because it's the race cars that were doing the racing, officially at least. You said Muscle cars were rubbish on the track, they've posted pictures of some rather successful race cars which prove your statment wrong.

Again, no one is claiming muscle cars were the pinaccle of handling excelence or anything ridiculous like that, but they were certainly capable of competing in thier day. Let's face it, the finest handling cars back then can easilly get out handled by anything produced today. Muscle cars or Japanese sports coupes.

 

[Ardius]

I think theres been a little confusion here, seeing as the main issue was "60s/70s American muscle road cars are rubbish track cars..yes/no", let me just say that in the sense of their overall charateristics against 60/70s Japanese road cars, yes they are.
I think all that STJ88 was getting at was that their handling is no where near that of cars such as he has suggested. He was not talking about race cars, nor was he comparing modern day cars or anything of that sort. He was comparing 60/70s Japanese road cars with 60/70s American road cars.

I think you lot are a little too eager to jump on the "omg, you say american cars are rubbish just because they are raw" rant bandwagon. Perhaps some of his statements were a little wide and exaggerative, but jeez, way to miss the point by saying stuff like "look at these race versions, they're better!" or "your logic of big engines doesnt apply to these full on race cars from 40 years later".

Point is, you are all comparing the wrong cars and maybe missing the original argument that I think STJ88 was trying get across.

Or maybe I just read this thread wrong. Whatever, just thought I'd look at it from STJ88's point of view and realised that he hadn't really said very much to provoke such overblown reactions from everyone. Anyway, food for thought.

Disclaimer: I prefer American muscle over Japanese cars, just read this thread and felt something smelled off.

 

[McLaren]

Oh yeah, he was totally comparing them.

View Post
The only point in having muscle cars in GT5 is, if there is a drag strip. Because you got to be kidding me, a 60's or 70's chevy on a race track.

He was mocking them, and was making no comparison what-so-ever. It's nothing more than pure ignorance. 👎

 

[tupacrulez]

or arrogance.

You realy know very little about cars like the KPGC110 GT-R, if you say something like this. The KPGC110 only weights 1100KG and has a high reving 2.0 dohc with fuel injection and all round disc brakes. it even has a 5 speed transmission, all this on a car from 1970.

LOL Hypocrisy! I know nothing?! coming from the guy who honestly thinks 60's/70's American cars were useless on a track?...lol, I'm tellin ya, this is almost on par with gamefaqs.

And i never called your gutless 2 litre Skyline a muscle car.it'd be an insult to muscle cars to call it that. I said it had much the same setup, with a smaller engine.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

The only point in having muscle cars in GT5 is, if there is a drag strip. Because you got to be kidding me, a 60's or 70's chevy on a race track.

When it comes to STOCK muscle cars you are right. A STOCK old 60's or 70's muscle car is junk on the track. The suspension sucks, they sit way too high, crappy shocks, and come with terrible tires. But with very few upgrades an old muscle car can easily keep up with brand new cars on a road track. I am living proof of that. I have been running my 69 Camaro on road tracks with brand new BMW, STI, Porsche, Mustang, and new C5 and new C6 Corvettes for 4 years now. I also have another event coming up in 2 more weeks on July 26th at Grattan raceway. I have no problem running the same lap times and at many points faster lap times than the new cars.
Again like I said, STOCK old muscle cars did indeed suck bad. But dont be ignorant saying old cars cant keep up with new ones. They sell every aftermarket bolt on you can imagine to make old cars easily outperform most new cars for a lot less money. Sometimes 1/2 the price of a new car. Its very easy to put modern engineering and technology into an old car. Very easy. I am living proof of that and I really dont have that much into my 69 Camaro. You can see some of my car stats listed in my signature. My Camaro is worth probably half the price of a brand new Corvette and I have no problem keeping up with them.

 

[JohnBM01]

I'd like to let you know that I'm not one of the ones who usually clamor for newer cars. Sure the newer cars are more recognizable in this day and age. You can probably say that a lot of people who want cars in an upcoming game usually don't consider classic cars as well. Like we've seen that 1960 Corvette win Best in Show at SEMA and end up winning a spot in GT's car lineup to be (perhaps I'm overexaggerating) immortalized forever in Gran Turismo lore. This is a general post I lined up since I had a much more detailed post in the works.

Love them or loathe them, you know us American types will want to have a muscle car prescence in GT. Especially in this age of modernized retro, I'd imagine we could see classic muscle cars including their modern-day counterparts (if any). I don't think this will mean seeing a 1998 Mercury Cougar as opposed to the 1960s Cougar. To make the case for American classic cars, I love Trans-Am. I got into racing in 1999 and recall the Trans-Am cars of 1999 as these enticing, wide-bodied, GT-type cars that I loved so much except for the NASCAR-ish decal headlights. Classic Trans-Am cars were equally lovely machines. Just no-nonsense classic road racing. Drag racing types even wouldn't mind seeing some of the cars people from the old days took and went racing with. Also of note would be classic cars raced in NASCAR and very popularized from this.

Don't worry... I have a heart for classics. Don't put me in the bad crowd here!

 

[Jim Prower]

The only point in having muscle cars in GT5 is, if there is a drag strip. Because you got to be kidding me, a 60's or 70's chevy on a race track.

Clearly you have never heard of the SCCA Trans Am series.

Several of these cars were also raced successfully on an international level, in Europe and Australia, particularly the Camaro and Mustang

 

[arvin charles]

CamaroBoy, do you mind posting a pic of your car? I always admire those cars from afar.

 

[TheCracker]

Several of these cars were also raced successfully on an international level, in Europe and Australia, particularly the Camaro and Mustang

And (unfortunately) they continue to do so to this day.



These are FIA Appendix K too so are not very highly modified (as in period)

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

CamaroBoy, do you mind posting a pic of your car? I always admire those cars from afar.

With pleasure.

Here are a couple old pics at woodward 2004 before I modified the Camaro for the Murcielago exhaust set up.

 

[arvin charles]

Nice...I bet you surprise quite a few people at the track with that car. I was expecting the 69 to have round headlights, but I guess that's a different year.

That R/T 10 is nice too...It's the 90's version of the muscle car.

And (unfortunately) they continue to do so to this day.



These are FIA Appendix K too so are not very highly modified (as in period)

This picture just looks like a LOT of fun!!! I wish I was there...

 

[Saladine12]

What happened here?
The topic was about the love for classics and has now changed to muscle cars suck or don't suck!
I have love for ALL classics be it a Ford Mustang Boss 429, or a Nissan 240Z.
Be it brute force or delicate poise, all have a right to the track.

 

[arvin charles]

I have love for ALL classics be it a Ford Mustang Boss 429, or a Nissan 240Z.

Me too! I'd love to add a mid-60s Mustang, a Stingray Vette, a 240Z or an Alfa GTV next to my 911, but that's not happening anytime soon. Gran Turismo's the next best thing so far.

The topic was about the love for classics and has now changed to muscle cars suck or don't suck!

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that STJ's not changing his opinion anytime soon...So, more pictures of gorgeous cars then?


Fiat Abarth 1000