Non-linear throttle

That's why I love PD.... none of the real cars have linear throttle....
Maybe the throttle body is linear at the old wire gas pedal cars but the power that you receive is not linear in the position of the gas pedal.
Agreed, cable actuated (linear) throttles actually have a logarithmic curve to thier airflow/power... which is natural based on the opening of a butterfly or throttle plate.
What the game has given us is exponential, which is almost exactly opposite of what is happenig at the throttle plate.
My limited experience with fly by wire throttles in the real world (Jeep/VW) tells me that the auto industry has gone exponential as well to help folks be easy/smooth... thus favoring EPA ratings and luxury.
This is why in performance cars in the real world, changing to "sport" mode seems to give us more power, guessing it reverts back to logarithmic which gives you a tonne of control up top (flat curve), and responsiveness at low and mid pedal travel.

My .02... FWIW

Hate the throttle in my '13 Wrangler and my buddies '17 GTI (dbw)... blip the throttle to let the clutch out and it kinda farts and you get no rev's, and nearly stall out... have to shove it down and hold it to get any engine rpm/action... gas it, wait... there's some rpm ease the clutch out, ok, we're off... Grrr...
Old School throttle (cable actuated) in my Mustang, blip the throttle and the engine responds. Blip, clutch out, drive off... so refreshing
 
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Agreed, cable actuated (linear) throttles actually have a logarithmic curve to thier airflow/power... which is natural based on the opening of a butterfly or throttle plate.
What the game has given us is exponential, which is almost exactly opposite of what is happenig at the throttle plate.
My limited experience with fly by wire throttles in the real world (Jeep/VW) tells me that the auto industry has gone exponential as well to help folks be easy/smooth... thus favoring EPA ratings and luxury.
This is why in performance cars in the real world, changing to "sport" mode seems to give us more power, guessing it reverts back to logarithmic which gives you a tonne of control up top (flat curve), and responsiveness at low and mid pedal travel.

My .02... FWIW

Hate the throttle in my '13 Wrangler and my buddies '17 GTI (dbw)... blip the throttle to let the clutch out and it kinda farts and you get no rev's, and nearly stall out... have to shove it down and hold it to get any engine rpm/action... gas it, wait... there's some rpm ease the clutch out, ok, we're off... Grrr...
Old School throttle (cable actuated) in my Mustang, blip the throttle and the engine responds. Blip, clutch out, drive off... so refreshing
Exactly my friend.. Thanks for this!
Be sure that even in cars with wire gas pedal to thrlote the gas isn't linear
 
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Real world, my Clio Trophy has 5 throttle maps available via RS monitor, snow / progressive / linear / sport / extreme, the comedy factor is that you need to put the car in sport or race mode to access the snow setting!

Side note: they forgot to press the RS button in game so the car is stuck in ‘normal’ :( this means no pops, bangs or farts on upshift :(

The throttle map is simply changing the shape of the curve being used by the electronics to determine how pedal travel is related to throttle opening. Snow /progressive is similar to what we have in the game...

I have also used exponential throttle curves when racing RC cars, mainly to try and smooth initial response in slippery conditions ;)

Anyway maybe the game should also offer some simple choices or even the ability to completely tune the throttle curve...
 
T300 user here and it doesn't feel linear to me either.
Same here - is like 60% of the throttle happens in the last 40% of travel. Makes it so easy to spin up the wheels without TC, I have to keep it on 1
 
Real world, my Clio Trophy has 5 throttle maps available via RS monitor, snow / progressive / linear / sport / extreme, the comedy factor is that you need to put the car in sport or race mode to access the snow setting!

Side note: they forgot to press the RS button in game so the car is stuck in ‘normal’ :( this means no pops, bangs or farts on upshift :(

The throttle map is simply changing the shape of the curve being used by the electronics to determine how pedal travel is related to throttle opening. Snow /progressive is similar to what we have in the game...

I have also used exponential throttle curves when racing RC cars, mainly to try and smooth initial response in slippery conditions ;)

Anyway maybe the game should also offer some simple choices or even the ability to completely tune the throttle curve...

My Bmw HP4 has a non linear throttle as well.

There's four maps - Rain, Sport, Race, and Slick. Each changes the throttle input relative to twist of the grip (and they also adjust a myriad of other things like wheelie and stoppie control). 1:1 input doesn't happen in the lower gears, regardless of how aggressive the map gets. The power to weight ratio is too much for 1:1 throttle. (193hp/373 lbs)

For the people saying non-linear throttle is why they need to drive with TC on, the opposite is the case. If it weren't for non-linear throttle, everyone would need to drive with TCS on.
 
My Bmw HP4 has a non linear throttle as well.

There's four maps - Rain, Sport, Race, and Slick. Each changes the throttle input relative to twist of the grip (and they also adjust a myriad of other things like wheelie and stoppie control). 1:1 input doesn't happen in the lower gears, regardless of how aggressive the map gets. The power to weight ratio is too much for 1:1 throttle. (193hp/373 lbs)

For the people saying non-linear throttle is why they need to drive with TC on, the opposite is the case. If it weren't for non-linear throttle, everyone would need to drive with TCS on.
That depends entirely on how the non linear shape of the map is.

With GTS a very small amount of travel at the end amounts for most of top end of the power band, which makes throttle modulation far more difficult than it's should be with the 'meat' of the torque delivery.

The vast majority of real world non linear throttles are the opposite, small travel for the 'empty' end of the power, with the 'meat' of it spread over a large range of throttle travel.

Not to mention that's for a bike, which in this regard is quite different to a car.
 
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The vast majority of real world non linear throttles are the opposite, small travel for the 'empty' end of the power, with the 'meat' of it spread over a large range of throttle travel.

Not to mention that's for a bike, which in this regard is quite different to a car.

I think we're saying the same thing. I'm looking at the original video and that is pretty much exactly what you would expect with high power applications (like a superbike or a race car, because it's all about power to weight ratios). The initial application of throttle should be giving less power until you get moving, where you can then deliver more power and run less risk of losing traction.

This entire approach came into being when F1 and other organizations banned traction control and teams had to find another way to control the power, so they created non-linear fuel maps.

What you describe is exactly what the video shows. The "meat" as you say is spread over a wider range with the top end hit coming over a smaller range, at the end of the throttle travel. By doing this, the power delivery is poured out slowly. It's the torque that you are trying to tame, not the horsepower.

Besides, I don't think you could have "the opposite", or a convex non-linear power curve, only concave. Convex would require you to have more power then the throttle input you are giving (so, 25% input, but 35% power) which, if possible, would be undriveable.
 
Besides, I don't think you could have "the opposite", or a convex non-linear power curve, only concave. Convex would require you to have more power then the throttle input you are giving (so, 25% input, but 35% power) which, if possible, would be undriveable.
To be clear, the curves shown in the video are the game's interpretation of the pedal position, as indicated by the on-screen display- they have absolutely nothing to do with the torque/power curve of the engine. You press the pedal down halfway and the game thinks it's only depressed a quarter.

They're giving us all sorts of room to manhandle the pedal while barely squeezing open the throttle body but at the end of pedal travel, where being able to feather it precisely is critical, the sensitivity is reversed- microscopic adjustments in the pedal make massive changes to the throttle body. That's what @Scaff was referring to when he said if anything, it should be the opposite. You simply don't need that kind of sensitivity when you are barely opening the throttle.

It should just be linear, regardless of what a specific car's throttle map may be doing. Handle that with the map, not with the global input interpreter.
 
I think we're saying the same thing. I'm looking at the original video and that is pretty much exactly what you would expect with high power applications (like a superbike or a race car, because it's all about power to weight ratios). The initial application of throttle should be giving less power until you get moving, where you can then deliver more power and run less risk of losing traction.

This entire approach came into being when F1 and other organizations banned traction control and teams had to find another way to control the power, so they created non-linear fuel maps.

What you describe is exactly what the video shows. The "meat" as you say is spread over a wider range with the top end hit coming over a smaller range, at the end of the throttle travel. By doing this, the power delivery is poured out slowly. It's the torque that you are trying to tame, not the horsepower.

Besides, I don't think you could have "the opposite", or a convex non-linear power curve, only concave. Convex would require you to have more power then the throttle input you are giving (so, 25% input, but 35% power) which, if possible, would be undriveable.
The issue is that GTS isn't limiting that last bit of throttle travel (say 10%) to around 15 - 20% of the delivery, it's the last 10% being used to control around 40% of the delivery.

I know exactly what throttle position does on high-powered and race cars, and it's not this.

1 to 1 pedal position to throttle opening was also the norm on cars with mechanical throttle bodies (as very few other options exist without a lot of complexity and cost), non linear throttle maps are a product of the ECU and plenty of cars were built and raced before that (and some still are). Many of them high torque and low weight, almost none of which had any form of traction control.

Not to mention I have already provided a link to illustrate that 1 to 1 remaps are available for race spec cars.

Here's one for road cars as well:
https://www.revotechnik.com/support/sales/linear-throttle

And more detail about how one model of map is not the norm and how it can have a significant effect on how a car 'feels' to drive.
http://www.carmag.co.za/technical_post/accelerator-calibration-performance-feel/
 
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Most drive by wire pedal maps will not translate pedal movement directly into throttle plate movement so that analogy is not really useful in the modern era (especially with direct injection gasoline which, like a diesel, doesn't use a throttle plate). The pedal map goes via the ecu to torque demand - this is really what you are asking for with your right foot. And this is what should be at least a linear relationship - it's just wrong that it's so sensitive between say 60% and 100% demand (estimate).

Why it can't be user configurable I don't know.
 
The real question is why doesn't it use the actual maps from the manufacturers, as this doesn't vary from car to car on the ones I've tested so far.
I'm not sure anyone can say it doesn't incorporate those maps. There's just not really a way to tell so long as the throttle pedal is mapped incorrectly by the game.
 
The real question is why doesn't it use the actual maps from the manufacturers, as this doesn't vary from car to car on the ones I've tested so far.

Because it is an arcade game? ;)

What does GT use flmanufacturer data for, maybe gear ratios, power and torque curves but that seems to be about it?

Things like alignment values, and other suspension settings just seem to be generic to GTS not valued from the real vehicles...
 
I'm not sure anyone can say it doesn't incorporate those maps. There's just not really a way to tell so long as the throttle pedal is mapped incorrectly by the game.
I can for the cars I've driven in game and in reality.

Every car I have so far tried and looked at this on has the same map, that certainly isn't right. If the throttle maps were right in the game then that certainly would not be the case, regardless of what is being used to control the throttle.

Why is it so difficult to accept that GTS may well be using a single generic map for this, given that they do just that with so many other values and always have?

PD are known for visual accuracy within the series, they are not known for technical accuracy (quite the opposite).
 
The issue is that GTS isn't limiting that last bit of throttle travel (say 10%) to around 15 - 20% of the delivery, it's the last 10% being used to control around 40% of the delivery.


And more detail about how one model of map is not the norm and how it can have a significant effect on how a car 'feels' to drive.
http://www.carmag.co.za/technical_post/accelerator-calibration-performance-feel/

Gotcha, so what you are saying is that GT is using a too great of a curve (too shallow at the beginning, too steep at the end), not that it should not use a curve at all.

Then yes, I think throttle mapping should be in the set up menu for every car. It's a shame we don't need to use set ups anymore.
 
To me it's "button -> pedal" mapping that we're talking about, not necessarily "pedal -> throttle body" mapping.

It's still crap though.
 
To me it's "button -> pedal" mapping that we're talking about, not necessarily "pedal -> throttle body" mapping.

It's still crap though.
It's a pain with pedals, it's got to be a nightmare with a controller.
 
It's a pain with pedals, it's got to be a nightmare with a controller.
Would you say your pedals are stiffer than the G29? I'm planning on getting a GTEye throttle spring just to keep me from pressing it too far accidentally. Is yours as stiff as you can get and still have issues?
 
I can for the cars I've driven in game and in reality.
What I'm saying is that as long as the throttle is being interpreted incorrectly, it is augmenting what the car dynamics programmers have designed the cars to do. They might have programmed in every car's throttle map to function as it does in real life but with the inputs being read incorrectly, that work will have been lost.

Though I agree that it's more likely that they did just as you say and used the same map for every car.
 
What I'm saying is that as long as the throttle is being interpreted incorrectly, it is augmenting what the car dynamics programmers have designed the cars to do. They might have programmed in every car's throttle map to function as it does in real life but with the inputs being read incorrectly, that work will have been lost.

Though I agree that it's more likely that they did just as you say and used the same map for every car.
The throttle map that relates to the throttle pedal position and the resulting throttle body (or ECU equivalent) is what I'm referring to.

Every car will have one, some more than one (my last Alfa had three), its these that are wrong and should be correctly modelled off the real world ones, or in the case of most race spec cars be linear.

As per the info in this link:

http://www.carmag.co.za/technical_post/accelerator-calibration-performance-feel/

This diagram in particular.....

pedal-travel.jpg

....illustrates it well, with GTS's being even more aggressive than the example shown here, particularly at the top end.

Quote:
"As explained earlier, the software in the ECU forms the link between the accelerator input and the engine output. Accelerator-pedal-calibration engineers can now determine which percentage of pedal travel equates to the level of torque delivered. It is quite common for small-engined city vehicles to allocate a large percentage of torque to a small percentage of pedal travel (see below). This creates a feeling of responsiveness to the driver, but he will soon realise when he hits the motorway that there is not much reserve torque available in the remaining travel of the accelerator pedal.

Conversely, sportscars with powerful engines have high amounts of torque across the engine-speed range, so that more emphasis is put on a linear response from the accelerator pedal to increase driver control. Accelerator-response curves can be altered with vehicle speed and even the gear that is selected. This allows a performance vehicle to feel docile at parking speeds but more aggressive elsewhere in the vehicle-speed range.

After continuously driving the same vehicle, your brain subconsciously adjusts to the pedal calibration and only when driving a vehicle from another manufacturer will you notice a difference in response, even if the engine outputs, gearbox type and vehicle mass are similar. Automakers rely on acceleration-pedal engineers to calibrate a similar performance feel across the entire vehicle range to promote brand identity."

Would you say your pedals are stiffer than the G29? I'm planning on getting a GTEye throttle spring just to keep me from pressing it too far accidentally. Is yours as stiff as you can get and still have issues?
Its been too long since I used a set of G29 pedals for me to be sure about that, however I have no issues with the throttle pedal resistance on any other title and the force required to use it doesn't differ greatly on my T3PA Pro's to that of my own car (now the stock ones that came with my T150 or T300 were too light).
 
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Gotcha. Do you still find yourself pressing too much and having spins and whatnot or are you able to adjust and deal with it (unfortunately)?
 
Gotcha. Do you still find yourself pressing too much and having spins and whatnot or are you able to adjust and deal with it (unfortunately)?
I can adjust and deal with it fairly well, I've spent enough years driving different cars, however when swapping back to GTS from just about anything else the difference is noticeable (and not in a good way).
 
@ScorpionTopaz regarding spins, I transitioned to driving without TCS this week and a few things I noticed that can help, set your FFB Sensitivity to 10, it will make easier to catch slides when they occur and mind your steering wheel position, front wheels need to be almost straight before you can floor it.

You can see that on slow corner exits in this video from today's dailies



regarding non-linear throttle, even though I can adjust to it I would prefer linear.
 
That's a nice crutch to help keep you from using too much throttle too soon. I currently have Torque at 3 and Sensitivity at 7. Sometimes 8 with heavier cars. It feels good for me, but the throttle is a whole other problem. I really think the GTEye spring will make a big difference.
 
Thank God I thought I was going insane here with my DS4 gas being 80% depressed but the game registering it as 100%, this explains a lot!

Great video as well, very insightful.

And yeah, I believe this exponential response issue should have been applied to the brake pads instead as it would make more sense with it, the brake pedal having a linear response also is not helping either and I'm forced to use ABS on all cars.

Has anybody emailed this to PD?
 
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My bike has two useful throttle maps, one like the green curve, and one like the red curve.

The green one is great on the motorway, or in windy / bumpy conditions, for maintaining a constant speed at less than 20% throttle. But when you're "on it", the steep upslope near the full power region makes it difficult to modulate forward thrust around and out of corners. It's also less appealing around town, mainly when setting off, due to the large amounts of throttle movement required to do so.

The red one is more direct initially (too much so with the stock fuel / ignition map; lean fueling and aggressive timing due to emissions control), but it requires too much wrist movement to meter torque output near full throttle in the twisties, and when changing gears during acceleration (clutchless up, no quickshifter).

I've thought for a while that, ideally (for my spread of use), it'd be best with something more like the blue line. I honestly think manufacturers overthink this a bit.


Anyway...

My position is that the game should be 1:1 in terms of its input processing, purely from an input-output and player-in-the-loop feedback system point of view - i.e. in terms of response and feedback of information, in order that we can (re)adjust our input accurately. We play the game at or near 100% throttle, and that is where emphasis should be placed. Yes, initial throttle application is important mid-corner, but in a track context, that is effectively taken care of with the torque curve already.


The key as many have said is to understand exactly what we mean by "non-linear", because there's lots of ways to do it. I first looked into the non-linearity of throttle butterflies when I was messing with sound synthesis (throttle area is a useful parameter). From a control perspective, the important thing is the gradient at each position, i.e. how much power you gain or lose from a given throttle setting by moving the throttle a small amount. Large changes in output from small inputs naturally are harder to control, but more subtly and equally importantly, large changes in that gradient over the important range of operation can give a sense of disconnection.

The basic curve for a throttle butterfly is the first quarter of a (negative) cosine curve, so it gains gradient according to the sine curve, i.e. quickly from zero in the first half, then tapers off in the last half, approaching a straight line (constant-gradient). I hope that's clear in the diagram below.
To add to this, the distance (along the duct, with flow) between the leading and trailing edges of the throttle butterfly gives rise to a venturi that increases the effective area (in terms of actual airflow) more rapidly in the mid-range, yielding a closer to linear response much sooner after the initial opening than the geometry would imply.

Other types of throttle, namely vertical slides (prolific in motorcycle carburettors) and circular orifice slide plates have more complex trigonometric relations, but still have a fairly soft initial response, a linear mid-section and then can also soften out even more at the top end, like an S curve.

throttles.png


Note that it assumes that the control actuation between the pedal and the throttle itself is linear, and I've put GTS on there just as an illustration, but the output is only the reported in-game throttle position, whatever that actually means. Either way, when playing, you can feel there is less control near full throttle, and I think this chart shows why.
 
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