No R tyres in expert events?

[Leonidae]

^er.. he didn't even mention cut slicks.. where did you pull that one out? besides, there's so much variances in tire treads that arguing about it is bit like arguing over how many colors rainbows have..

 

[Stevisiov]

It's probably a fault on my end, but I have always considered cut-slicks to be semi-slicks. Either way there is enough evidence to draw a reasonable conclusion on this. A 350z's tyres aren't what I would call semi's slicks but maybe that's a personal thing....

[edit] but we're running off topic here. Point I am arguing in this thread. is people stating that running with a slick tyre is unrealistic in online racing events, I have posted my argument on that matter.

 

[Paulie]

No you're right, a 350Z's tyres aren't semi slicks, which does ask the question what PD have done. N1-S3 tyres in my eyes are street legal tyres you'd use on the road, R tyres are racing slicks you'd use on the track, that's my view. I know for sure from GT4 that R tyres are full racing slicks because you could see the tyres. And using racing slicks on road cars takes the fun away and isn't like driving them how you'd drive them on the road.
Yes, it is realistic, anyone can put slicks on a road car and track it (for a lot of money), but I think most of us are saying we're after an experience of driving the car as it's found on the road, or slightly upgraded but still street legal.

 

[Stevisiov]

No you're right, a 350Z's tyres aren't semi slicks, which does ask the question what PD have done.

Agree'd somewhere I think PD are missing a tyre type between sports tyres and racing tyres. I am using GT4 as a bench mark in saying that all S tyres are the same just a different compound. If so there should be a tyre in between a hard compound slick found on race cars and a a hard compound sports tyre found on the 350z. There needs to be a road legal track tyre I guess Gran Turismo would call it the semi-racing tyre

N1-S3 tyres in my eyes are street legal tyres you'd use on the road, R tyres are racing slicks you'd use on the track, that's my view. I know for sure from GT4 that R tyres are full racing slicks because you could see the tyres.

Agree'd

And using racing slicks on road cars takes the fun away and isn't like driving them how you'd drive them on the road.
Yes, it is realistic, anyone can put slicks on a road car and track it (for a lot of money), but I think most of us are saying we're after an experience of driving the car as it's found on the road, or slightly upgraded but still street legal.

This seems like a far more valid argument that the 'realistic' argument that some people have used, I do think it has a few short comings though. I can see why the idea of racing the car as you find it on the road is fun but since you are tuning your car to meet PP requirements its no longer a stock car, so running a non-stock car on stock tyres doesn't seem like a great idea anymore. Of course on time trials this isn't a problem because you can't tune your car, it really does feel like 'run what you brung'. I love the feeling of pushing the car on sports tyres for time trials and running a race on sports tyres throws in an extra bit of difficulty, but at high PP's say running sports tyres at 650PP and above becomes a bit silly.

Directed at others, you know who you are. People who argue it takes better drivers to handle these wild beasts also seem to forget that eventually the racing becomes inane as you add more power and speed to less grip. You could run fully tuned corvettes on N1 tyres and sure it would sort out the men from the boys in car control but the racing aspect is lost it becomes a challenge of who can keep their car on the black stuff, which is pretty far removed from normal racing.

I personally think 550PP events with slicks are a little boring because even the most unruly cars become a piece of cake to drive. For me its all about finding the balance and for that it would be nice to have a mixture of some tyre restricted events and some non-tyre restricted events, preferably the higher PP events have de-restricted tyres.

 

[neil_1980]

Whats unrealistic about R rated tyres on a normal car?

When I had a clio 172 (hardly a race car) I fitted R888 semi slicks to take it round the ring and if it had been another track day that allowed full slicks I would have fitted full blown slicks to it.

Idea is your taking the cars round a race track so why shouldnt race tyres be used if they could in real life?

After all this isnt a driving to the shops simulator is it?

 

[Paulie]

Agree'd somewhere I think PD are missing a tyre type between sports tyres and racing tyres. I am using GT4 as a bench mark in saying that all S tyres are the same just a different compound. If so there should be a tyre in between a hard compound slick found on race cars and a a hard compound sports tyre found on the 350z. There needs to be a road legal track tyre I guess Gran Turismo would call it the semi-racing tyre

Even though cars like the BMW 135i are still on N3 tyres. Wouldn't you think that the 350Z and 135i have similar tyres?

This seems like a far more valid argument that the 'realistic' argument that some people have used, I do think it has a few short comings though. I can see why the idea of racing the car as you find it on the road is fun but since you are tuning your car to meet PP requirements its no longer a stock car, so running a non-stock car on stock tyres doesn't seem like a great idea anymore. Of course on time trials this isn't a problem because you can't tune your car, it really does feel like 'run what you brung'. I love the feeling of pushing the car on sports tyres for time trials and running a race on sports tyres throws in an extra bit of difficulty, but at high PP's say running sports tyres at 650PP and above becomes a bit silly.

Directed at others, you know who you are. People who argue it takes better drivers to handle these wild beasts also seem to forget that eventually the racing becomes inane as you add more power and speed to less grip. You could run fully tuned corvettes on N1 tyres and sure it would sort out the men from the boys in car control but the racing aspect is lost it becomes a challenge of who can keep their car on the black stuff, which is pretty far removed from normal racing.

I personally think 550PP events with slicks are a little boring because even the most unruly cars become a piece of cake to drive. For me its all about finding the balance and for that it would be nice to have a mixture of some tyre restricted events and some non-tyre restricted events, preferably the higher PP events have de-restricted tyres.

If I tuned up my Ute (which I will) you can bet it will still be on road tyres. But then it won't end up with that much power anyway. No idea why I said that. The thing is, we can have upgraded tyres and still use sports tyres (keepin it road legal), S3s offer remarkable levels of grip, they make even a Z06 seem pretty tame, or has everyone forgotten just how powerful a Z06 is? When you start getting more power than a Z06, chances are you're building a drag car, then you'd put on drag tyres when you get to the strip. If you were building a track car with more than 500hp, you'd probably be putting on big rear wings and race tyres as well. Even supercars for all their power these days have some form of downforce keeping them down.


They're not saying that sports tyres on higher PP cars is the more realistic more fun option, or at least I hope they're not. They're saying that these current 550 PP, 600 PP events on unrestricted tyres is a bit silly, the tyres are too much for the car, and cars of these power levels we'd like the Sports tyre and down option only. Road legal, and fun driving then.

Now, I have no idea what I'm trying to say any more. Lemme go to bed or something.

 

[Rash-182]

i´m glad that you guys are starting to get my point.. this isnt about that we cant put racing tyres on our own cars..sure we can..
This is about three words: GAME, ONLINE, FUN

 

[Stevisiov]

They're not saying that sports tyres on higher PP cars is the more realistic more fun option, or at least I hope they're not.

People have stated that slicks should only be for race cars. I have stated that I disagree and that I personally feel 650PP and above should be on racing tyres and not sports tyres.

My biggest argument was with other people saying it wasn't realistic to race on racing tyres for non-race cars, when in fact that simply isn't true

They're saying that these current 550 PP, 600 PP events on unrestricted tyres is a bit silly

I agree with this, I posted this last page: 'Personally I would go with 650PP or > for R tyres and 450 < for N tyres but who am I to say that is the right thing to do.

I have been quoting you which makes it look like I am disagreeing with you but I see your point but I think it should only be applied in certain cases, namely low PP events.

i´m glad that you guys are starting to get my point.. this isnt about that we cant put racing tyres on our own cars..sure we can..
This is about three words: GAME, ONLINE, FUN

I'm sorry but I don't get your point, your first post in this thread was this:

I think PD should definetly disable R tyres in all expert events.

This I am afraid is just non-sense, I can understand them being disabled in low PP events, but to say they should be gone from all expert events is silly, 800PP event on sports tyres??

You might think its more fun if we just did away with slicks but I still want to see a good mix of restricted and de-restricted tyre events.

 

[NLxAROSA]

We all pride ourselves in having "the real driving simulator" yet when confronted with a choice for realism, and may I add in expert events only, you choose to ignore the realistic option.

You completely missed the point of my two previous posts. I don't disagree about using S or N tyres for lower PP cars at all (because that is exactly what I prefer), but I want everybody to be able to choose for themselves, not be FORCED into it because somebody else thinks it's more realistic (which is in fact quite debatable if you read the other posts here).

Why are you so obsessed by forcing other people to drive to your standards? You already have the option to drive to your own standards: simply create an S (or N)-only event in the Events forum for one of the current events and off you go. Forcing it on other people who clearly don't want it IS selfish, no matter how you put it.

Personally, I want low PP expert races without R-tyres (S-tyres for anything below 650 and N for anything below 550 would be fun and nice). But if there are people out there who want low PP races with R3-tyres, I certainly will not forbid them. As long as they are having fun with it, it's cool with me. I really don't see the point of banning anything.

 

[Div is back]

You completely missed the point of my two previous posts. I don't disagree about using S or N tyres for lower PP cars at all (because that is exactly what I prefer), but I want everybody to be able to choose for themselves, not be FORCED into it because somebody else thinks it's more realistic (which is in fact quite debatable if you read the other posts here).

Why are you so obsessed by forcing other people to drive to your standards? You already have the option to drive to your own standards: simply create an S (or N)-only event in the Events forum for one of the current events and off you go. Forcing it on other people who clearly don't want it IS selfish, no matter how you put it.

Personally, I want low PP expert races without R-tyres (S-tyres for anything below 650 and N for anything below 550 would be fun and nice). But if there are people out there who want low PP races with R3-tyres, I certainly will not forbid them. As long as they are having fun with it, it's cool with me. I really don't see the point of banning anything.

Read my post again please. I'm strictly targeting stock street cars (600-650PP).

As for the guy in the CLIO, I'm happy you did not put R tires on your car when going to the Nurb, you'd be another statistic.

 

[Nicksfix]

I have a question about this tire thing going on ? - good debate by the way 👍

Before the Spec III update,I used to run the living h*** out of the Lotus' ,tuned and non tuned versions with "S" tires,and could really kick some tail with them.Spec III comes around,changing the "car physics" and possibly the "tire grip" ? I find myself struggling mightly with this car on "S" compound anymore.I did a 550pp tune for Suzi and put "R" tires on rear and "S" tires on front,now this thing handles as of old,I can win with this car again.

Is it me (driving),or did the tires really change all that drastically ? MR cars are different to drive,especially when you crank up the PP and put on "S" tires. Sorry if I seem like a "whimp" for putting on "R" tires on a 550pp car,put that is the only way I can get this car to come around anymore.One thing I have noticed,and I don't know about all of you,but since Spec III,the MR cars seemed to have taken a hit as far as physics go , or is it a tire issue ?

 

[Stevisiov]

Read my post again please. I'm strictly targeting stock street cars (600-650PP).

I am sorry but that's simply nonsense. 600PP-650PP cars are very capable of running on slick tyres, sure it's not going to be the same compound as you find on F1 cars, but these cars are quite capable of running slicks. Its not fair to assume that these car should race on sports tyres because its realistic when frankly it isn't the case.

As for the guy in the CLIO, I'm happy you did not put R tires on your car when going to the Nurb, you'd be another statistic.

Forgive me if I am barking up the wrong tree here, but R tyres doesn't by default mean your going to die a horrible death on the 'ring, in fact in many situations they could save your life, there are problems with running both R- and S-tyres in real life on the ring, and that's without factoring in weather , other vehicles and so on.

 

[Exorcet]

Is it me (driving),or did the tires really change all that drastically ? MR cars are different to drive,especially when you crank up the PP and put on "S" tires.

I have no problems with street cars, but tuned car in the game have poor aerodynamic settings. MR cars need much more rear downforce than FR cars (though the ratio in game is horribly off).

Example, take a tuned Viper with stock aero, a GT LM with stock aero, and a GT LM with stock front, 30-32 rear aero. The first and last in that list will drive the same, the stock GT LM will feel like it has one wheel.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Read my post again please. I'm strictly targeting stock street cars (600-650PP).

Again, if people want to drive 600-650PP cars with R-tires, let them. You want to drive on S-tires, go ahead, there's nothing to stop you from doing so.

 

[Div is back]

Is this a political debate? Sounds like it.

 

[Rash-182]

People have

I'm sorry but I don't get your point, your first post in this thread was this:



This I am afraid is just non-sense, I can understand them being disabled in low PP events, but to say they should be gone from all expert events is silly, 800PP event on sports tyres??

You might think its more fun if we just did away with slicks but I still want to see a good mix of restricted and de-restricted tyre events.

I was talking about real cars HERE. And as i stated a few posts ago i changed my mind a bit. It wouldnt be good if they have baned the R tyres but to show more sense in which events they will be avaible.
I think i will change title of this thread
But nice discussion guys 👍

 

[Stevisiov]

I was talking about real cars HERE. And as i stated a few posts ago i changed my mind a bit. It wouldnt be good if they have baned the R tyres but to show more sense in which events they will be avaible.
I think i will change title of this thread
But nice discussion guys 👍

Your right I like a good discussion 👍

Is this a political debate? Sounds like it.

Directed at who exactly?

 

[aerosmith323]

You know, just because you have the option to use 'em doesn't mean you HAVE to. In fact in a lot of cases they are not the best choice, but I personally think it's nice to have the option. just my 2 cents!

 

[fasj6418]

My post isn't directed to the old folks of WRS and GTP, but i can tell you that, for some mid-level GT gamers, racing a fast car on a bad tire is the ultimate "oh my god, look at how awesome i am".

If the game was really realistic on tires, we wouldn't have this argument. People could equip their normal cars with Economic or Road tires if they wanted to, but as the race went on, they would probably blow, overheat, things like that. I hope tires are simulated well in GT5. I really do.

Racing a Ford GT in N1 tires has become the cool thing to do just because it's harder, and somewhat eliminates the average joe driver. That's just one specific type of racing, but it's not the norm.

There's a reason why some tires are called "road tires" and others "racing tires". Let's think about that for a second.

By no means i'm going against the people that like to test their limits in bad conditions, i'm just statin the obvious: racing tires are made to race, wheather your car is modified or not.

Still can't figure out why anyone would want to ban a racing tire on a racing game.

 

[Paulie]

Racing a Ford GT in N1 tires

That would be one cheap rich guy!

 

[amar212]

While I still stay by my opinion that R tyres should be limited to race cars or specific events, I voted for option "more PP limit on R tyres".

Making R tyres more PP handicaped would solve all problems. Banning is not an option because I agree with both arguements towards R tyres usage: they are more demanding to drive on limit for experienced drivers and they make racing more enjoyable for non-experienced drivers. Greater PP-handicap would put everything in place.

Great debate BTW, this is one of those rare original threads that are almost non-existant in this Whislist Days.

 

[zujo 19]

i don't like R tires in expert events

 

[NLxAROSA]

Making R tyres more PP handicaped would solve all problems.

What one would expect is that if a car is at 550 pp with S-tyres, it would perform roughly the same at 550 PP and R-tyres, since PP level is the same (ofcourse the R-tyre car would have more weight and/or less power). But right now, that is not the case.

If we take the current 550PP FWD event as an example, I'm sure you have all noticed you are forced to put the Integra on R1 tyres, since it is significantly faster than S3's, despite having the same amount PP.

Personally I expected S3's to be at least as fast, since Fuji has lots of long straights and bends where more power is an advantage over faster cornering and the PP-level is the same. Still, the R1's are seconds faster on the same car with the exact same amount of PP. This is a good indication that the R-tyres may need more PP since one would expect much closer results if PP-level is the same. I suspect people wouldn't object against having R-tyres in low PP events if the advantage wasn't that obvious. You are basically forced to go with R's if you want to keep up. Still, I don't think banning is the way to go.

 

[amar212]

If we take the current 550PP FWD event as an example, I'm sure you have all noticed you are forced to put the Integra on R1 tyres, since it is significantly faster than S3's, despite having the same amount PP.

The same situation is on 650PP Suzuka, where you just can't use S3 compound, because there is no way on earth you can catch-up R1 compound in lap-times, no matter how good you are.

And HP/kg difference in S3 to &1 is very significant - on paper, at least.

The PP maths should equailise the great gap that R compound is producing, and everything will be perfect then.

 

[Zimmerd]

Ban them would really upset beginning drivers.
You should be able to put R-tyres on race cars,
but on stock cars it just wouldn't be fun to race with R-tyres and it wouldn't be realistic neither. I think the best option is to put more PP limit on R-tyres..

 

[Lion-Face]

I would like to see more limited use in the expert events. The current races i find boring, the F40, of all cars, was a point and go car, no need to feather the throttle with R tires on, there was such little risk of putting it sideways.

I think R tires are great for 700pp and greater events. 650pp and less IMO, should be at S tires at the most. Although i do like the arguement that the R tires dont push the PP up enough and should carry a higher penalty.

 

[Exorcet]

but on stock cars it just wouldn't be fun to race with R-tyres and it wouldn't be realistic neither.

It's called momentum driving, and I finding just as "regular driving". At 550 Suzuka I started using the Z4 with R3's, and it gave me the most challenge. It was because of the different style of driving, I'm more used to the traditional aim and shoot out of a corner. With the Z4, I had to instead try to conserves speed. Slow in, fast out didn't work. On top of that I HAD to pass on corners, while everyone else could shoot by me on the straights.

IMO, if you want to win take an M3 with S3 tires, if you want a fight, use something like the Z4 with R3's.

 

[wnffe]

The PP maths should equailise the great gap that R compound is producing, and everything will be perfect then.

Exactly!👍 This is why the reason in pp550 RWD event, the Clios and Elises are dominating. Because they are the ones that can use R1 tyres with the same PP!!! (is it? tried rx7 & can't use R1) Those bloody lightweight cars on R1 can easily do sub 2:20's in Suzuka!!

 

[NLxAROSA]

Those bloody lightweight cars on R1 can easily do sub 2:20's in Suzuka!!

Make that 2:16.

 

[Zimmerd]

It's called momentum driving, and I finding just as "regular driving". At 550 Suzuka I started using the Z4 with R3's, and it gave me the most challenge. It was because of the different style of driving, I'm more used to the traditional aim and shoot out of a corner. With the Z4, I had to instead try to conserves speed. Slow in, fast out didn't work. On top of that I HAD to pass on corners, while everyone else could shoot by me on the straights.

IMO, if you want to win take an M3 with S3 tires, if you want a fight, use something like the Z4 with R3's.

Yesterday I did a 550PP with R1's and Z4 but I just didn't have fun..
Ok the car sticked to the road, but afterwards I really wanted to change in S-tires and a little more power.