No more Miatas! Give us these!

  • Thread starter Enzo_Guy
  • 66 comments
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Can I be greedy and want all them MX5's as well as the classic cars listed in the op (especially the DB4 and the speed six)?
 
Griffith500
Well, I thought I'd seen this, but I don't remember that frank admission of prior ignorance!

Kaz's attitude is definitely promising; I like that he's taken this new perspective, although what that means for Gran Turismo in general remains to be seen. I doubt it's at all bad, though.
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Even though I'm guilty myself of using the 'GT is a car encyclopedia' argument many times (mainly to defend variety and underappreciated oddities), I think GT is basically rubbish as a car encyclopedia to be frank since it isn't in any way a full and accurate representation of car history or its key periods.
It's first and foremost a videogame which tries to offer a wide range of cars from different periods and that video suggests to me that selection is mostly subjectively chosen (if free choice is the only criteria), unlike an encyclopedia which aims to be more objective and offer the whole picture (which a videogame ofcourse can't do easily since the subjects need to be experienced as well, not just featured).

Ofcourse PD perfectly understand or at least are aware of car history (those museum-cards are proof of that perhaps) but are filtering that though their own (or Kaz's) frame of reference when it comes to deciding what to include.
There's nothing wrong about that, I guess most of us would do exactly the same given the chance (it seems almost inescapable not to).
Maybe if those wishing for more classic and true vintage cars were as numerous and outspoken as the supercar/racecar demanding bunch, it might persuade them to rethink their perspective once again.
But if the open online lobbies are an indication, the classics already included aren't very popular right now anyway.

Maybe it's a niche within a niche and maybe GT just isn't the platform which'll do those periods currently underrepresented (by any videogame by the way) justice eventually.
If most people here prefer a nineties Supra over, say, a Bugatti Atlantic it seems Kaz's frame of reference might be closer to most of his audience than a few weirdos with an alternative one.
 
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Famine
So the question now becomes why you'd want to leave them out. Why shouldn't a Japanese player get to drive a Eunos Roadster? Why shouldn't a European player get to drive an MX-5? Why shouldn't an American player get to drive a Miata? Why do you hate these players so much that you want to take options away from them?
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I don't want cars in the game that never existed being presented as existing just so PD can meet numbers quotas. Especially not when, if PD absolutely had to have all of those Miatas in the game, it wouldn't have taken that much effort to actually do it right; and change some numbers, names and specs around so the cars actually represented real ones.



Admittedly this is a GTPSP problem that GT5 inherited, but that just makes it more inexcusable in my mind because that means that they had even more time to do something about it. I would also argue that the rather blatant lack of attention to detail over the matter therefore makes the game objectively worse than if those cars weren't in it, which as a result justifies people wishing they were removed.
 
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Agreed (and mentioned in the big explanation quote), except:

Toronado
just so PD can meet numbers quotas
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It was just a GTPSP issue that GT5 inherited. No numbers quotas required.
 
I meant in GTPSP. 830 is I'd imagine a much more impressive number to put on the box than whatever low-to-mid-700s number (I really wish I could find that post) it would be without them.
 
What GT5 really need:

- a Livery Editor
- a Custom Event editor.
- More Tracks.
- Improved Aspec AI.

Heck, in rFactor I'm using Miata and Skylines all the way and I'm not complaining at all. Because I can paint those cars how I want, the racing is so close (AI need some tweakin but when ready it's amazing). And what about the TRACKLIST. GT5 needs more tracks, not only cars! You'll feel less stressed with 5 new tracks. What if GT5 had those 4 features, think about it.
 
Toronado
I meant in GTPSP. 830 is I'd imagine a much more impressive number to put on the box than whatever low-to-mid-700s number (I really wish I could find that post) it would be without them.
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But that's not the reason for GTPSP's car list being as it is - it was PD's solution to a unified car list for all regions of GT4 to prevent online incompatibilty issues. They just smooshed the car lists together (and, for some reason, separated out the S2000s into Japanese, (US) and (EU) models) so that the guys in Asia could keep driving their Eunos Roadsters, the guys in Europe could keep driving their MX-5s and the guys in the US could keep driving their Miatas.

The biggest single car list for a GT4 game was 728 for the Korean version. If you ignored multiple regional names and preserved the core list, but included all unique cars from all other regions, you could get 741. GTPSP added a few new cars to the list (though it dropped some - like Aston Martin and the historic [and fiddly-modelled] antiquars). With GT4's full car list and those unique cars added, you're at just about 770.

Incidentally the number on GTPSP's box (at least mine) was "over 800".


Running down the car list from GT5 and only including each unique chassis/engine/drive combination (so, for instance, the NA MX-5/Miata/Roadster 1.6 is one car, the NA MX-5/Miata/Roadster 1.8 is one car; the R33 Skyline 2.0 turbo GTS is one car, the R33 Skyline 2.5 GTS is one car, the R33 Skyline 2.6 GT-R and infinite variations is one car; the NASCAR stock cars are all treated as one car for each manufacturer too), I made it to just about 700 cars (I need to check the file to be more accurate - yes, I keep files on this sort of thing*). It's a harsher - but fairer - system than many would employ and there'll be some errors on there either way (I'm never quite sure how to treat the various generations of RX-7 and I hate the Prelude too) but it's how I'd do it.

*Edit - 704. So close.
 
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I'm aware it was a solution to that problem. I just think it was the wrong one, and that it was probably made that way rather than optimizing the car selection for the purposes of marketing. They should have consolidated and (since GTPSP marked the return of the car descriptions) explained.
 
Toronado
I'm aware it was a solution to that problem. I just think it was the wrong one, and that it was probably made that way rather than optimizing the car selection for the purposes of marketing.
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I agree that, of the solutions they could have used, it was not an ideal way to do it, but I don't think it was anything to do with marketing. 770 cars or 830 cars makes no difference - it's still more than any other car racing game in history to that point.
 
I want more Miatas! They don't have a Mazdaspeed Miata on there (Like what I drive)!! :)


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I quite dislike the MX-5 and all it's variants. The new premuim Roadster is the only one I like. I for one wish they gave us a load of Mazda RX-8s, Mazda 3/ Axela or even a load of weeniemobiles, just not miatas and equivalent variants.
 
I think that the Miata is the greatest afordable open bodied roadster around and loved them from the game so much I had to buy one. Blew threw the canyon yesterday on a 60 mile loop and was bumbed out once I made it back home.
 
JBanton
I quite dislike the MX-5 and all it's variants. The new premuim Roadster is the only one I like. I for one wish they gave us a load of Mazda RX-8s, Mazda 3/ Axela or even a load of weeniemobiles, just not miatas and equivalent variants.
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Spoken like someone that has never driven one... (please see below)

LeftyWright69
I think that the Miata is the greatest afordable open bodied roadster around and loved them from the game so much I had to buy one. Blew threw the canyon yesterday on a 60 mile loop and was bumbed out once I made it back home.
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^^^ He's driven one. :dopey:
 
You mean the car which is notably larger, heavier, more expensive, more powerful and is in a class above the Miata; and thus despite being a good driver's car in its own right still isn't comparable to the Miata?


There are too many of those in GT5 as well.
 
JBanton
Maybe so, but there are a lot less complaint threads though :P
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I could complain about a lot more than just the Miata, that's just sort of become the poster child of the "did we really need all of those?" philosophy.

I currently own (not including DLC):
32 of 34 Miatas
25 of 27 RX-7s
And I'm not even giving it the time of day to count the Skylines, Silvias, Fairlady Zs, NSXs, S2000s, Celicas, and so on! It's redundantly redundant!:ouch:

Then I have to go live with the fact that they give us a nice selection of classic cars that don't even compete with any other ones!:crazy: Such as the '69 Camaro Z28 (you could argue the Shelby GT350R but they fudged the specs on that, the R-code had the 289 competition motor and was lighter), the '71 Mustang Mach 1, and '70 Challenger Hemi. The Z28 is an early Trans Am car, the Mustang is a later Trans Am car, and they could at least give us a Challenger T/A or Cuda AAR to round out the Trans Am pile, right? No, we get the big block versions of both, so they don't compete with the small block pony cars and then there are no big block versions to compete with Mopar pony cars. Just stuff like that I feel could have been a little more planned out instead of rendering enough Miatas and Skylines to fill the Grand Canyon.
 
I can only guess that PD didn't include that cars we want because they didn't want it in their game. If PD had planned to have those cars in the first place, then surely they would've made room for them, right?
 
1241Penguin
I can only guess that PD didn't include that cars we want because they didn't want it in their game. If PD had planned to have those cars in the first place, then surely they would've made room for them, right?
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They don't need to make room - there's plenty of space left on even a single-layer BluRay... They're not in because they couldn't be included:

Famine
We can say, with certainty, that all cars in GT5 were known to PD, chosen by PD, licensed to PD and modelled for PD. We cannot say, with certainty, whether any car not in GT5 was not known to PD, not chosen by PD, not licensed to PD or not modelled for PD - only that one or more is true. The notion that they knew of, chose, licensed and modelled a car - the only conditions by which a car could have been included - and then decided to leave it out is bizarre at best. That immediately implies that any car that was not included could not have been included.

If it could be in the game, it already is. Otherwise it's missing because it wasn't modelled (they didn't do it in time, or couldn't get a real example), wasn't licensed (the licence owners did not negotiate to the car's inclusion), wasn't chosen (PD simply didn't see a need for it) or wasn't known about (the guy making the "car encyclopaedia" somehow forgot it), in ascending order of requirement.

If PD didn't know about the car, telling them about it is great. Only they probably did know about it - they're trying to make a car encyclopaedia. If PD didn't want it in the game, telling them you want it is great. Only they probably do want it - they're trying to make a car encyclopaedia. If they couldn't get a licence for it or couldn't get a real one to model, telling them about it is superfluous.
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Old cars are good, but I'd like more new cars. Also old vintage cars, pre 60s, should be premium because the cockpit view is a big part of their feel.
 
What I just find mindboggling is why there are 22 variations of the Mazda Miata, 25 GT-R's and 16 S2K AP1's (16 within a 4 year period. They are all exact same car, engine and all except for 10 less horsepower in the USDM/Euro market. 16 DUPLICATES!) yet Polyphony only gives us 3 Mustangs (not including either the new GT500 or 2010, a fox body or anything prior to a 71 Clydesdale), only a single British Leyland product, 3 Volvo products (one of which is simply a 1988 GLT Wagon. Guess they forgot about the 850R and 242GT), not a single BMW E30 or E36 M3, E24 M6, E28 or E34 M5, M1, Ford Escort or Sierra, Shelby Dodge, Jaguar XJS or XJ6, Chevy Z34 or Z26, VW Jetta GLX, Peugeot Mi-16, nothing from AMC (defunct), DeTomaso (also defunct), Noble, Maserati, Oldsmobile (again, defunct), Mosler......and I could go on and on.

You just have to ask the developers why in the world they make duplicates of the very same car yet fail to include some very important enthusiast vehicles in the game. There are 66 cars from Chevy, Ford and Dodge in the game (minus the stock cars.) The number of Miatas, GT-R's and S2000's outweighs that. Yes, there are more than 66 variations of just those three models. Great job PD, great job. This is something I've wanted to rant on for quite some time but in each release, it is something completely ignored. And what I fear is that if they do cut down on the duplicates, we won't see many classics to replace them. Even though I love and grew up on the GT series, it is this which makes me want to buy a 360 strictly to play Forza. There's a ton of cars you will find there and not in GT5. GT5 bragged about how they have the Ferrari license; Forza has 36 to GT5's 12. Enough said
 
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pepsibottle1
what i just find mindboggling is why there are 22 variations of the mazda miata
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35. 11 Eunos Roadsters (NA) and Roadsters (NB), cloned into Miatas and MX-5s for the original GT4 regions, squished together for the GTPSP car list to prevent online instability, plus the Premium NC MX-5 and the MX-5 TC.

pepsibottle1
yet Polyphony only gives us 3 Mustangs (not including either the new GT500 or 2010, a fox body or anything prior to a 71 Clydesdale), only a single British Leyland product, 3 Volvo products (one of which is simply a 1988 GLT Wagon. Guess they forgot about the 850R and 242GT), not a single BMW E30 or E36 M3, E24 M6, E28 or E34 M5, M1, Ford Escort or Sierra, Shelby Dodge, Jaguar XJS or XJ6, Chevy Z34 or Z26, VW Jetta GLX, Peugeot Mi-16, nothing from AMC (defunct), DeTomaso (also defunct), Noble, Maserati, Oldsmobile (again, defunct), Mosler......and I could go on and on.

You just have to ask the developers why in the world they make duplicates of the very same car yet fail to include some very important enthusiast vehicles in the game.
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Famine
We can say, with certainty, that all cars in GT5 were known to PD, chosen by PD, licensed to PD and modelled for PD. We cannot say, with certainty, whether any car not in GT5 was not known to PD, not chosen by PD, not licensed to PD or not modelled for PD - only that one or more is true. The notion that they knew of, chose, licensed and modelled a car - the only conditions by which a car could have been included - and then decided to leave it out is bizarre at best. That immediately implies that any car that was not included could not have been included.

If it could be in the game, it already is. Otherwise it's missing because it wasn't modelled (they didn't do it in time, or couldn't get a real example), wasn't licensed (the licence owners did not negotiate to the car's inclusion), wasn't chosen (PD simply didn't see a need for it) or wasn't known about (the guy making the "car encyclopaedia" somehow forgot it), in ascending order of requirement.

If PD didn't know about the car, telling them about it is great. Only they probably did know about it - they're trying to make a car encyclopaedia. If PD didn't want it in the game, telling them you want it is great. Only they probably do want it - they're trying to make a car encyclopaedia. If they couldn't get a licence for it or couldn't get a real one to model, telling them about it is superfluous.
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I agree with ya completely there Famine; with as much as Kaz tweets and what-not, I just want to know why he keeps evading the question. If you can tell us it was due to licensing purposes, I'd understand. It's the fact that they fail to listen and/or understand that irritates the hell out of me. It's been like this since GT1 and it has been the same each release. Like I said, Forza has it right; why can't Gran Turismo? I don't want to leave because I literally grew up on the GT series and I love GT5 but with the variety and quality Forza brings to the table, you just have to wonder. At least Forza is attempting to get these licenses together, and have apparently even worked out something with Porsch and EA. Kaz just flat out said "Nope." I just hope that in the future, there will be a good sack of classic cars to come out and by that, I'm hoping for a pack of at least 8-10. I've got my money right here PD, it's burning a hole in my pocket! Be it $9.99 or $19.99, I don't even care at this point because I want to see something different.
 

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