Non-linear throttle
- Thread starter SnowLeopard
- 575 comments
- 94,743 views
Its irrelevant. I think you’re misreading my original comment, or mixing up terms.
Simply put, the rubber doesn’t change how the potensiometer works. Going from 0-100 (256 levels in g29). The game is incorrectly amplifying this signal, thereby discarding the information held within the last 30-40% of pedal travel.
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FPV MIC
Premium
- 4,306
- Australia
- GT-MIC
It can if that's the way it was designed to work by Logitech.
Non of the other pedals have this non-linear brake and when other branded pedals operate at full range (with or without brake mods) if calibrated in-game I doubt the G29 would be any different unless it was designed to run with the rubber stopper. Could PD have a hand in that, yeah maybe, but it could be the G29 firmware or the type of pot as well. After all they (Logitech) are trying to mimic the way a load cell works.
Full Pedal travel 0-100 isn’t hindered by the rubber, it merely requires extra force. The digital output remains the same. What I see both of you doing is, changing the subject, I’d prefer the original comment to stand on its on. If you want to Challenge the idea or my identification of the problem, by all means give it your best shot. However, Don’t move the goalpost.The bung changes the travel, the G29 does not recalibrate itself. Why not just answer the question? It is relevant.
A question about rubber and force required for deal travel is irrelevant as I’m talking about 2 digital interpretations of a signal. 1 being linear, the other being wrong. My sensors are not faulty, rubber, and not even the position of the moon, affects how the potentiometer works. Software modulates the signal. I’m requesting and reporting that this is faulty. You need only scroll through this thread to see proof and echos of this conclusions.
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Considered? I have, go look in the bug report section. I’ve validated my data across devices, OS’s, and hardware. What nerve, calling me out, with no factual backing of your own. I’d suggest you leave it, as you have no vested interest. You mention that maybe Logitech’s software / firmware is the cause of this. Well even though my mind is settled due to my testing, I’d be very happy if you could prove that Logitech indeed does something strange with their firmware, that only affects GT sport. I wish you good luck!
Concerning ”why you would grasp”. Well, because you’re jumping to a simple solution, that’s unrelated to the subject matter. Why? Because it’s easier than to think and carefully read. You asked, although I recon you won’t like the answer.
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Indeed why make it so. No other game that represents pedal input on screen, has this oddity of amplifying the signal.
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
I have examined the Logitech G29 brake in detail, so you're wasting your time challenging me on that. Full pedal travel is limited by the bung, and the wheelbase does not extend the range of the digital output when the bung is removed to cover the resulting deadzone.
Since you've gone this route of feeling attacked, I can only assume that you are using a G29 with the bung removed. Otherwise why wouldn't you have simply answered 'no' to the question you still haven't answered?!
GTS throttle issue is known, not arguing over that - why would I?
We aren't saying GTS doesn't have some issue with the brake, just that a G29 is not the best wheel to prove it with.
I have examined the Logitech G29 brake in detail, so you're wasting your time challenging me on that. Full pedal travel is limited by the bung, and the wheelbase does not extend the range of the digital output when the bung is removed.
Since you've gone this route of feeling attacked, I can only assume that you are using a G29 with the bung removed. Otherwise why wouldn't you have simply answered 'no' to the question you still haven't answered?!
GTS throttle issue is known, not arguing over that - why would I?
We aren't saying GTS doesn't have some issue with the brake, just that a G29 is not the best wheel to prove it with.
Color me unsurprised, you’d be wrong in that conclusion. I’ve compared the data between GT SPORT and USB calibration on windows. It’s a simple verifiable fact that the curve is non-linear.
Also, i wouldn’t exactly call your examination thorough. I’ve taken hardware, these ones in particular, apart and refurbished them for years. Which is why I have been able to test with multiple units, coming to the conclusion above.
Fanatec csl elite, thrust master t300 and t500, as well as G29.
Do you really believe that the g29 brake pedal signal cannot reach 100% with the rubber in place (disregarding what GTS does to the signal). I’ve measured the voltage, it goes to 5v, easily, with me pushing down with my arm, with and without the rubber. So yes I’ll challenge your statement if you insist that a small compressible rubber can stop me from depressing the pedal fully. Why on earth you’d assume I’d removed it increase my difficulty gaging the throw, is beyond me.
Btw, that voltage is getting translated to a perfect 0-100% over about 22 degrees of movement. (Unless the unit is faulty, which mine are not), which from what I can read, you are already aware of.
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
Sigh. The only thing we've tried to point out is that a G29 brake without the rubber bung reaches 100% output from the wheelbase well before the bottom of travel of the pedal. As in, there is then a deadzone that it would be wrong to blame GTS for.
As long as you're aware of that then no problem.
How on earth did you manage to take anything I've said as "g29 brake pedal signal cannot reach 100% with the rubber"?! Here's a tip - when you find something that incredulous, ponder for a moment to check you've understood what's being said, rather than going off half-cocked. I said travel, not signal.
Hello again Outspacer, I am well aware of the minor deadzone at the end. I'll have to refer you to my post earlier, describing pedal travel as 256 digital levels. I didn't guess these levels, i watched them, digitally on screen in GT sport, Pcars2, Windows USB Calibration.
What i take issue with, is that you're talking about a pedal and how hard it is to push. Meanwhile i'm talking about the potentiometers output and the fact that GT sport uniquely alters and amplifies these values. It seems to me that you're arguing with a straw-man.
I'll return your piece of advice, if you believe you to be so right that you don't need to revisit the previous part of the conversation, then usually, you're the one in the wrong.
Furthermore, a reasonable fit person can easily depress the pedal fully, i.e. 100% travel movement with the rubber inside, so my point remains. The rubber doesn't prevent a linear response curve, nor does it prevent a fully depression of the pedal and lastly it does not hinder full travel. Saying otherwise detracts from the real problem and is simply false.
Like you, i've conversely tried to highlight the fact rubber or no, that this deadzone you talk about, is exactly the same width, with or without the rubber. i'd recon its about 2 degrees or 1/8th of an inch. Thereby irrelevant to the issue.
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
It's you who needs to reread. I have not argued that there isn't an issue with how GTS handles pedal input. I have not argued that the G29 is the sole cause of any of the issues.
The only thing I've brought up is that the G29 brake without bung has its own deadzone problem, and I've been quite specific about what I mean. If you imagine I'm saying something else then it's not my problem. I've watched the voltages and levels, measured the angles of travel, etc, etc, blah, blah. It's a valid complaint that has a proven solution. It's relevant insofar as adding deadzone, which is not saying that GTS doesn't add even more on top which I'm sure they do. To quantify how much PD adds it would be better to use some other wheel as a reference, one with a hard end-stop on its brake and decent calibration.
What is false is the words you've been putting into our mouths on this page, ever since the simple question of whether you were using a G29 with the bung removed. Any strawman is your creation.
I'm out. Good luck with your bug report to PD.
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FPV MIC
Premium
- 4,306
- Australia
- GT-MIC
Actually you've proved my point yourself (see quote below), which is part of what I was trying to establish in the first place .
As for calling you out and goal posts being moved (in one of your other posts), what I joke
. I didn't call you out on anything and there were no goal posts 
. At that stage you wouldn't even answer what brand of wheel you had or if the rubber bung was in or out.
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- 2,205
- United Kingdom
- breeminator
- breeminator
Out of interest, do you see the same curve applied with both the throttle and the brake? With my Fanatec pedals, what I see is an S-shaped response curve, where there is high initial sensitivity, i.e. a small pedal movement creates a large change in the game's displayed response. Then the pedal becomes less sensitive in the middle, the displayed response changes relatively little with pedal movement. Then towards the end of the travel, it becomes more sensitive again, and the last bit of displayed response happens within a relatively small portion of the pedal travel. This is the case for both brake and throttle. I don't experience any problematic deadzones with my pedals, it's purely the non-linearity of the response relative to pedal travel that is annoying.
FPV MIC
Premium
- 4,306
- Australia
- GT-MIC
There are more than one issue though and the Logitech G29 with the rubber stop removed is the only one affected by one of them, hence why I asked if that's the set up he had. If he had simply answered that question things wouldn't have been complicated at all.
The issue in the below quote doesn't happen with either of my wheel/pedal sets (T500rs and T-GT).
- 712
- Finland
So, if I make my throttle to work linear in GTS, I will find that last 1sec and finally be in the top 10 boards?
Serious question, will it really make that big difference?
I have allready T300rs wheel with modified g29 pedals, so little more tinkering and I'll bet that the throttle will be adjustable
Serious question, will it really make that big difference?
I have allready T300rs wheel with modified g29 pedals, so little more tinkering and I'll bet that the throttle will be adjustable
For me it wasn't about speed I might be losing. It was about it making every car feel utterly **** to "drive" and being thoroughly and unhelpfully "wrong" in every possible way. Thankfully, no car or bike I have ever ridden or driven over the last 50 years has a throttle that works anything like that of any vehicle in GTS or I may not have been here to tell the tale.
I actually have the g29 and have no comparation to make, it´s a bit tricky cause of the brake travel but i actually find the rubber band usefull cause it clicks when it´s on the limit and i know how hard i´m pressing it, anyway i really think it´s a matter of adaptation and training.
Maybe if i take SIM to serious i can put in the equation to buy a better wheel with a better set of pedals and a playseat but i can say that i´m very happy with G29, 200€ brand new and after 2 days i was doing same laps times comparing with ds4 and i think i got faster all arround by this time but still need to pratice to improve.
Maybe all that´s tricks to mod hardware can make life easier but since there are many fast drivers using all types of wheels and pedals probably it´s a matter of pratice and adaptation like i sayed.
- 2,205
- United Kingdom
- breeminator
- breeminator
Not 1 second, no, maybe 0.1 in a small number of corners where it's really hard at the moment to provide the desired input. For example, Tokyo Wet for the last Manufacturers, coming out of the last hairpin, I simply couldn't do what I wanted to do, which was apply a tiny amount of throttle while turning in a smooth arc. The non-linearity meant as soon as I touched the throttle, the car spun out because it was putting 20% throttle in not the 5% my foot was moving. So I had two choices: 1) use TC, which felt horrible, the car just bogged down, or 2) wait till the car was pointing straight down the road, so that 20% throttle wouldn't make it spin out. Both were slower than being able to put the right amount of throttle in, but probably only by about 0.1 secs. Nowhere else on that track was a problem.
- 6,290
- Washington State
- OutlawQuadrant
To my knowledge, there's no workaround around the throttle mapping other than being overly conscious of your right foot. Whether a linear throttle will make people faster, there's no guarantee it will but I doubt a change would hurt anyone at all. Almost certainly would aid in consistency and that will naturally lead to improvement.
Anyone doubting that a nonlinear throttle is not a concern should be required to do that hairpin in the rain without TC. It's doable but good luck trying to nail it every time for the entire race.
Seems good idea, like g29 do with the brake but the oposite, you don´t need to increase the movement probably only need to alter the firmware to make a bigger curve after 50% pedal travel, to be accurate probably will be hard i guess, to make it really linear across all movement i mean.
