Oklahoma Tornado

[Omnis]

Yep, sending a tornado to wreak havoc and kill people. The very definition of good.

That's not what he was referring to. Please don't start in, or I'll be handing out more infractions.

 

[Carbonox]

That's not what he was referring to. Please don't start in, or I'll be handing out more infractions.

He had a valid point though, but maybe that fits better in another thread...

 

[Omnis]

He said thank god another's family was OK. Do not start in.

 

[Encyclopedia]

He said thank god another's family was OK. Do not start in.

I didn't realize that as he didn't quote. Still an odd thing to say but yeah, another thread.

I apologize.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I didn't realize that as he didn't quote. Still an odd thing to say but yeah, another thread.

I apologize.

Reminds me of this that's been making the rounds today:

 

[Pit Crew]

Reminds me of this that's been making the rounds today:

Awkward moment for Wolf right there.

Stay safe out there people.

 

[Pupik]

^ 💡 Out of the wreckage.

Also, the kid's a microphone fiend.

 

[disinfected]

The support that is coming in from different places around the country is amazing. The issue now is keeping looters and scammers away. Unfortunately, using disaster for personal gain is more prevalent than you might thing.

 

[Brett]

A post I made elsewhere on GTP:

Hello everyone. Yes, still alive but just on one of my enforced GTP breaks so I can concentrate on work. Hope no-one in the Oklahoma City region was badly affected by the tornado. Isn't Brett from around there?

I am indeed from the area. I pulled up some data from the National Weather Service yesterday. The closest point of that the tornado came to the house was right around 2,000 feet away. The yard and roof have a decent amount of debris on them. Power was restored to the house yesterday. Running water was back up two days ago. I had been staying with my grandparents. I drew the short straw and had to sleep on the floor for both nights I stayed over there. My sister and parents were also staying there. My grandparents only have one spare bed and one couch big enough to sleep on. So I was able to sleep in my own bed last night, which was nice.

First world problem incoming! The cable company has not restored service to the house yet. I tried tethering my phone to the laptop so I could watch last night's Heat/Pacers game, but apparently Verizon did not like that and throttled the data.

Tornado Map

The link above is to a map with National Weather Service's data overlaid. If you click on the triangles, then some additional information will pop up with some also having pictures. I found one of the pictures amusing because someone has a sense of humor.

You can also see the bank's vault in the background. I found a story on Reddit yesterday about the vault. There were 15 people in the vault when the tornado came through and all survived.

I drove my normal route home yesterday and that route runs through the east end of the damage. I had a hard time recognizing the area. There is basically not much left. It was incredibly sad to see people sifting through the wreckage trying to find anything salvagable.

 

[homeforsummer]

Right, something I have to ask, with very little personal experience/knowledge of the subject:

Noticed that a heck of a lot of the houses on the news reports seem to have been made largely of wood. Is there a reason, particularly in tornado alley, that this practice is so common? I would have thought that even under a tornado that houses would have a little more chance of remaining intact if they weren't constructed from wood. What prompted me to think such a thing was seeing an otherwise-destroyed family home on the news with a completely intact decorative brick arch above the front door.

I also realise, from the picture posted above alone, that there's only so much you can do - since there are metal girders and bricks looking rather damaged there. The other thing, purely speculatively, is that I'd marginally prefer to have a relatively light wooden house fall on top of me than a comparatively heavy brick one do so.

But is there a good reason for the wood > brick thing? Is it simply cost? Just better to have a sturdy hurricane shelter and let the rest of the house take a beating each time?

 

[playnthru]

This partly answers your question I think sir.http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2011/05/25/6717757-why-dont-oklahoma-houses-have-basements?lite

 

[CodeRedR51]

But is there a good reason for the wood > brick thing? Is it simply cost? Just better to have a sturdy hurricane shelter and let the rest of the house take a beating each time?

I'm not sure how the US compares to other parts of the world, but a large majority of the houses constructed here are made from wood. I don't think there's much you can do to save the house in this particular situation, but what needs to happen is that all houses in tornado alley NEED to have some sort of tornado shelter built in. Whether it's under ground or a concrete room, new home purchasers need to have that option when they are building their house.

 

[homeforsummer]

This partly answers your question I think sir.http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2011/05/25/6717757-why-dont-oklahoma-houses-have-basements?lite

Thanks, that's pretty interesting 👍 Wonder if that soft land would also make creating suitable footings for a stronger house more problematic?

I'm not sure how the US compares to other parts of the world, but a large majority of the houses constructed here are made from wood. I don't think there's much you can do to save the house in this particular situation, but what needs to happen is that all houses in tornado alley NEED to have some sort of tornado shelter built in. Whether it's under ground or a concrete room, new home purchasers need to have that option when they are building their house.

Yeah, I've noticed that before about many U.S. houses are wood, though it usually becomes most apparent when they're all in pieces after a tornado, or when the whole thing turns to ashes during a forest fire.

Agreed though, tornados tend to be above the usual levels of punishment a house would cope with. Tornado shelters are definitely a good idea.

 

[Keef]

Right, something I have to ask, with very little personal experience/knowledge of the subject:

Noticed that a heck of a lot of the houses on the news reports seem to have been made largely of wood. Is there a reason, particularly in tornado alley, that this practice is so common? I would have thought that even under a tornado that houses would have a little more chance of remaining intact if they weren't constructed from wood. What prompted me to think such a thing was seeing an otherwise-destroyed family home on the news with a completely intact decorative brick arch above the front door.

I also realise, from the picture posted above alone, that there's only so much you can do - since there are metal girders and bricks looking rather damaged there. The other thing, purely speculatively, is that I'd marginally prefer to have a relatively light wooden house fall on top of me than a comparatively heavy brick one do so.

But is there a good reason for the wood > brick thing? Is it simply cost? Just better to have a sturdy hurricane shelter and let the rest of the house take a beating each time?

Most of it is cost. These days, most newly-built middle-class houses with one or two floors are framed with wood here in Ohio. Some of them might have a brick facade for texture but that's it. Various types of brick are common for custom-built houses, but those are typically more expensive and built by higher-income people who can afford it. Even many wealthy houses are wood-framed with stucco or thin brick facades, not structural at all. My currently middle-class neighborhood was built in the 70s as part of a higher-end home show event and is a mixture of brick and wood. One house across from me has structural brick on the first floor with wood on the second. Almost all of them are a combination, with a few either being all wood or all brick.

Because these days structural brick is so expensive, and because any house is likely to be damaged in tornado alley, it's just more feasible in the long run to use wood. It's cheaper for the builders, buyers, and insurance companies.

I think it was TB who worked for a construction company and might be able to shed more light on it. I can only speculate with what I know about my area.

 

[GTsail]

*snip*Whether it's under ground or a concrete room, new home purchasers need to have that option when they are building their house.

For new construction, safe-rooms have been an option for some time, but the cost of the safe-rooms has been high enough to discourage wide-spread acceptance. I imagine that its likely that more new construction in Oklahoma will have safe-rooms installed, at least in towns that don't already have some sort of community-wide storm shelter.

Last night, I think on CNN, they interviewed someone from OZ Saferooms Tech (you've got to love the name) who stated that their smaller safe-rooms cost between $4k and $8k, so the cost should be within reach for many if they wish to have such a room in their house.

Respectfully,
GTsail

 

[homeforsummer]

Most of it is cost. These days, most newly-built middle-class houses with one or two floors are framed with wood here in Ohio. Some of them might have a brick facade for texture but that's it. Various types of brick are common for custom-built houses, but those are typically more expensive and built by higher-income people who can afford it. Even many wealthy houses are wood-framed with stucco or thin brick facades, not structural at all. My currently middle-class neighborhood was built in the 70s as part of a higher-end home show event and is a mixture of brick and wood. One house across from me has structural brick on the first floor with wood on the second. Almost all of them are a combination, with a few either being all wood or all brick.

Because these days structural brick is so expensive, and because any house is likely to be damaged in tornado alley, it's just more feasible in the long run to use wood. It's cheaper for the builders, buyers, and insurance companies.

I think it was TB who worked for a construction company and might be able to shed more light on it. I can only speculate with what I know about my area.

Nice one, thanks for the insight 👍 That makes sense actually. Particularly with regards to insurance costs if the house has a high chance of getting flattened in a tornado.

And the use of brick pretty much everywhere in the UK probably partly explains why our houses are so damn expensive.

 

[Rage Racer]

Why so many victims? Weren't people warned about the tornado incoming?

 

[Dotini]

The folks in Moore had more warning than is common.

The soil in this part of the state has too much clay and water to permit basements, so the homes typically do not have underground shelters.

The tornado lingered on the ground for half and hour or so, I guess. Typically it's much less than that. A tornado stayed on the ground for over three hours back in the 1920's, and reaped about 675 lives.

 

[Keef]

Nice one, thanks for the insight 👍 That makes sense actually. Particularly with regards to insurance costs if the house has a high chance of getting flattened in a tornado.

And the use of brick pretty much everywhere in the UK probably partly explains why our houses are so damn expensive.

I've never visited but from what I can tell the UK isn't and probably was never the most heavily forested area. It's rather amazing how quickly the trees disappear once people start building things with them, and that's how my area is full of city where it used to be nothing but dense forest. I imagine an eventual scarcity of trees had something to do with your historical stone and brick construction.

 

[Brett]

Thanks, that's pretty interesting 👍 Wonder if that soft land would also make creating suitable footings for a stronger house more problematic?

The clay soil is very problematic. Clay soil shrinks and swells depending on the water content present in the soil. Add water to the soil and the clay will heave (expand). Take water away and the clay will settle (shrink).

This article pretty well covers the topic in a general manner without getting into too much detail.

Why so many victims? Weren't people warned about the tornado incoming?

Considering the magnitude of the storm and the path the tornado took, it is wonderful that there were not more victims.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm not sure how the US compares to other parts of the world, but a large majority of the houses constructed here are made from wood. I don't think there's much you can do to save the house in this particular situation, but what needs to happen is that all houses in tornado alley NEED to have some sort of tornado shelter built in. Whether it's under ground or a concrete room, new home purchasers need to have that option when they are building their house.

Do they not already have that option? What's preventing people currently from adding shelters to existing or new homes other than money?

The clay soil is very problematic. Clay soil shrinks and swells depending on the water content present in the soil. Add water to the soil and the clay will heave (expand). Take water away and the clay will settle (shrink).

This article pretty well covers the topic in a general manner without getting into too much detail.

Sounds like someone ought to come to Windsor and ask a few questions. Pop. 200,000, 99% of the homes built on pure clay soil as far as you can dig, probably 80-85% of them with full basements.

 

[Brett]

Sounds like someone ought to come to Windsor and ask a few questions. Pop. 200,000, 99% of the homes built on pure clay soil as far as you can dig, probably 80-85% of them with full basements.

It's not an issue of needing to go anywhere to talk to anyone. The problem is developers/contractors do not want to pay for the additional cost that goes into putting in a basement.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It's not an issue of needing to go anywhere to talk to anyone. The problem is developers/contractors do not want to pay for the additional cost that goes into putting in a basement.

Developers/contractors don't want to add a feature to homes they can profit from? Maybe it's different in Oklahoma, but up here in Windsor, we don't build homes for the most part, unless they are already sold. I know several people in the construction business and I can guarantee you that if the customer says, "I will give you $$$$ to add this to the house" , not a one of them will say no. I don't understand why a contractor would not want to add features to a home he can profit from and someone else is paying for it.

 

[Rage Racer]

Considering the magnitude of the storm and the path the tornado took, it is wonderful that there were not more victims.

I get it. But was there a way to evacuate them before?

 

[Northstar]

I get it. But was there a way to evacuate them before?

If you are lucky, you may get about 10 minutes of warning. Most of the time it's less and tornado's can move extremely fast and in unpredictable patterns. The last thing you want to do during a tornado is try and evacuate.

 

[Brett]

Developers/contractors don't want to add a feature to homes they can profit from? Maybe it's different in Oklahoma, but up here in Windsor, we don't build homes for the most part, unless they are already sold. I know several people in the construction business and I can guarantee you that if the customer says, "I will give you $$$$ to add this to the house" , not a one of them will say no. I don't understand why a contractor would not want to add features to a home he can profit from and someone else is paying for it.

Oklahoma is not a rich state. The state ranks near the bottom of the U.S. in terms of median income. Pieces of land are mostly plentiful, money to spend to build and develop is not.

Many subdivisions are built and the houses sold afterwards. The addition of a basement is going to add quite a bit of extra cost to a house. That additional cost could be very tough to recoup if the house sits unsold because it is so much more expensive than other houses in the surrounding area. The developer/contractor is going to be eating the costs for materials/labor while that house goes unsold and many are not willing to do that for more than a very short period of time.

Now with regards to new construction where the house is sold before construction, a contractor is going to be more than willing to do whatever the owner want. If the owner wants a basement and pays accordingly, then that contractor is going to be more than willing to construct a basement.

This article provides more information on why storm cellars and basements are rare.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Oklahoma is not a rich state. The state ranks near the bottom of the U.S. in terms of median income. Pieces of land are mostly plentiful, money to spend to build and develop is not.

Many subdivisions are built and the houses sold afterwards. The addition of a basement is going to add quite a bit of extra cost to a house. That additional cost could be very tough to recoup if the house sits unsold because it is so much more expensive than other houses in the surrounding area. The developer/contractor is going to be eating the costs for materials/labor while that house goes unsold and many are not willing to do that for more than a very short period of time.

Now with regards to new construction where the house is sold before construction, a contractor is going to be more than willing to do whatever the owner want. If the owner wants a basement and pays accordingly, then that contractor is going to be more than willing to construct a basement.

This article provides more information on why storm cellars and basements are rare.

As explained by The Atlantic’s Megan Garber. the porous, red clay-based soil found in much of Oklahoma isn’t exactly conducive to basement-building:

Here's the problem with that when it comes to building basements and underground shelters: Clay is particularly fickle as a foundation for construction. When loamy soils absorb rainwater, they expand. And when the weather's dry, they contract. This inevitable and yet largely unpredictable variability makes basement-building a particular challenge, since it makes it nearly impossible to establish firm foundations for underground construction

If I'm reading that right, she's equating clay soils to loamy soils when they are nearly the opposite. Loamy soil is soft and crumbly, ideal garden soil and absorbs water like a sponge. Clay soil is hard as a rock when dry, sticky when wet and nearly impervious to water. In Windsor, most people are lucky to have 6" of top soil and then red clay as far as you can dig. Maybe Kansas clay is different than Windsor clay, but as I said, most homes here have basements and drainage is generally not an issue, neither is basement walls cracking or caving in. Not having the money to put in a storm shelfter or basement I can understand, the engineering aspect of it I'm not getting.

 

[Keef]

As explained by The Atlantic’s Megan Garber. the porous, red clay-based soil found in much of Oklahoma isn’t exactly conducive to basement-building:

Here's the problem with that when it comes to building basements and underground shelters: Clay is particularly fickle as a foundation for construction. When loamy soils absorb rainwater, they expand. And when the weather's dry, they contract. This inevitable and yet largely unpredictable variability makes basement-building a particular challenge, since it makes it nearly impossible to establish firm foundations for underground construction

If I'm reading that right, she's equating clay soils to loamy soils when they are nearly the opposite. Loamy soil is soft and crumbly, ideal garden soil and absorbs water like a sponge. Clay soil is hard as a rock when dry, sticky when wet and nearly impervious to water.

I can't explain why clay is suggested as the dominant part of loam soil. It's usually a small proportion.

Another aspect is the weather. OKC is generally much warmer than Windsor or my area, averaging 95 in the summer and barely below freezing in winter. During the spring they get occasional monsoon-like rains which saturate the soil very quickly, then subsides leaving the soil relatively dry by the time the next supercell rolls over. Here in Dayton, and I'm sure in Windsor, we have a more broad rainy season without nearly as much extremes of wet and dry.

I'm not sure what your point of arguing is. When it comes down to it, the cost and importance of basements apparently doesn't outweigh the economic benefit or else they'd be all over the place.

 

[BobK]

When it comes down to it, the cost and importance of basements apparently doesn't outweigh the economic benefit or else they'd be all over the place.

And that sums it up, in a nutshell.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm not sure what your point of arguing is. When it comes down to it, the cost and importance of basements apparently doesn't outweigh the economic benefit or else they'd be all over the place.

Actually that is my point. The engineering of basements, the contractors unwilling to put them in is just a red herring issue with the media. If people wanted them they would be there but people are deciding that the incredibly tall odds of being killed in a tornado generally aren't worth the added investment of the storm shelter or basement.