Open Wheel: Lower Divisions

[Pepsi0]

I would only want the Ferrari F1 car and A1GP cars to be honest. That's enough open wheelers, and as I said the A1GP cars would result in a brilliant GTP championship. I agree with daan, GT is more about normal cars, supercars, and rally cars.

Not NASCAR though. Oh well, at least that makes the game bigger, and it will benefit Polophony to because of the massive American NASCAR fan base, so it would get more sales in America.

 

[Famine]

The thing about Nascar is that at least the series was originally based on road-going cars. Same with GT/LMP cars - we have the 1969 Le Mans winner in the game so it makes little sense to exclude its 2008/9 equivalent, even if it's a little far removed from a road vehicle these days.

F1's never been based on roadgoing cars - nor have any other open wheel formulae. That's not to say open-wheeled road cars shouldn't be included - Ariel Atom, Caterfields - as they are, after all, road cars.

 

[Pepsi0]

The thing about Nascar is that at least the series was originally based on road-going cars. Same with GT/LMP cars - we have the 1969 Le Mans winner in the game so it makes little sense to exclude its 2008/9 equivalent, even if it's a little far removed from a road vehicle these days.

F1's never been based on roadgoing cars - nor have any other open wheel formulae. That's not to say open-wheeled road cars shouldn't be included - Ariel Atom, Caterfields - as they are, after all, road cars.

Yes I agree with that also.

 

[Rob192005]

Yes I agree with that also.

Me too.

 

[Lucas]

*sigh* I had thought of a great rebuttal to this, but that would be violating the rule in my signature.

I have to start following that rule. You can always feel better by remembering NASCAR is real racing, no matter what people say. After all, the same can be said about other types of motorsport. As long as the turn is in the left, it would really mean a lack of inteligence from the driver to turn to the right, and vice-versa. It's just as predictable.

In this topic, I agree completely with daan. The focus should be kept in road cars and road-based race cars. There's nothing more fun than jumping from a Ford Focus WRC to the original Ford Focus.

 

[WolfRacer543]

The thing about Nascar is that at least the series was originally based on road-going cars. Same with GT/LMP cars - we have the 1969 Le Mans winner in the game so it makes little sense to exclude its 2008/9 equivalent, even if it's a little far removed from a road vehicle these days.

F1's never been based on roadgoing cars - nor have any other open wheel formulae....

You aren't wrong, but I dont see that as a reason not to include open wheeler race cars. I dont see GT as a "road car" game, I see it as a "car" game, and the collecting, owning, modifying and racing of "cars". Since a large portion of it is the last one (racing), open wheelers are a perfect candidate that shouldn't be left out. Even from the collecting/owning/modifying perspective, I think it'd be cool to see something like a hillclimb championship, where you could build your own open wheeler race car, start with an engine, build a chassis and suspension around it, then upgrade it as you progress. Not to mention I'd love to own some of the old school open wheelers.

You could argue that GT is about "road cars" and not "cars" in general... but then I'd argue that many GT cars and LMP cars shouldn't be in it, because the links are so tiny from a realistic perspective. Well then I guess you could say GT isn't about road cars, its about "road cars and cars that are some what related to them in a even a very small way". But even then you have open wheelers which use street going components. So then I guess you could say "GT is about road cars and cars that are related to them in such a that they have a similar exterior appearance or such a way that the series they compete in once used road cars at one point in its history". In which case I'd ask why be so narrow minded and just open up GT to being about "cars, the passion of cars, the history of cars and the racing of cars", in which case open wheeled race cars fall into every category.

Plus, I enjoy racing open wheelers and think it'd be cool Especially online, admittedly if I'm racing offline I'd rather race a touring car, but online open wheelers, particularly low powered open wheelers, are awesomely fun and produce great races where you'll be on the edge of your seat trying to push your car as hard as the guy infront without losing it.

 

[Peter]

If im' correct, the GT40 was a race car by itself, the road version came after.

 

[VenomdanF1]

Technically, couldn't all cars be traced back to open wheeled cars considering the first one were.

 

[Famine]

You aren't wrong, but I dont see that as a reason not to include open wheeler race cars. I dont see GT as a "road car" game, I see it as a "car" game, and the collecting, owning, modifying and racing of "cars". Since a large portion of it is the last one (racing), open wheelers are a perfect candidate that shouldn't be left out. Even from the collecting/owning/modifying perspective, I think it'd be cool to see something like a hillclimb championship, where you could build your own open wheeler race car, start with an engine, build a chassis and suspension around it, then upgrade it as you progress. Not to mention I'd love to own some of the old school open wheelers.

You could argue that GT is about "road cars" and not "cars" in general... but then I'd argue that many GT cars and LMP cars shouldn't be in it, because the links are so tiny from a realistic perspective. Well then I guess you could say GT isn't about road cars, its about "road cars and cars that are some what related to them in a even a very small way". But even then you have open wheelers which use street going components. So then I guess you could say "GT is about road cars and cars that are related to them in such a that they have a similar exterior appearance or such a way that the series they compete in once used road cars at one point in its history". In which case I'd ask why be so narrow minded and just open up GT to being about "cars, the passion of cars, the history of cars and the racing of cars", in which case open wheeled race cars fall into every category.

Plus, I enjoy racing open wheelers and think it'd be cool Especially online, admittedly if I'm racing offline I'd rather race a touring car, but online open wheelers, particularly low powered open wheelers, are awesomely fun and produce great races where you'll be on the edge of your seat trying to push your car as hard as the guy infront without losing it.

Would you include Thrust SSC?

 

[Fruitcake]

Would you include Thrust SSC?

And get stuck on Eiger

 

[WolfRacer543]

Would you include Thrust SSC?

I dont quite understand what that has to do with the discussion of open wheelers... because implementing a Thrust SSC has a number of practical problems in a GT game which open wheelers do not. Its an expensive land speed record car that would not go around any of the tracks in GT. PD would need to add Black Rock Desert as a "track" and you wouldn't be able to do wheel to wheel racing. If you could overcome those hurdles, sure, add the Thrust SSC, its a part of vehicle history, even if its more like a plane without wings than a car

Imagine there was the Black Rock Desert in GT5 to do drags on, the Thrust SSC would be perfectly at home in GT5 then

 

[steve30x]

GT is a car game so the inclusion of any type of car is welcome to me. GT is not just about road cars and those who say it is need to get over it and get with the times.

 

[01GTP]

Which is also what makes it so unique.
Open Wheelers, Stock Cars, GTs, Coupes, Hatchbacks, Station Wagons, Motor Carriages (), everything drivable.

Don't forget pickup trucks.

The Dodge Ram on dirt at the Swiss Alps can be fun, at times.
It is a bit doggy ((word?) underpowered at low rpm) but has been used in a short truck series here at gtplanet.

I say bring them all on and we will race them, especially in the WRS.

 

[Famine]

I dont quite understand what that has to do with the discussion of open wheelers... because implementing a Thrust SSC has a number of practical problems in a GT game which open wheelers do not. Its an expensive land speed record car that would not go around any of the tracks in GT. PD would need to add Black Rock Desert as a "track" and you wouldn't be able to do wheel to wheel racing. If you could overcome those hurdles, sure, add the Thrust SSC, its a part of vehicle history, even if its more like a plane without wings than a car

Imagine there was the Black Rock Desert in GT5 to do drags on, the Thrust SSC would be perfectly at home in GT5 then

It's a car.

In which case I'd ask why be so narrow minded and just open up GT to being about "cars, the passion of cars, the history of cars and the racing of cars", in which case open wheeled race cars fall into every category.

Built with passion, guaranteed a place in history (first ratified supersonic car) and when it comes to racing, you find anything that can cover a flying mile quicker currently...

Of course it's utterly ridiculous to put Thrust SSC into GT, but if you open the qualifications to "cars", it qualifies. It even has four wheels, and two of them steer... Of course it has as much to do with regular cars as aeroplanes do to birds (they have wings... err... they nest at airports?) - and so do Formula One and other purpose-built, open-wheel formulae cars. LMP, NASCAR, WRC at least can trace the origins of their sport to road cars and homologated roads cars and the inclusion of their predecessors provides some argument for the current crop.


At a less extreme level, GT has a drag strip. All kinds of cars compete at drag strips - some friends of ours have a road legal Dodge Challenger running 9.5s. But what of funny cars and top fuel cars? How would GT look with a nitromethane-powered 4s rocket - complete with parachute? Or the FireForce jet car? I'd argue against their inclusion - they are purpose-built and the only characteristics they share with a car is "four wheels" (and not even in the same place).

Just as I'd argue against the inclusion of Formula cars. If LMP cars didn't have a root in road racing, I'd argue against them too. Silhouette cars... pretty much my limit.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Talking of F1 cars Famine, the Brabham BT52s used roughly 100,000 mile ( that was at it's most reliable point ) BMW 2002 engines although modified and turboed, i will find out which F1 cars used road going engines and will make a new thread.

 

[WolfRacer543]

It's a car.



Built with passion, guaranteed a place in history (first ratified supersonic car) and when it comes to racing, you find anything that can cover a flying mile quicker currently...

Of course it's utterly ridiculous to put Thrust SSC into GT, but if you open the qualifications to "cars", it qualifies.

You may have missed my point, I dont think it'd be ridiculous to include the Thrust SSC, assuming one of the tracks was Black Rock Desert. Because that's the only "track" that'd be appropriate to race on with the Thrust SSC.

Who says GT is only about road cars? That's just how you feel about it. I feel its the "driving" simulator, not the "road car and cars that somehow get their origin from road cars" simulator. I think its some what closed minded to draw the line at LMPs, largely because open wheelers are so much fun to drive and I'd want them included in my "driving" simulator. Most the F1 cars come from road car manufacturers anyway, as do most open wheelers (if not the car itself, many of the components). I just dont see the justification to include LMP cars and many GT cars yet not include open wheelers... if you want links with road cars you can see them in open wheelers. Though I dont think you should even need to see the links with road cars because of the fact I think GT is a game about "cars" and not "road cars" anyway.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Completely agree with Wolf.

 

[Famine]

You may have missed my point, I dont think it'd be ridiculous to include the Thrust SSC, assuming one of the tracks was Black Rock Desert. Because that's the only "track" that'd be appropriate to race on with the Thrust SSC.

That doesn't sound ridiculous to you? Really? To include Thrust SSC and Black Rock Desert in a car racing game?

Who would you be racing?

Who says GT is only about road cars? That's just how you feel about it.

Quote me on that one.

I feel its the "driving" simulator, not the "road car and cars that somehow get their origin from road cars" simulator. I think its some what closed minded to draw the line at LMPs, largely because open wheelers are so much fun to drive and I'd want them included in my "driving" simulator.

Go-karts are fun to drive. Motorbikes are fun to ride. Motorcycle Sidecars are hilarious. Truck racing is fun. Sex is fun. Are we to argue for the inclusion of all of these (admittedly the last one would be amusing - especially with a damage model).

Most the F1 cars come from road car manufacturers anyway

Brawn, Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Sauber, Williams, Force India. 60% of the F1 grid and none are car manufacturers. Next season take Sauber off, but add the three newcomers who aren't car manufacturers either.

Most F1 cars do not come from road car manufacturers.

I just dont see the justification to include LMP cars and many GT cars yet not include open wheelers...

Because they are cars and open wheelers are merely motorsports vehicles.

if you want links with road cars you can see them in open wheelers. Though I dont think you should even need to see the links with road cars because of the fact I think GT is a game about "cars" and not "road cars" anyway.

Indeed - and to me and many others, Formula and Top Fuel vehicles are not cars.

 

[Boffin]

That doesn't sound ridiculous to you? Really? To include Thrust SSC and Black Rock Desert in a car racing game?

Who would you be racing?

Who are you racing in an AutoUnion Audi in GT4?

 

[Famine]

Who are you racing in an AutoUnion Audi in GT4?

Indeed.

Though I shall add "These people:"

Courtesy of Digital Nitrate​

 

[WolfRacer543]

That doesn't sound ridiculous to you? Really? To include Thrust SSC and Black Rock Desert in a car racing game?

Who would you be racing?

Time trials I never said the Thrust SSC is on my list of cars I want to see in GT5, but if PD decided to put it in, I wouldn't be complaining.

Go-karts are fun to drive. Motorbikes are fun to ride. Motorcycle Sidecars are hilarious. Truck racing is fun. Sex is fun. Are we to argue for the inclusion of all of these (admittedly the last one would be amusing - especially with a damage model).

Other than go-karts, they aren't "cars", they aren't in place in a "driving simulator". We aren't arguing whether any random thing should be in the game, we are talking about whether they are appropriate for the GT world. IMO, open wheelers are appropriate, because they fit within the "driving simulator" mould of GT, especially since GT focuses on the "racing" part of "driving" more than anything (you dont modify your old muscle car to have an air-con in GT, you do however strip weight out of it to make it "race" better).

(on the side, I wouldn't mind go karts in GT, assuming there are tracks appropriate for them)

Brawn, Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Sauber, Williams, Force India. 60% of the F1 grid and none are car manufacturers. Next season take Sauber off, but add the three newcomers who aren't car manufacturers either.

Most F1 cars do not come from road car manufacturers.

As far as I'm aware most the engines still come from road car manufacturers, ferrari, mercedes, renault.

Because they are cars and open wheelers are merely motorsports vehicles.

Open wheelers are cars A GT car or LMP car is designed to get around a track as fast as possible, thats all its designed to do, the GT car may have a body that looks like a street car (though possibly made from composites when the original car was metal). Likewise, an open wheeler is also designed to get around a track as fast as possible.

Indeed - and to me and many others, Formula and Top Fuel vehicles are not cars.

Well to me they are cars I'm part of a Formula SAE team... if you read through the rules they refer to the motorsport vehicle as, get this, a "car". If the Society of Automotive Engineers is willing to call a formula motorsport vehicle a car, I'm willing to call it a car too

 

[Boffin]

Indeed.

Though I shall add "These people:"

Courtesy of Digital Nitrate​

Dayum - sorry, I always remembered the AutoUnion as old being able to time trial and photoshoot.

 

[Famine]

Time trials I never said the Thrust SSC is on my list of cars I want to see in GT5, but if PD decided to put it in, I wouldn't be complaining.

I didn't ask whether you'd complain - rather whether you really thought that didn't sound completely ridiculous.

I don't like F1 cars in GT games. I don't complain about them being there, though I do think it's ridiculous.

Other than go-karts, they aren't "cars", they aren't in place in a "driving simulator". We aren't arguing whether any random thing should be in the game, we are talking about whether they are appropriate for the GT world. IMO, open wheelers are appropriate, because they fit within the "driving simulator" mould of GT, especially since GT focuses on the "racing" part of "driving" more than anything (you dont modify your old muscle car to have an air-con in GT, you do however strip weight out of it to make it "race" better).

(on the side, I wouldn't mind go karts in GT, assuming there are tracks appropriate for them)

Open wheelers are cars A GT car or LMP car is designed to get around a track as fast as possible, thats all its designed to do, the GT car may have a body that looks like a street car (though possibly made from composites when the original car was metal). Likewise, an open wheeler is also designed to get around a track as fast as possible.

Well to me they are cars I'm part of a Formula SAE team... if you read through the rules they refer to the motorsport vehicle as, get this, a "car". If the Society of Automotive Engineers is willing to call a formula motorsport vehicle a car, I'm willing to call it a car too

No car is designed to go around a track as fast as possible. They are designed around regulations and the drivers and teams try to get the thing as fast as possible within those regulations (or slightly outside them, occasionally).

As it stands, those regulations are derived from road-going vehicles except in the case of open-wheel formulae. Even an LMP car could be road legal with just a licence plate (after having passed an SVA test first) - they have headlights, indicators, brake lights...

As far as I'm aware most the engines still come from road car manufacturers, ferrari, mercedes, renault.

Engines, yes (hmmm... kinda. All the new boys will be running Cosworth engines). Chassis, no.

 

[WolfRacer543]

I didn't ask whether you'd complain - rather whether you really thought that didn't sound completely ridiculous.

I don't like F1 cars in GT games. I don't complain about them being there, though I do think it's ridiculous.

I never meant to imply you were complaining about it, just to say I wouldn't complain if the Thrust SSC was in GT. Perhaps if I'd said "argue" instead of "complain" it would have been more in context... I've always sucked at english, my apologies

EDIT: Oh, and about the thing whether I think they are ridiculous or not, I did answer that earlier, hence why I just elaborated on it rather than saying the exact same thing I did before... quoting myself... "You may have missed my point, I dont think it'd be ridiculous to include the Thrust SSC, assuming one of the tracks was Black Rock Desert." [END EDIT]

No car is designed to go around a track as fast as possible. They are designed around regulations and the drivers and teams try to get the thing as fast as possible within those regulations (or slightly outside them, occasionally).

Yes well of course, that's kind of implied. You always design something within the limitations of a design. Those limitations could be physical limitations (you need the car to perform for a certain amount of time without falling apart or consuming so much fuel it constantly needs to be refuelled) or the limitations could be due to rules. When I said "designed to go around a track as fast as possible" the "as possible" bit implies within certain limitations... perhaps I should have elaborated but I didn't realise you were going to nitpick over it.

As it stands, those regulations are derived from road-going vehicles except in the case of open-wheel formulae. Even an LMP car could be road legal with just a licence plate (after having passed an SVA test first) - they have headlights, indicators, brake lights...

So we just come back to the point I was talking about before that you feel the cars in GT should be road going or have some relation to them (yet more relation than open wheelers). You can feel that way, I'm not going to argue that you can't feel how you want to feel... but I feel GT is about cars, in particular the racing of cars. Open wheelers are cars, and I think they'd be a good addition to the GT series because they are enjoyable to drive and give good races. I wouldn't argue the validity of top fueler dragsters being in the game if PD decided they wanted to put them in, however they are slightly less practical due to their inability to race on anything but the drag track.