Online vs. GT Sport...?

[KingFrog]

Now first I did say arguably. However they offer a wider ranges of race series, running very frequently, with a better ranking system giving arguably better matched results and cleaner racing. Sufficient time is given to have a final qualify (unlike the out lap and little else that GTS manages).



Who's to say they are not considering it? I'm sure just about every racing dev is.

We are talking about matchmaking. Name me one game that does it better . I will wait, as long as it takes you to find this non-existant game. Heck the new cod takes eons to match you up and the disparity is still evident. Also I racing doesn't have a better system, it is a prime example of selection bias. People who pay 15$ a month to race aren't going to drive like maniacs and are already heavily invested in sim racing. Taking that into account polyphony has them beat by a large margin.

 

[Scaff]

We are talking about matchmaking. Name me one game that does it better . I will wait, as long as it takes you to find this non-existant game.

First thing, drop the attitude, it's not going to serve you well.

R6S in ranked matches, Overwatch, any of the old Halo titles.

That's off the top of my head and all do a better job of matching skill than GTS does. That's not to say GTS is bad at it (which is what you seem to be reading any point that doesn't praise GTS over anything as), but I've still had a number of races in

Heck the new cod takes eons to match you up and the disparity is still evident.

Nice strawman.

Also I racing doesn't have a better system, it is a prime example of selection bias. People who pay 15$ a month to race aren't going to drive like maniacs and are already heavily invested in sim racing.

I don't subscribe to iRacing, as such accusation if confirmation bias is not valid. I also used the qualifier 'arguably' and then repeated it in the post you just quoted. As such I'm not sure how you missed that!

I've not said iRacing is definitively better in this regard, but that it arguably has elements to it that people could see as better. As such you are arguing a point I never made.

Taking that into account polyphony has them beat by a large margin.

Don't move the goalposts.

 

[CodeCmdr]

What many have issue with in regard to GTS online is not the matchmaking, but the penalty system. Which does still need further work.

It is really good now. People who bump into you from behind do not penalize you any more, and if they get a time penalty for it, you even get feedback from the UI about that. In PCars2, you only get SR feedback at the end of the race.

 

[Scaff]

It is really good now. People who bump into you from behind do not penalize you any more, and if they get a time penalty for it, you even get feedback from the UI about that. In PCars2, you only get SR feedback at the end of the race.

I've tried it and while it's better, it still has a lot of room for improvement.

I'm not a big fan of knowing how it affects your overall SR during the race, the lack of any sanction above a slowdown that can still be easily games is still a big miss.

It's also done nothing to stop draft bumping people off the track, it can still be easily done and penalty free.

Nor do I believe that the tweaking they are doing will have any major affect when it's so easy to gain back SR. Those who want to game it can do easily, particularly for the FIA events, as you can get to the top SR rating within a few hours, get ranked with clean racers and take them out with less than clean tactics. Knowing full well that getting back to a high SR is quick and easy to do.

Top level SR should be damn hard to get to and require an almost zen like approach to keep, that would then mean something. Make SR easier to lose than it is to gain would be an excellent start, and a much needed change.

However the quandary that PD has, is that doing so will potentially turn off those who like to game systems in this way. I've said it before, if PD are not careful and quick in fixing this it will become a core mechanic of GTS online, just as quickscoping and dropshots have for COD.

 

[Foxis]

@Scaff :
You seem to be a fairly big advocate for PC2 over GTS and share my opinion regarding the GTS penalty system and current community behaviour.
So, a question for you (and anyone else that wants to chime in):
How do you play PC2? Offline only? Licensed random lobbies? Or as part of a series/league? And I am assuming you and most here use the PS4 version?

Reason I ask is as I mentioned earlier my attempt to find a good alternative. I am not bound to the PS4 either, I have a fairly powerful PC rig + a Oculus DK2. Think I mentioned before I used to race in iRacing, and am considering that as an alternative. But it has its drawbacks. Not entirely fond of their physics model (too icy) and getting a good field in iRacing is not always easy either.

So PC2 on the PC looks like a good alternativ, if there are good series to be found...?

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff :
You seem to be a fairly big advocate for PC2 over GTS and share my opinion regarding the GTS penalty system and current community behaviour.
So, a question for you (and anyone else that wants to chime in):
How do you play PC2? Offline only? Licensed random lobbies? Or as part of a series/league? And I am assuming you and most here use the PS4 version?

Reason I ask is as I mentioned earlier my attempt to find a good alternative. I am not bound to the PS4 either, I have a fairly powerful PC rig + a Oculus DK2. Think I mentioned before I used to race in iRacing, and am considering that as an alternative. But it has its drawbacks. Not entirely fond of their physics model (too icy) and getting a good field in iRacing is not always easy either.

So PC2 on the PC looks like a good alternativ, if there are good series to be found...?

Most of my play on PC2 is in either random lobbies or races set-up on the fly with friends, as well as off-line against the AI (its almost identical with AC in this regard as well). I also, when i have the time, will set-up lobbies and leave them open to see who arrives in PC2, as I've actually had some very good, clean racing when doing so as long as I stick to races with licences and penalties enabled and run stuff like Formula rookie, Ginetta's older TCs, TCs, (so anything but GT3). The grid tend to fill up quickly like this as well, and can be padded well enough with AI in addition.

While PC2 does have a very good range of leagues and race series running on it, I personally don;t have the time with work and family to be able to commit to them.

Its why I would love for all racing titles to have a iR/GTS style matchmaking system in place, as its the missing 'bit' between random lobbies and running in dedicated leagues.

 

[Gr8_Lakes]

Unfortunately, Project Cars 2's public online experience has (somewhat) turned into a fishing expedition. Hosts are setting up races to improve their license scores. With the multitude of options that a host can choose when it comes to seasons and weather, it's turned into a "Let's see what idiot will join our race, and not know that he needs to be on wet tires in lap two." It's something that SMS could easily overcome. SMS could make the race settings obvious once you're in the lobby/session. Why can you only look at the race settings prior to joining the session? Especially when you're in a hurry because there's a time limit to join the session? And then you can't see what the race settings are any more once you've joined the session. "Whoa... you want to know what the race settings for the race you joined are? Sorry pal, you should've thought about that before you joined this race." Okay, but that doesn't lead to a very popular online race lobby. Just my thoughts.

 

[Foxis]

But surely there must be dedicated online communities such as this one but with more of a PC2 focus that allow people to add friends / join lobbies based on similar preferences? Granted, not as slick as GTS matchmaking, but if it leads to more quality racing without the drawbacks of GTS then I'd be all for it.

 

[Harry Freq]

But surely there must be dedicated online communities such as this one but with more of a PC2 focus that allow people to add friends / join lobbies based on similar preferences? Granted, not as slick as GTS matchmaking, but if it leads to more quality racing without the drawbacks of GTS then I'd be all for it.

Is it possible to create a GTP lobby and leave it open 24/7 so anyone can join or does it need setup each and every time?

 

[KingFrog]

Im not saying YOU have a s

First thing, drop the attitude, it's not going to serve you well.

R6S in ranked matches, Overwatch, any of the old Halo titles.

That's off the top of my head and all do a better job of matching skill than GTS does. That's not to say GTS is bad at it (which is what you seem to be reading any point that doesn't praise GTS over anything as), but I've still had a number of races in


Nice strawman.


I don't subscribe to iRacing, as such accusation if confirmation bias is not valid. I also used the qualifier 'arguably' and then repeated it in the post you just quoted. As such I'm not sure how you missed that!

I've not said iRacing is definitively better in this regard, but that it arguably has elements to it that people could see as better. As such you are arguing a point I never made.


Don't move the goalposts.

Im not saying YOU have a selection bias. Im saying I racings player base is well behaved because of how its pay to play system works. Thus in statistics, I racing has what we refer to as bias sample.

The olds halos had great matchmaking for its time, it says halo 3 rivals GT sport in its matchmaking abilities. Overwatch, nope. If you kept up , blizzard selectively designed their algorithm to force losses on a player. This is known as rare win . Overwatched has a rigged matchmaking system so its literally bottom barrel bull crap ( but it does match you up pretty quickly). CS-Go and Halo 3 are the only two games which IMO have matchmaking as fluid and close-matched as GT sport. I guess it boils down to experience.

 

[Foxis]

Im not saying YOU have a selection bias. Im saying I racings player base is well behaved because of how its pay to play system works. Thus in statistics, I racing has what we refer to as bias sample.

I am not sure how that is relevant to be honest. You are mostly narrowing the definition of matchmaking to dismiss iRacing.
I would argue that the subscription model and having to display your RL name is a core of the iRacing "matchmaking" model, since it ensures you will be racing with likeminded people of similar skill.

GTS can match you with people of similar ability in terms of qualifying time, but it currently lacks an effective mechanic to ensure people play by the same rules. As such, I will submit that it is the other way around: iRacing is still the model to beat.

Are they disparate in terms of cost? Of course, but that was not part of this discussion really.

 

[Scaff]

Im not saying YOU have a s

Im not saying YOU have a selection bias. Im saying I racings player base is well behaved because of how its pay to play system works. Thus in statistics, I racing has what we refer to as bias sample.

Once again you are moving the goal-posts.

I
The olds halos had great matchmaking for its time, it says halo 3 rivals GT sport in its matchmaking abilities. Overwatch, nope. If you kept up , blizzard selectively designed their algorithm to force losses on a player. This is known as rare win . Overwatched has a rigged matchmaking system so its literally bottom barrel bull crap ( but it does match you up pretty quickly). CS-Go and Halo 3 are the only two games which IMO have matchmaking as fluid and close-matched as GT sport. I guess it boils down to experience.

You seem to have missed that I was talking specifically about ranked play, and no Blizzard doesn't force losses on players. It uses a system that tries to match players as closely as possible, but in the event it doesn't provides bigger gains to players with a lower probability of winning (and lo type ranking system).

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20745504371

As for GTS matchmaking being closely matched, that's not been my experience across a grid at all, with the difference between the front and back of the grid being large in almost every race, and backmarkers being lapped a common event.

Nor does it do a great job of matching SR, mainly because SR is so damn easy to game its an impossible task.

 

[Deadheadbill]

GTS has the best matchmaking in racing games imo. In the context of this discussion it would seem that is all that matters. Also, it is decidedly better than Pcars 2 in that respect which seems to be the op's concern. Why we are discussing Overwatch or Halo is beyond me.

What does iRacing matchmaking do thats better and why did PD not go the full hog and give us iRacing matchmaking?

Iracing has a reporting system where you report griefers etc via replay and they review and hand out penalties/bans as needed. This would be way to time consuming and labor intensive for PD to attempt imo.

Reason I ask is as I mentioned earlier my attempt to find a good alternative. I am not bound to the PS4 either, I have a fairly powerful PC rig + a Oculus DK2. Think I mentioned before I used to race in iRacing, and am considering that as an alternative. But it has its drawbacks. Not entirely fond of their physics model (too icy) and getting a good field in iRacing is not always easy either.

So PC2 on the PC looks like a good alternativ, if there are good series to be found...?

Racing in VR on Pcars 2 is a game changer. It is very difficult to get setup correctly imo, but once you do it is the most immersive experience available. The game itself is a resource hog so the major caveat is that without a 1080ti and a substantial cpu you probably will not be able to get it to acceptable graphical standards. Ymmv.

 

[Foxis]

GTS has the best matchmaking in racing games imo. In the context of this discussion it would seem that is all that matters. Also, it is decidedly better than Pcars 2 in that respect which seems to be the op's concern.

Well, I want the complete package. Realism, good race simulation, and preferably good matchmaking or easy access to series/leagues. I simply don't have too much time these days (which is why I quite iRacing a few years ago), so I don't have time to muck around with mods or wade through forums in search of races.
So, GTS looked like a good proposition, but I have been turned off due to the lack of tracks and the toxic behaviour in all too many races.

Racing in VR on Pcars 2 is a game changer. It is very difficult to get setup correctly imo, but once you do it is the most immersive experience available. The game itself is a resource hog so the major caveat is that without a 1080ti and a substantial cpu you probably will not be able to get it to acceptable graphical standards. Ymmv.

I used to use VR in iRacing when they rolled it out. I agree it's very cool. Whether it's good for your brain/eyes is another matter entirely. I am not so sure to be honest. I did try the demo though (without VR) and my PC could run it cranked up (just on a single screen though) even though I have yet to upgrade from the 980ti ->1080.

But I am growing frustrated. 2018 is around the corner. How come there is no product that has managed to just distill racing into a good format? No matter which product I lean towards there's always some factor that is very poorly implemented.

Or, maybe I'm just too old, cynical, and picky.

 

[Deadheadbill]

Well, I want the complete package. Realism, good race simulation, and preferably good matchmaking or easy access to series/leagues. I simply don't have too much time these days (which is why I quite iRacing a few years ago), so I don't have time to muck around with mods or wade through forums in search of races.
So, GTS looked like a good proposition, but I have been turned off due to the lack of tracks and the toxic behaviour in all too many races.

I used to use VR in iRacing when they rolled it out. I agree it's very cool. Whether it's good for your brain/eyes is another matter entirely. I am not so sure to be honest. I did try the demo though (without VR) and my PC could run it cranked up (just on a single screen though) even though I have yet to upgrade from the 980ti ->1080.

But I am growing frustrated. 2018 is around the corner. How come there is no product that has managed to just distill racing into a good format? No matter which product I lean towards there's always some factor that is very poorly implemented.

Or, maybe I'm just too old, cynical, and picky.

Yeah, I initially had a 980 ti and it would run Pcars 2 flawlessly. VR is an entirely seperate matter though and with all the resources dedicated to the base game itself the upgrade to 1080ti was required for me to get it to run with any acceptable graphical fidelity.

Probably, it happens to all of us eventually.

 

[Foxis]

Yeah, I initially had a 980 ti and it would run Pcars 2 flawlessly. VR is an entirely seperate matter though and with all the resources dedicated to the base game itself the upgrade to 1080ti was required for me to get it to run with any acceptable graphical fidelity.

Really? That's a surprise TBH. I ran Elite Dangerous quite a bit with the current rig with most of the settings maxed out and it handled VR without a problem (and that game had the reputation of being very poorly optimised to begin with).
The difference between the 980 and 1080 is not *that* big (going by the numbers) so I would have expected the 980 to handle it with settings lowered a bit (which is fine in VR anyway). Hm.....

 

[Deadheadbill]

Really? That's a surprise TBH. I ran Elite Dangerous quite a bit with the current rig with most of the settings maxed out and it handled VR without a problem (and that game had the reputation of being very poorly optimised to begin with).
The difference between the 980 and 1080 is not *that* big (going by the numbers) so I would have expected the 980 to handle it with settings lowered a bit (which is fine in VR anyway). Hm.....

Well, keep in mind that I am new to VR, but that was my experience. The PC demo supports VR so you could try it for yourself. I would be curious as to your thoughts.

 

[Foxis]

Someone suggested I should take a peek at the Steam discussions, so I did that. Besides the usual Steam toxicity, there were actually a *lot* of negativity. Is that just a Steam thing (which it can sometimes be) or do people have legitimate gripes? I thought pcars2 actually did deliver what they promised, but by the sounds of things it is "another broken product"?

I know I could just buy it, it's not that much money, but after GTS I'd rather not spend time on another title just to get frustrated after a week.
So, more opinions, please if I may ask?

 

[McKiernan]

Just try the demo & decide for yourself.

 

[Foxis]

Just try the demo & decide for yourself.

I obviously have, and the demo is impressive. But most of the gripes are regarding bugs and features which the demo cannot be used to evaluate.
Hence my question.

 

[Foxis]

Well, keep in mind that I am new to VR, but that was my experience. The PC demo supports VR so you could try it for yourself. I would be curious as to your thoughts.

I took some time to set up my DK2 headset on the PC (mostly been using it for development on the Mac on a previous project). First of all the Oculus software is horrible, insisting on being from and center, tied with Facebook etc. I get why they're doing it, but...yuk.

PC2 ran surprisingly well. With default settings I got 80-90 fps out of the box (the rainy Ferrari scenario in the demo). But that was without shadows. With shadows on high it dropped a bit to 50-60ish, and then I didn't tinker more. But the tracking latency was fine and I'm sure I could have raced that way.
One problem though is that all the onscreen stuff (virtual mirror, times, virtual rev counter etc.) was positioned in front of me in a quite small scale. Not sure how to configure/get rid of that...?

All in all it's as impressive as iRacing was. The better graphics in PC2 do not really show in VR though with the limited resolution. And once again I'm not sure I would want to do any longer races in VR. I am quite sure the current headsets aren't that good for your vision long term. I am holding out for Magic Leap to actually release something, thet's the future.

 

[Deadheadbill]

PC2 ran surprisingly well. With default settings I got 80-90 fps out of the box (the rainy Ferrari scenario in the demo). But that was without shadows. With shadows on high it dropped a bit to 50-60ish, and then I didn't tinker more. But the tracking latency was fine and I'm sure I could have raced that way.

One problem though is that all the onscreen stuff (virtual mirror, times, virtual rev counter etc.) was positioned in front of me in a quite small scale. Not sure how to configure/get rid of that...?

All in all it's as impressive as iRacing was. The better graphics in PC2 do not really show in VR though with the limited resolution. And once again I'm not sure I would want to do any longer races in VR. I am quite sure the current headsets aren't that good for your vision long term. I am holding out for Magic Leap to actually release something, thet's the future.

My pc took a dump last week and I just got everything back together. Tonight I will do some testing of my own. How do you get frame rates from within VR? The only way I could do it was with an external app and I had to keep raising my visor to check it.

@BrandonW77 could probably answer your hud questions, I saw that he had similar issues somewhere in the forum.

Magic Leap are my homeboys from Florida. Tech moves fast so hopefully sooner rather than later.

 

[Foxis]

My pc took a dump last week and I just got everything back together. Tonight I will do some testing of my own. How do you get frame rates from within VR? The only way I could do it was with an external app and I had to keep raising my visor to check it..

Thanks! Yes, I too have to check it on the connected monitor. I think it's Nvidia's GeForce Experience/Shadowplay/whatever they call it these days that superimposes the FPS counter on the mirrored display. Would have been great to have it in the sim (iRacing can do that via a setting IIRC).

 

[Deadheadbill]

Besides the usual Steam toxicity, there were actually a *lot* of negativity. Is that just a Steam thing (which it can sometimes be) or do people have legitimate gripes?

I think it is a little of both. Complainers on SMS forums tend to get shouted down/banned and as you can see from the Steam comments many of them lack the skill to express themselves without being abusive, vulgar or resulting to personal attacks, none of which will fly on this forum. However as you said it is also a "Steam thing" where more people complain than praise.

Personally, I feel you have to be able to take the good with the bad in this game. It takes more "work" to get the game running right than it should and there are bugs that are shrugged off by the developer as design decisions or not important that you have to be willing to overlook. If you can do all of this there is a great game in there with more tracks and as many cars as the best of the other racers available.

Unfortunately online is a weak link and the ability to pick up and play online easily may never be implemented. I was hoping the success of GT Sports online matchmaking would encourage SMS to follow suit, but have seen no indications of this. It's still early in the lifecycle though, so you never know.

 

[Double Ayyys]

That's why I have tried to get people on board with my Race Calendar idea. Can be multi platform and multi game.

Imagine going to one website to look for lobbies that will be available for GT-S, pCars2, and Assetto Corsa. You could browse available races and register to race ensuring yourself a spot. Registration can be open up to 10 minutes before qualifying starts and you can also back out if something comes up. It provides a level of flexibility and I'm also going to try to make a mobile app with more functionality. Currently the web calendar can have multiple admins, can send read only link such as I have provided so you can vote but can't mess with anything else. You can filter the calendar to look for a certain game or even certain car class by using subcategories.

My super simple 3 examples only race calendar. If this picks up it could do wonders for quality racing without having to be committed to a league.

https://teamup.com/ks5r7hxjhvgpqqx79v

 

[Foxis]

I searched around a bit, and it seems there are a few quite serious leagues dedicated to PC2. AOR seems to be one of the better ones. So, PC2 looks as if it could be a cheaper and more flexible alternative to iRacing which I have been contemplating (again) recently.

Leagues requires scheduling though, so I agree some form of better way to find like-minded players is needed for spontaneous sessions. Since most sims (beside iRacing) has repeatedly shown that random internet strangers cannot be trusted, the only other way seem to be to establish a network of friends, and a league or dedicated forum can be a great place to accomplish that, I think.

 

[BrandonW77]

My pc took a dump last week and I just got everything back together. Tonight I will do some testing of my own. How do you get frame rates from within VR? The only way I could do it was with an external app and I had to keep raising my visor to check it.

@BrandonW77 could probably answer your hud questions, I saw that he had similar issues somewhere in the forum.

Magic Leap are my homeboys from Florida. Tech moves fast so hopefully sooner rather than later.

Thanks! Yes, I too have to check it on the connected monitor. I think it's Nvidia's GeForce Experience/Shadowplay/whatever they call it these days that superimposes the FPS counter on the mirrored display. Would have been great to have it in the sim (iRacing can do that via a setting IIRC).

The HUD is glitched in VR, there used to be a way to fix it but the most recent update broke the fix so now we're stuck with it. It's pretty useless in its current form and very distracting so unfortunately I usually just turn it off.

As for checking your FPS, if you're on Rift it should have come with a program called Oculus Debug Tool (it's in the diagnostics folder of your Oculus folder I believe). Open up the Debug Tool and there will be a HUD option, enable the Performance HUD and then a display will appear in your headset showing your FPS and your performance overhead so you can watch it as you drive on track to judge your system's performance. I believe you want your overhead to be between -10 and +15, and your FPS should ideally stay at 90 if possible but if it drops below that and activates ASW it's usually not an issue.

 

[Napalm_LT]

I was very patient and didn't say any bad word, but after 8 hours online at Saturday I must say it is uplayable at the moment. Every second time I enter loby got error. I was in top 3 in every qually, but had no one race where I wasn't ramed. Lost 80 points, rank drped to U. I love game, but public online is terrible

 

[superwally]

To clarify-are we comparing a PS4 game with a PC title, or the PS4 version of PC2? It matters, I'm not investing in a gaming PC.

 

[HenrySwanson]

This is encouraging me to boot up GTS once I get around to configuring the CSL so it works properly