Nordschleife time discrepancies

[Ryan81]

Ok guys, I decided to test production vehicle times on the Nordschleife in both GT5 and FM4.

All aids off with the exception of automatic transmission in both games.

Now, I managed an 11:04 with the Chevy Volt (150hp)

Compare that with a 9:15 with the Golf GTI IV on GT5 (150hp)

How does one account for the large time difference? Ok, the GTI is no doubt lighter, runs on petrol etc but we're talking nearly two minutes here. Sure, in GT5 you have a 'rolling start' which would probably shave 10 seconds or so off the overall time but that stills leaves a heck of a large time gap.

The course is the same length in both games (or should be) yet there are certain corners etc where I think Forza's version is longer. For example, the straight just before the Karussell.

I remember in Forza 3 I managed about 9:22 with the Audi S4 '00. That car should eat the GTI IV for breakfast on the Nordschleife since I was getting about 8:40 +- with the 147 GTA which has very similar performance figures.

I suppose this question is for those who have both games and have noticed this discrepancy.

Just out of cursiosity, I went to Wiki and had a look at the official Nordschleife lap times and I saw 8:05 in the M3 E92. I got an 8:06 with the M3 Coupe '07 in GT5. Seems as if GT5's times are closer to reality.

In no way am I trying to turn this into a "GT5 is better than Forza 4" debate. I'd just like to know what others think of this.

 

[magic_town]

Were you not able to use 2 identical cars?
There must be 2 the same in both games. The length of the track may have something to do with the difference, as in there are so many opportunities to lose/make time. It's hard to run laps within a tenth like on a shorter track

 

[Ryan81]

Were you not able to use 2 identical cars?
There must be 2 the same in both games. The length of the track may have something to do with the difference, as in there are so many opportunities to lose/make time. It's hard to run laps within a tenth like on a shorter track

Well, I used two cars with relatively similar attributes. But we're still talking nearly a two minute difference. But that's ok- I'll use a Mk V GTI on both and see what happens. I'm guessing in Forza it will be something like 9:50 and in GT5 about 8:50. But again, theoretically the length of the track in both games should be identical but it appears as if Forza's Nordschleife is significantly longer in 'real time'

 

[Nismo34]

Run the lap on GT5 as normal then do 2 laps so that the second lap is the official timed lap on Forza, repeat. Average out the lap times and that should iron out any major issues. 👍 As for the cars, you could use the Golf R, the GTR Spec V, R34/33/32, Z34, Z33. Each are easy to access and are on both games which should give you a nice comparable time.

 

[Ryan81]

Run the lap on GT5 as normal then do 2 laps so that the second lap is the official timed lap on Forza, repeat. Average out the lap times and that should iron out any major issues. 👍 As for the cars, you could use the Golf R, the GTR Spec V, R34/33/32, Z34, Z33. Each are easy to access and are on both games which should give you a nice comparable time.

So you're saying do 1 lap on GT5 and do 2 laps on Forza and count the second lap as the official timed lap?

 

[Nismo34]

So you're saying do 1 lap on GT5 and do 2 laps on Forza and count the second lap as the official timed lap?

Yes. That will give you the rolling start and the top speed down the straight minimising the differences between the 2.

 

[Ryan81]

Yes. That will give you the rolling start and the top speed down the straight minimising the differences between the 2.

Yeah, makes sense although that's a bit of a pain in the arse lol. Means in actual fact I have to spend 20+ minutes testing out one car on Forza.

 

[Nismo34]

Yeah, makes sense although that's a bit of a pain in the arse lol. Means in actual fact I have to spend 20+ minutes testing out one car on Forza.

Yea, pretty much....

 

[SeaNNyT]

The times will never match due to the fact that forza 4's version is nearly 2.5 Km longer than the real life track. GT5's is more accurate in terms of length.

 

[Nismo34]

The times will never match due to the fact that forza 4's version is nearly 2.5 Km longer than the real life track. GT5's is more accurate in terms of length.

How is Forza's longer???

 

[X-Power]

Turn 10 purposely made the track wider to create easier racing, according to the official forums.

It's a shame it's so inaccurate, because most other tracks in FM4 appear to be quite accurate. Hopefully in FM5, Turn 10 will create a more accurate Nordschleife.

 

[BarronGeddon]

[DELETED]

 

[GTMail]

You should have used the same cars. That being said the Ring is about 2 minutes slower than GT5 from what I've noticed.

 

[Luminis]

Wouldnt it make the most sense to take a car that is in both games and compare the lap times to the car's real Nürburgring laptimes?

The '08 GT-R would be a possibility, the 458, the Viper SRT-10 ACR would work as far as rather fast cars go, for example, or the Honda NSX, the E92 M3 and the E60 M5 for some midrange stuff. You could go down the performance scale even further, towards the S2000, or the Mk. V Golf GTI.

Laptimes can be found here.

 

[shawtyoner]

Yea, pretty much....

You should do 2 laps in both. Even though GT5 gives you a rolling start, your tires will not be warmed up as they should be. And definitely use the same car, bone stock.

 

[Wolfe]

Yeah...try the same cars, and make sure both are rolling laps (GT5 forces this, right?). Otherwise the test is completely meaningless. By the way, in FM4 you don't have to do two laps, just reverse from the starting line and drive backwards until you pass the curve, then turn around. The lap timer won't start until you cross the line.

However, as it was pointed out already, FM4's Nordschleife isn't and was never intended to be particularly accurate.

 

[shawtyoner]

Yeah...try the same cars, and make sure both are rolling laps (GT5 forces this, right?). Otherwise the test is completely meaningless. By the way, in FM4 you don't have to do two laps, just reverse from the starting line and drive backwards until you pass the curve, then turn around. The lap timer won't start until you cross the line.

However, as it was pointed out already, FM4's Nordschleife isn't and was never intended to be particularly accurate.

Yea thats what I usually do as well, just wanted to be more scientific lol. It is kind of a bummer that we can't get a rolling start in FM4. I know everyone loves standing starts but they are not always needed. Top Gear yes, Nurb no.

 

[BryCivicSi]

You should do 2 laps in both. Even though GT5 gives you a rolling start, your tires will not be warmed up as they should be. And definitely use the same car, bone stock.

Why did anyone not mention this before? Jeez! How can you compare two lap times with different cars, different ways to start, warm tires vs cold tires all while doing this on a long track with lots of turns. Unless you're a robot that can churn out repeatable lap times, I don't see this being a very good test. Sure, if there was a full minute discrepancy AFTER you cleaned up this inconsistencies within your test, I could see a point. But if it comes down to it and you're down 10 seconds over a 8 minute race and you're only counting the two best laps, I don't see a point of an argument. Maybe if you ran a dozen laps after the first warm-up and average the times, maybe just maybe. But are you willing to go that far? EDIT: I just saw your earlier post and you seem a bit turned off spending a minimum of 20 mins doing this test so I guess this aint gunna happen.

BTW, what is the point of this thread? Are you proving there are inconsistencies or that one is better or more real than the other? We all know they're both flawed. And we've been over the debate of which one is more accurate. Check the GT5 vs FM4 thread. There's I bet pages of pages of people going back and forth about this topic and probably a test done that's more accurate than taking a hot hatch against a hybrid.

 

[Wolfe]

Having driven around the real Nordschleife myself, GT5's version is more accurate, no doubt. Also, laptimes introduce a bunch of variables into the mix; physics/tire model, accuracy of vehicle torque curves/etc, driving skill and lack of physical risk...

A virtual car could be faster and much grippier than its real life equivalent, running on an "expanded" and stretched-out version of the Nordschleife, and come up with a true-to-life laptime.

An unrealistic laptime proves something is wrong, but a realistic laptime doesn't prove anything.

 

[imported_JJ72]

over a 7 minute lap Forza can be about 30 sec slower compare to real life laptimes.

 

[zr1chris]

Yes. That will give you the rolling start and the top speed down the straight minimising the differences between the 2.

Couldn't you do the opposite and just stop at the start finish in GT5 before you start the lap so you have a standing start? Or just backup to the line providing the clock restarts once you re-cross the line. That would save almost 10 minutes in testing time.

 

[t.o.]

If the OP is trying to see specifically Nordschleife's lap times in both games then I would say forget it. As been stated before Turn10 made a decision to scale up the track. The track is accurate it's just scaled up. Every turn , dip and elevation is there just scaled up. Now if the OP just wants to test which game comes closer to the realistic lap times then "tests" like these should be saved to tracks like Nurn GP, Suzuka, Tsukuba and other tracks the two games have in common. And also be limited to cars they have in common. Even this is going to be skewed beyond all hell so.

I can tell you both games lap times wouldn't be accurate to my real life time because honestly I wouldn't have the balls to do half the things I do in these games in real life. I don't think I would take ANY car to 170mph+.

 

[artboy76]

As an aside i dislike the Nurb'ring on both games. Just find it dull. massive lap is fun in real life even in a rubbish car..... but dull in game even in a fast supercar.

Just not for me so i dont care how acurate they are...

 

[buickgnx88]

Turn 10 purposely made the track wider to create easier racing, according to the official forums.

It's a shame it's so inaccurate, because most other tracks in FM4 appear to be quite accurate. Hopefully in FM5, Turn 10 will create a more accurate Nordschleife.

As SeaNNyT and X-Power say:

T10 went for the practicality of people racing each other on it. Therefore it's not a precise recreation.

PD went for accurate recreation. Therefore it can get very messy in online races.

That's it basically.

Actually from what I've seen, the basic track is from the PGR series, and T10 worked on it a bit to make it a bit more accurate. However, I could see how they don't fix it all the way to allow for the online racing.

Though, if there is in fact a length discrepancy, then it's dumb that it wasn't fixed to be the correct length.

 

[Ryan81]

Why did anyone not mention this before? Jeez! How can you compare two lap times with different cars, different ways to start, warm tires vs cold tires all while doing this on a long track with lots of turns. Unless you're a robot that can churn out repeatable lap times, I don't see this being a very good test. Sure, if there was a full minute discrepancy AFTER you cleaned up this inconsistencies within your test, I could see a point. But if it comes down to it and you're down 10 seconds over a 8 minute race and you're only counting the two best laps, I don't see a point of an argument. Maybe if you ran a dozen laps after the first warm-up and average the times, maybe just maybe. But are you willing to go that far? EDIT: I just saw your earlier post and you seem a bit turned off spending a minimum of 20 mins doing this test so I guess this aint gunna happen.

BTW, what is the point of this thread? Are you proving there are inconsistencies or that one is better or more real than the other? We all know they're both flawed. And we've been over the debate of which one is more accurate. Check the GT5 vs FM4 thread. There's I bet pages of pages of people going back and forth about this topic and probably a test done that's more accurate than taking a hot hatch against a hybrid.

Didn't realize you're so sensitive to debate

Anyway, I started this thread purely to get other people's views on why this discrepancy was the case. Yes, I realized that Forza had a standing start and GT5 had a rolling start which would have contributed slightly to the different times but as someone kindly pointed out, the version on Forza is 2.5km longer which explains a lot.

 

[Ryan81]

The times will never match due to the fact that forza 4's version is nearly 2.5 Km longer than the real life track. GT5's is more accurate in terms of length.

Thanks 👍

 

[BryCivicSi]

Didn't realize you're so sensitive to debate

you got me. Love the debate turning to a personal attack. not being sensitive but that will get you booted from this place. so take what I mentioned and use it to build a strong caseor don't. but don't make it a personal attack on those who don't share your views.

 

[Luminis]

Anyway, I started this thread purely to get other people's views on why this discrepancy was the case.

Because T10's version isn't accurate and was never meant to be. It hasn't been any different in FM3, either.

/thread?

 

[Nismo34]

You should do 2 laps in both. Even though GT5 gives you a rolling start, your tires will not be warmed up as they should be. And definitely use the same car, bone stock.

You can go backwards and warm up the tyres, provided you dont hit a wall or cut the grass the lap tie will still be valid. Theres the warm tyres solution...

Couldn't you do the opposite and just stop at the start finish in GT5 before you start the lap so you have a standing start? Or just backup to the line providing the clock restarts once you re-cross the line. That would save almost 10 minutes in testing time.

But there is still 1 major flaw... GT5, you start at the pit straight, after the long straight, in FM4, you start on the long straight. The resulting difference is an overall time loss in having to accelerate up to speed in FM4 where as GT5 will have the faster run down the straight and not have to get up to speed...

Another solution would be to pick a part of track, like a line or something thats visible on both, and self-time the lap using a phone, stopwatch or other device to serve the same purpose...

Didn't realize you're so sensitive to debate

Anyway, I started this thread purely to get other people's views on why this discrepancy was the case. Yes, I realized that Forza had a standing start and GT5 had a rolling start which would have contributed slightly to the different times but as someone kindly pointed out, the version on Forza is 2.5km longer which explains a lot.

How is it longer? I'll accept wider (although I really dont see all that much difference in width between GT5 and FM4, its still a pain to overtake) but how is it longer? Do we actually have proof to say it's 2.5km longer?

 

[zr1chris]

But there is still 1 major flaw... GT5, you start at the pit straight, after the long straight, in FM4, you start on the long straight. The resulting difference is an overall time loss in having to accelerate up to speed in FM4 where as GT5 will have the faster run down the straight and not have to get up to speed...

Ahh that's right. I forgot about that. It's been awhile since I popped in GT5.

Another solution would be to pick a part of track, like a line or something thats visible on both, and self-time the lap using a phone, stopwatch or other device to serve the same purpose...

That would work but how do you put down the controller or let go of the wheel with one hand and hit the stop-watch or clock at the same time you cross the line. That can be a bit of a pain.