Oil Alternatives!

[YSSMAN]

Didn't the Saudis say not too long ago that, by their estimates, there was in excess of 100 years worth of oil under the sands and their money piles?

Trust me kids, we're far, far, far, far from running out of oil. Could we begin to see the end of it in my lifetime? I think it is a distinct possibility, but given that I hope to live 100 years or more, I'm positive we would have found an alternative by then.

What we have to worry about is controlling the MPGs achieved in developing-market vehicles, because as we know, Asia will surpass new-car sales of Europe and the US in the not-too-distant future. There are plenty of small things that could be done to make all of our lives a lot easier in this regard, but unfortunately, most people and their governments aren't willing to make even the smallest of sacrifices.

Personally speaking, high gas prices are what this country (The United States) needs right now. It beats inflation down a bit, brings people's ideas of whats "efficient" and "whats not" into perspective, and best of all, it curbs unnecessary driving... In theory of course.

Granted, people piss and moan about things like the Woodward Ave. Dream Cruise and the Grand Rapids Metro Cruise, wasting fuel and the like, but unfortunately for everyone else the car is a part of our culture. While I do attempt to restrict my driving every day, with events such as that, I'm apt to cruising around just as much as the guy in the Corvette, Viper, Torino, Barracuda, etc.

Like I told a fellow classmate the other day when discussing these events: You (Democrats, environmentalists) can take away my car, but you're going to have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.

 

[GT4 genius]

You seriously dont think that us pumping carbon into the air for the last 150yrs isn't enough to effect the climate. Even George Bush agreed with the scientists last year. Ofcourse it has.

 

[Joey D]

You seriously dont think that us pumping carbon into the air for the last 150yrs isn't enough to effect the climate. Even George Bush agreed with the scientists last year. Ofcourse it has.

No I don't think that is the cause because it has been shown that the earth goes through cold spells and hot spells. 150 years is pretty much nothing in the scale of time the earth...or even humans for that matter have been on the planet. The Earth has survived many more destructive things then some carbon in the atmosphere.

 

[YSSMAN]

...Keep in mind our last (minor) cool-down ended right around the time of the French Revolution. There is a fairly well-recorded history of warm-ups and cool-downs throughout history (check geological surveys as well), and while I don't doubt that some of the things we've done have spurred some changes, I don't think it is nearly as dramatic as some believe.

...Remember, these same scientists who say the Earth is warming up were saying that the Earth was cooling down in the late '70s and early '80s...

So, which is it? We really don't know, despite the fact everyone runs around and says we do...

I don't believe either side, personally. But hey, thats just me...

 

[GT4 genius]

The climate is changing, albeit not enough to effect us hughly, some parts are getting cooler and some parts are getting warming, eg in iireland the weather is influenced mainly by the gulf stream. Which is driven by salt water concentrations which nobody truely understands, with vast amounts of artic ice keep melting they may dilute the salt so much so that the current may change course or stop completely, either way this would cause a catatrosphic change in our climate, harbours would be forzen snow would be permanent from earlynovember till late march. it would destroy our economy and could happen in as little as 6 months. This is only one example i'm sure they're hundreds.
So although the earth overall is heating up, i still wouldn't need to invest in a pair of durable sunglasses

 

[Joey D]

So you are saying that the Day After Tomorrow movie could come true? I highly doubt the earth will all of a sudden, excuse the language, s*** itself in a matter of six months.

 

[GT4 genius]

I'm not talking about the whole world i'm taking about an isolated incident in north east europe. I doubt CNN would give it anymore than a last minute sentence at the end of the news if it began to occur.
Even this year the weather extremes were casued by a huge shift of the Jet stream and no one has an explanation for that, or at least i havent heard one. It wasnt even mentioned on any mainstream media

 

[Philly]

I know about the peak theory, it's something they constantly talk about in an economics class. But I don't know how much I believe it. Doomsayers always seem to think our oil will run out tomorrow, but on the same token you have some that believe we will have oil forever. I know we will eventually not be able to use it anymore.

I like being a doomsayer. But still, having oil run out very soon just does not seem likely. We may peak soon, then we will have to think about alternatives to satisfy the difference between supply and demand but it isn't anything to get too worried about just yet. I still think we should consider alternatives now, though. Just to be ready.

I don't think the burning of oil is affecting the climate all that much, we've only been burning fossil fuels for what 150 years? If that even? That's a minor blink in the time span of the earth. People need to realise that the earth's climate goes in cycles. Yes there is global warming, but it's not exactly the result of the motor car.

I know all about the flooding in England, I was in Oxford most of the summer.

The global warming thing is a little iffy. I don't really think we can rule out the burning of fossil fuels as a contributer. The problem with fossil fuels is industry and power, not the automobile. But if fossil fuels are the problem, then we have a huge issue. The rate that the weather has been changing lately is pretty alarming. There is nothing we could do to slow down the change, but fossil fuels would only acccelerate. I'm just not for gambling our planet for the ability to use fossil fuels.

 

[Joey D]

I'm not talking about the whole world i'm taking about an isolated incident in north east europe. I doubt CNN would give it anymore than a last minute sentence at the end of the news if it began to occur.
Even this year the weather extremes were casued by a huge shift of the Jet stream and no one has an explanation for that, or at least i havent heard one. It wasnt even mentioned on any mainstream media

No CNN would glorify it and make it sound like the second coming of Christ because that's how the American media works. And what weather extremes? So England got a lot of rain and parts of America were really dry. It happens, the earth's climate is by no mean predictable at all. Plus the news, any news, would deem a year with a couple more inches of rain a breaking story.

I like being a doomsayer. But still, having oil run out very soon just does not seem likely. We may peak soon, then we will have to think about alternatives to satisfy the difference between supply and demand but it isn't anything to get too worried about just yet. I still think we should consider alternatives now, though. Just to be ready.

Of course we should be looking now, it makes sense to start now because we are closer to the end then to the beginning. Plus oil is still fairly cheap so it's good to nip this problem before is can grow into something bad. People complain about the price of gas, hell even I do it, but if you think about it given inflation it seems about on target to be around $2.75 a gallon.

The global warming thing is a little iffy. I don't really think we can rule out the burning of fossil fuels as a contributer. The problem with fossil fuels is industry and power, not the automobile. But if fossil fuels are the problem, then we have a huge issue. The rate that the weather has been changing lately is pretty alarming. There is nothing we could do to slow down the change, but fossil fuels would only acccelerate. I'm just not for gambling our planet for the ability to use fossil fuels

Does it contribute? Maybe, but only very slightly since there are many other things that produce "harmful" gases. We've all heard about the cow farts that put more methane into the air, which is more harmful then C02 out of the car. It's hard to say, there are hundreds, if not thousands of factors. The only reason I say we start the change from fossil fuels to other forms is due to cost effectiveness to run things.

 

[GT4 genius]

Of course we should be looking now, it makes sense to start now because we are closer to the end then to the beginning. Plus oil is still fairly cheap so it's good to nip this problem before is can grow into something bad.

This is probably the only thing i agree with you on. But petrol prices hear aren't that cheap it is €1.20 a litre thats €5.52 a galleon and €1 = $1.33 therefore our petrol is $7.34 a galleon.

 

[Joey D]

This is probably the only thing i agree with you on. But petrol prices hear aren't that cheap it is €1.20 a litre thats €5.52 a galleon and €1 = $1.33 therefore our petrol is $7.34 a galleon.

One thing that really bugs me about Europeans is that you guys feel the need to convert it to dollars. The dollar is really weak right now so of course it's going to seem high...here is the real question, how much higher is it now then it was say 10 years ago in Europe?

 

[Philly]

So you are saying that the Day After Tomorrow movie could come true? I highly doubt the earth will all of a sudden, excuse the language, s*** itself in a matter of six months.

If we were really going to get ourselves into trouble, it would probably be in the form of desertification and more drastic changes in precipitation. Maybe we'll see the mid-west lose some productivity, or the west coast could see more rain (as suspiciously happened this year; it never rains in the summer.)

I'm not talking about the whole world i'm taking about an isolated incident in north east europe. I doubt CNN would give it anymore than a last minute sentence at the end of the news if it began to occur.
Even this year the weather extremes were casued by a huge shift of the Jet stream and no one has an explanation for that, or at least i havent heard one. It wasnt even mentioned on any mainstream media

We have been having mroe minor incidents all over the US. A huge heat wave has apparently hit good portions of the country. It's been raining all summer in Seattle, where it rains maybe two or three days in the summer. We also had a few huge storms, which rarely hit, including a snowstorm bigger than anything since 1996.

Does it contribute? Maybe, but only very slightly since there are many other things that produce "harmful" gases. We've all heard about the cow farts that put more methane into the air, which is more harmful then C02 out of the car. It's hard to say, there are hundreds, if not thousands of factors. The only reason I say we start the change from fossil fuels to other forms is due to cost effectiveness to run things.

The only thing that makes me wonder is the fact that we have been dumping greenhouse gases into the atmosphere for hundreds of years. Why are we only experiencing such abnormal weather now?

 

[GT4 genius]

One thing that really bugs me about Europeans is that you guys feel the need to convert it to dollars. The dollar is really weak right now so of course it's going to seem high...here is the real question, how much higher is it now then it was say 10 years ago in Europe?

I was only showing it in easily comparable figures anyway its irrelevant we are taxed a huge amount of it

We are keed of getting of the point here so please try not to.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, lets keep going with the gas price thing for a moment...

The last "official" gas price comparison with taxes (and other add-ons) considered in various markets, I want to say it was roughly $6.30 a gallon in the UK versus roughly $3 a gallon here in the US. The figures were taken before the little hurricane spat we had, not to mention the major flooding here in the Mid-West, but I seriously doubt the figures would be altered that much (collectively) since June.

Really, gas prices still are not high enough for people to look for a serious alternative to regular gasoline. Sure, plenty of people complain about $3 a gallon (my first fill-up in 2003 was less than $1.50 a gallon), but it still isn't enough to convince people to outright stop buying SUVs, limit their driving and thusly fuel consumption, or otherwise consider alternative fuels for their vehicles. Given that diesel is now, in some cases, nearly $0.50 cheaper than gasoline, its gaining in popularity given its price and overall economy improvements.

...But until we hit $4-5 a gallon, I doubt anything serious will ever change...

 

[Prosthetic]

Well it really does depend where your at. Out in the boondocks of Oregon it was $2.50-2.70.... Thats about a full $1 cheaper then it is hear in the richy bitchy area of California...

So it really depends how far you are away from a major town/city or in decently sized town. And how much money people have in the area.

 

[Philly]

Really, gas prices still are not high enough for people to look for a serious alternative to regular gasoline. Sure, plenty of people complain about $3 a gallon (my first fill-up in 2003 was less than $1.50 a gallon), but it still isn't enough to convince people to outright stop buying SUVs, limit their driving and thusly fuel consumption, or otherwise consider alternative fuels for their vehicles. Given that diesel is now, in some cases, nearly $0.50 cheaper than gasoline, its gaining in popularity given its price and overall economy improvements.

...But until we hit $4-5 a gallon, I doubt anything serious will ever change...

I can see the changes start to happen. For one thing, the Prius was the 9th best selling car in America in May. And driving around at night, you could tell that there were far less cars on the road than usual. Now, it isn't much, but you can really tell. Especially in Seattle where the roads are just plugged with hybrids.

 

[Joey D]

Until America realise that they need to invest money into public transportation people will continue to keep their cars. I don't understand why we can't have a decent train system in America.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

Let's convert fat people into energy. It'll kill two birds with one stone.

 

[Joey D]

Let's convert fat people into energy. It'll kill two birds with one stone.

America would have a monopoly on the world's energy supply .

 

[YSSMAN]

I can see the changes start to happen. For one thing, the Prius was the 9th best selling car in America in May. And driving around at night, you could tell that there were far less cars on the road than usual. Now, it isn't much, but you can really tell. Especially in Seattle where the roads are just plugged with hybrids.

Bah, Priuses are for wagon-hoping Democrats. Thats why you don't see them too often around here (Holland, Grand Rapids, etc). As a matter of fact, you don't see many foreign-market cars at all, as I'm sure you've noticed by now. Oddly enough, however, there are a lot of Volkswagens out here. Holland has to have one of the highest "indie" VW dealer rates anywhere in the country...

 

[Joey D]

Bah, Priuses are for wagon-hoping Democrats. Thats why you don't see them too often around here (Holland, Grand Rapids, etc). As a matter of fact, you don't see many foreign-market cars at all, as I'm sure you've noticed by now. Oddly enough, however, there are a lot of Volkswagens out here. Holland has to have one of the highest "indie" VW dealer rates anywhere in the country...

Not to mention Priuses or would it be Prii (Pre-eye?) aren't as eco-friendly as everyone seems to think. Car's made of all plastic and has a lot of nickel in the batteries, which as I've said destroys the earth when it's mined.

 

[YSSMAN]

Hence the reason why I give every Prius I see the bird when I blow them away in my Jetta...

 

[Philly]

Until America realise that they need to invest money into public transportation people will continue to keep their cars. I don't understand why we can't have a decent train system in America.

Probably something to do with a lack of funding. And maybe the population density of the place plays a role. Trains have worked wonders in Europe, and I don't know why American's have realized this enough to support some kind of mass transit that doesn't clog our streets.

Let's convert fat people into energy. It'll kill two birds with one stone.

There is a lot of energy there. Maybe we could hook things up to fat people. Run a lamp off your belly.

Bah, Priuses are for wagon-hoping Democrats. Thats why you don't see them too often around here (Holland, Grand Rapids, etc). As a matter of fact, you don't see many foreign-market cars at all, as I'm sure you've noticed by now. Oddly enough, however, there are a lot of Volkswagens out here. Holland has to have one of the highest "indie" VW dealer rates anywhere in the country...

I noticed that and was really happy. I hate them earth-muffin mobiles. I usually cut thm off and hit the gas so Itake off and shoot a huge black cloud ono their car. We are very different out there. Apparently there was a Farenheit at that dealer. Number 160 or something.

 

[Joey D]

Probably something to do with a lack of funding. And maybe the population density of the place plays a role. Trains have worked wonders in Europe, and I don't know why American's have realized this enough to support some kind of mass transit that doesn't clog our streets.

Well we have public transportation, and if you ever get to this side of the state you will probably go into Detroit, there are buses but they are nasty and you fear for your life most of the time and there is this monorail thing that sort of works when it feels like it. I don't understand why we just don fund them more.

The only places I can take a train to is Chicago or Toronto as far as I know.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Meh, today on my way from school using the train, I had to sit behind a drunken bum.

 

[Philly]

Well we have public transportation, and if you ever get to this side of the state you will probably go into Detroit, there are buses but they are nasty and you fear for your life most of the time and there is this monorail thing that sort of works when it feels like it. I don't understand why we just don fund them more.

The only places I can take a train to is Chicago or Toronto as far as I know.

We have buses too in Seattle. The only problem is that they can hardly make it up the hills and they pretty much close the right lane of every road because they have to stop every other block. And the bus is really scary. That's where all the hobos and scary people hang out. And we have a monorail that actually goes places, too bad nobody needs to go between the two. And we have a light rail coming out of downtown southward that will open in 2009. And yes, IT EVEN GOES TO THE AIRPORT! I was shocked. It was supposed to stop a mile short.

Personally, I think the biggest obstacle to a relatively efficient mass transit is the fear of taxes we have going on around here. A little more money and we could have some amazing stuff going up.

 

[BayConRong]

We have buses too in Seattle. The only problem is that they can hardly make it up the hills and they pretty much close the right lane of every road because they have to stop every other block. And the bus is really scary. That's where all the hobos and scary people hang out. And we have a monorail that actually goes places, too bad nobody needs to go between the two. And we have a light rail coming out of downtown southward that will open in 2009. And yes, IT EVEN GOES TO THE AIRPORT! I was shocked. It was supposed to stop a mile short.

Personally, I think the biggest obstacle to a relatively efficient mass transit is the fear of taxes we have going on around here. A little more money and we could have some amazing stuff going up.

meh ya we got monorail but it's a POS that they are usualy too chiken to fix so we get these eyesores of tracks that are above the road that you hope and pray never break down cause then they will never get fixed. personally i think that we could actually switch the public transportation to fully electric if we ever find a way to get out of selling electricity to california and make them get off thier rears and make thier own electricity. we make absurd amount of extra kilowats that we get from the columbia R.


Edit: you have to remember that compared to New York, with thier underground transit, we are a very new city most of our buildings that we think ned to be demolished are on par with a lot of new york. it was created when there were a fair amount of cars but not too many and over 20 years or less the amount of cars in washington alone has probably grown by over 2000. and only now are we, washingtonians, thinking about changing the transit, by adding our decrepid monorail.

 

[GT4 genius]

Not to mention Priuses or would it be Prii (Pre-eye?) aren't as eco-friendly as everyone seems to think. Car's made of all plastic and has a lot of nickel in the batteries, which as I've said destroys the earth when it's mined.

Wow, we're agreeing on alot of things now. Prii aren't as eco-friendly as a hummer, becuse like Joey D said the nickel has to be mined and they have to be srapped far sooner than any hummer, so although a prius might work out cheaper for the consumer they aren't even a short term solution, this is why i didn't even put them in my poll.

 

[FoolKiller]

The highly rated encarta encyclopidia belives that there is only 34yrs of oil left in the ground. Now say that only 50% of this is being tapped then theres 17 yrs left. Then say all the easy bits are used within the next 10yrs, then surely oil production will begin to fall as current rates can't be maintained due to the slow and difficult process it would be to produce this oil. And peak oil dosen't mean no oil, heres the definition:

You do realize that in the 1970s they told us we would be out (not peaked, out) by 2000 right? We keep finding oil, developing technology to reach the stuff we couldn't before and are even developing technologies to pull it from other fossil forms (shale). Heck we even have an experimental plant working to produce it from biological waste, like turkey offal. Peak oil has been a lame scare tactic that the same people have been quoting for years and refuse to explain why they keep having to push back their date.

Yes these are worse case senarios but we still have to start acting, look at the climate change crises not enough was done and now its practically too late.

Oh noes, are weeza gonna die?

Western and southern europe have all seen the hottest summer on record, greece is actually on fire and nothern europe has seen one of the wettest summers on record, midland england was flooded for several weeks.

Last year Texas (hot, arid southern state) had a record snowfall. This summer New York had a record low high temperature. That must be global cooling right? I am in a drought, but just a few hundred miles north it is flooding. Individual instances mean nothing on a global scale. We are comparing data that is only 150 years old, at best. Are you going to tell me that the dinosaurs lived in colder climates? Or maybe explain how the Sahara went from lush forests to desert before the industrial age. The climate moves around all kinds of crazy ways and crazy things happen with it. That is the nature of the Earth.

In recent years american hurricane seasons have been so bad they've knocked out oil supplies and shown the country how bad peak oil will be, winter 2005-2006 hurricane Julie.

I don't know who/what Hurricane Julie is, but it was Katrina that devastated oil supplies, and that was just because it hit a city people had been warning about their sub-sea level building since before global warming was a thought. A Google search for Hurricane Julie presents a band.

I suddenly doubt all of your sources.

And just to add to the hurricane fire: Last year was a relatively slow hurricane season and this years has so far been below predictions, which have been revised twice now. The National Hurricane Center said recent hurricane activity, regarding Katrina, was part of a natural cycle of hurricanes increasing and decreasing, not global warming.

Thanks for trying, please play again, preferably in the Global Warming thread.

Even George Bush agreed with the scientists last year.

Wait, I thought George Bush was an idiot.

Not to mention Priuses or would it be Prii (Pre-eye?)

I just call it a Pious. So, Piouses?

so although a prius might work out cheaper for the consumer they aren't even a short term solution, this is why i didn't even put them in my poll.

They work out cheaper for the customer? With the cost difference between them and an equivalent sized car it will take ten years to make up the difference in gas, and most people won't keep a car that long.



I suggest we keep this about alternatives, and not global warming, as that already has a thread and drifting this thread off topic will get it shut down or merged.

 

[Famine]

Thanks for trying, please play again, preferably in the Global Warming thread.


I suggest we keep this about alternatives, and not global warming, as that already has a thread and drifting this thread off topic will get it shut down or merged.

Agreed. While there's some crossover when talking about alternative fuels if you accept Anthropogenic Climate Change as genuine, we need to refrain from sudden in-depth discussions about things like "Global Warming" when there are already threads for that very purpose.