Organs

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by milefile
If you disagree please walk me through the ethical logic because I'm apparently too slow to grasp it.

let me speed the process up a litlle for you..

by making it legal to sell body parts you open the gates to a flood of third world people selling kidneys etc to make a fast buck....

people already sell thier own children into prostitution...what stops them from selling thier childrens kidneys to support a drug habit...?...and it being LEGAL?

yeah milefile....whats wrong with that?...i'm all for it..

now that's sarcasm...

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
let me speed the process up a litlle for you..

by making it legal to sell body parts you open the gates to a flood of third world people

You mean the brown people?

people already sell thier own children into prostitution...

But wait... isn't that illegal?

what stops them from selling thier childrens kidneys to support a drug habit...?

Apparently nothing, based on what you just said.

...and it being LEGAL?

Well, if the state owned all body parts... nah. Nevermind. But seriously, the premise of your knee-jerk reaction is so thin and flimsy it's laughable.

yeah milefile....whats wrong with that?...i'm all for it..

now that's sarcasm...

Actually, it is not. Nor is it clever or witty in the slightest. Of course you don't know why.

Everybody is assuming that it would automatically mean bad people taking organs from an unwilling party for profit. Now that is cynical. I was thinking more along the lines of what I posted above, but only one person has bothered to mention:

"Most donated organs come from young, otherwise healthy individuals who died unexpectedly. In many cases their families are not prepared to pay the costs associated with death. What would be wrong with having one's funeral expenses paid in exchange for an organ? Perhaps a tax credit?"

Did anyone ever stop to think of economic reality? When the government is in the business of price fixing, bad things happen. When the price is fixed at zero, really bad things happen. These grisly scenarios pointed out by LM and TS would, in fact, be decresed dramatically. When things are brought out into the light of day they tend to remain on the up-and-up. Black markets exist easily in the dark but they wither when integrated into a free market. Please don't bother pointing out criminal activity in free market societies. There have always been, and will always be, bad people who want to benefit at the expense of others. When we hurt ourselves while failing to control them we have only made things worse; that is the current state of this issue.

Poorly thought out moralistic reactionism is weak and destructive. It can't see past it's own comfort and complacency. It allows palpably solveable problems to fester in the name of "good". And it's downright obscene.

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by milefile
You mean the brown people?

i mean people in 3rd world countries...if you think that only 'brown people' live in 3rd world countries then thats your ignorance showing, not mine...

what about eastern europe?

But wait... isn't that illegal?

yes its illegal....but by making organ 'donation' legal you'll put even more children at risk than are already...all in the name of the law...

Well, if the state owned all body parts... nah. Nevermind. But seriously, the premise of your knee-jerk reaction is so thin and flimsy it's laughable.

its not knee jerk my friend...its thought through unlike your generlisation that the world is just like america...

Actually, it is not. Nor is it clever or witty in the slightest. Of course you don't know why.

by actually writing 'thats sarcasm' should be enough to indicate the contrary....why didnt you see that? are you getting sloppy in your dotage milefile?


and by the way...who ever said that sarcasm was clever and witty?....i mean apart from you..

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
i mean people in 3rd world countries...if you think that only 'brown people' live in 3rd world countries then thats your ignorance showing, not mine...

what about eastern europe?





yes its illegal....but by making organ 'donation' legal you'll put even more children at risk than are already...all in the name of the law...




its not knee jerk my friend...its thought through unlike your generlisation that the world is just like america...



by actually writing 'thats sarcasm' should be enough to indicate the contrary....why didnt you see that? are you getting sloppy in your dotage milefile?


and by the way...who ever said that sarcasm was clever and witty?....i mean apart from you..

Good grief. There is not one thing worth addressing in this post. Do you think it is not glaringly obvious that you ignored anything of substance? Why can't you just address my arguments? Here, I'll re-post them. This is what you chose to ignore, the parts about the topic at hand:

p.s. I made it bold because maybe you just didn't see it before.

"Everybody is assuming that it would automatically mean bad people taking organs from an unwilling party for profit. Now that is cynical. I was thinking more along the lines of what I posted above, but only one person has bothered to mention:

"Most donated organs come from young, otherwise healthy individuals who died unexpectedly. In many cases their families are not prepared to pay the costs associated with death. What would be wrong with having one's funeral expenses paid in exchange for an organ? Perhaps a tax credit?"

Did anyone ever stop to think of economic reality? When the government is in the business of price fixing, bad things happen. When the price is fixed at zero, really bad things happen. These grisly scenarios pointed out by LM and TS would, in fact, be decresed dramatically. When things are brought out into the light of day they tend to remain on the up-and-up. Black markets exist easily in the dark but they wither when integrated into a free market. Please don't bother pointing out criminal activity in free market societies. There have always been, and will always be, bad people who want to benefit at the expense of others. When we hurt ourselves while failing to control them we have only made things worse; that is the current state of this issue.

Poorly thought out moralistic reactionism is weak and destructive. It can't see past it's own comfort and complacency. It allows palpably solveable problems to fester in the name of "good". And it's downright obscene."

Wow. That's, like, the whole post.

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by milefile


Wow. That's, like, the whole post.

which is drivel

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
drivel

A thing you are abundantly familiar with. It is so fun owning you 👍

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by milefile
It is so fun owning you 👍

not as much fun as being owned by you.....what do you wan me to do next....?

 

[milefile]

I'm bored with you again. Bye.

 

[TurboSmoke]

bye bye...better luck next time

 

[TurboSmoke]

seriously though milefile...your post was bulleted with mainly trivial matters that were drived purely from self interest....

if we were to introduce measures that allowed the free trade in human organs there is a wider picture that you must consider... and just as i ignored your points, you made light of mine and your flimsy attempt at answering them showed no real forethought nor any degree of capability on your part to be able to think 'outside the box'...taking other factors into account rather than self.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
seriously though milefile...your post was bulleted with mainly trivial matters that were drived purely from self interest....

if we were to introduce measures that allowed the free trade in human organs there is a wider picture that you must consider...

This picture?

"by making it legal to sell body parts you open the gates to a flood of third world people selling kidneys etc to make a fast buck...."

"people already sell thier own children into prostitution...what stops them from selling thier childrens kidneys to support a drug habit...?...and it being LEGAL?"

"yes its illegal....but by making organ 'donation' legal you'll put even more children at risk than are already...all in the name of the law..."

But that was considered by these points which you have continued to ignore:

"When the government is in the business of price fixing, bad things happen. When the price is fixed at zero, really bad things happen. These grisly scenarios pointed out by LM and TS would, in fact, be decresed dramatically. When things are brought out into the light of day they tend to remain on the up-and-up. Black markets exist easily in the dark but they wither when integrated into a free market. Please don't bother pointing out criminal activity in free market societies. There have always been, and will always be, bad people who want to benefit at the expense of others. When we hurt ourselves while failing to control them we have only made things worse; that is the current state of this issue.

"Most donated organs come from young, otherwise healthy individuals who died unexpectedly. In many cases their families are not prepared to pay the costs associated with death. What would be wrong with having one's funeral expenses paid in exchange for an organ? Perhaps a tax credit?"

Everything you say I haven't considered is directly addressed in those two quotes.

and just as i ignored your points, you made light of mine and your flimsy attempt at answering them showed no real forethought nor any degree of capability on your part to be able to think 'outside the box'...taking other factors into account rather than self.

See the two quotes above. Show me how they are "flimsy attempts". Show me how they contain no "forethought". Show me how they do not take other factors into account. Show me the "self interest". Show me which matters are tivial. Show me or please just stop embarassing yourself.

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by milefile


Everything you say I haven't considered is directly addressed in those two quotes.

please point out where you addressed the issue of one person selling the organs of another person for thier own gain?....i think i missed that..

with prostitution, slavery and human trafficking whats to stop people legally selling their body parts (and the parts of others) for criminal activities?

not only is it illegal in the eyes of the law, in the eyes of god and morally repugnant but even the notion of a poor but healthy person selling one of thier lungs to a rich but disease ridden smoker is utterly foul and should be fought at every turn..

 

[Danoff]

...taking other factors into account rather than self

What should anything else be considered?

please point out where you addressed the issue of one person selling the organs of another person for thier own gain?....i think i missed that..

A person owns thier organs by law. They would have to sell their organs by choice. Just as you own your stereo and would have to sell that by choice. If someone stole your stereo that would be illegal. Same goes for your lungs. See? It's taken into account.

with prostitution, slavery and human trafficking whats to stop people legally selling their body parts (and the parts of others) for criminal activities?

Um... the fact that those acitivities are criminal? What's to stop you from selling your stereo to engage in criminal activities? The fact that it is criminal.

not only is it illegal in the eyes of the law, in the eyes of god and morally repugnant but even the notion of a poor but healthy person selling one of thier lungs to a rich but disease ridden smoker is utterly foul and should be fought at every turn..

What about a rich but healthy person selling one of their lungs to a poor disease ridden smoker? What about a poor healthy person selling to a middle class smoker? What about a middle class healthy person selling to a middle class smoker? What about a poor healthy person selling to a poor smoker? Who the hell cares how much money any of them have? If they agree to the trade, that's all that matters.

The way that last quote reads to me is... freedom of choice, if the choice benefits anyone other than poor people, is foul and should be fought at every turn.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
please point out where you addressed the issue of one person selling the organs of another person for thier own gain?....i think i missed that..

"Please don't bother pointing out criminal activity in free market societies. There have always been, and will always be, bad people who want to benefit at the expense of others. When we hurt ourselves while failing to control them we have only made things worse; that is the current state of this issue."

with prostitution, slavery and human trafficking whats to stop people legally selling their body parts (and the parts of others) for criminal activities?

What's to stop them now? All the current laws do is create an artificial shortage of organs while those who need them die. Prostitution is illegal, which is absurd, and yet it is a thriving industry at the same time. The owner of the body has the right to do what they wish with it. Consenting adults. Slavery is unrelated. Slavery by definition is non-consentual. Including it only clouds the issue.

not only is it illegal in the eyes of the law, in the eyes of god and morally repugnant but even the notion of a poor but healthy person selling one of thier lungs to a rich but disease ridden smoker is utterly foul and should be fought at every turn..

Because the poor people can't be trusted to make sound decisions? Because rich people should be told how they spend their money?

In the eyes of God? What? God says the body is merely a vessel for the soul, that it is profane and transient. Ashes to ashes.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by danoff
What about a rich but healthy person selling one of their lungs to a poor disease ridden smoker? What about a poor healthy person selling to a middle class smoker? What about a middle class healthy person selling to a middle class smoker? What about a poor healthy person selling to a poor smoker? Who the hell cares how much money any of them have? If they agree to the trade, that's all that matters.

Excelently put.

The perspective betrayed in TS's angle on this is that rich people need the government to tell them what to do with "their" money and that poor people are somehow untrustworthy, incapable, and need government patronage.

 

[emad]

personally, i'll donate but i'll never sell mine - if the need for a transplant arrived. I couldn't live with troubling someone that's already suffering - but that's me.

my religion is strictly against selling organs b/c...well, i don't know exactly but there is a reason.

for the amount of time i have right now, this is the best i could find (lunch then exam in 2 hours 45 minutes then FREEEEDOOOOM). Wish i could look some more...it's an interesting topic that i wouldn't mind knowing more about.

The organ can be taken from the body of a living person with his/her consent and approval and also from the body of a dead person. In the case of a living person, the jurists have stipulated that this donation should not deprive him/her of vital organs. It should also not cause risk to his/her normal life.

The Fiqh Academy of the Muslim World League, Makkah also allowed organ donation and transplantation in its 8th session held between 28 Rabi'ul Thani- 7 Jumadal Ula, 1405.

The Fiqh Academy of the Organization of the Islamic Conference in Jeddah, during the year 1408, and the Mufti of Egypt Dr. Sayyed At-Tantawi also allowed the use of the body organs of a person who has died in an accident, if the necessity requires the use of any organ to cure a patient, provided that a competent and trustworthy Muslim physician makes this decision.

It is important to note that most of the jurists have only allowed the donation of the organs. They do not allow the sale of human organs. Their position is that the sale of human organs violates the rules of the dignity and honor of the human being, and so it would be haram in that case.

I should note that the years are based on the islamic calendar...i think

 

[TurboSmoke]

first, let me start by apologising for the tardiness of my reply...i was away for the weekend ..

yep, okay milefile your post wasn't peppered with points driven by self interest..
thats my miskate and i admit it...but i typed that because i already know the self righteous and holier-than-thou attitude that you love to portrey on these forums so i was a bit biassed by that presumption.

danoff the point about why should other factors other than 'self' be considered when making the sale of organs legal? i just though that in a deomocracy someone had to consult the people before making laws....or perhaps i am wrong.

Originally posted by danoff

What about a rich but healthy person selling one of their lungs to a poor disease ridden smoker? What about a poor healthy person selling to a middle class smoker? What about a middle class healthy person selling to a middle class smoker? What about a poor healthy person selling to a poor smoker? Who the hell cares how much money any of them have? If they agree to the trade, that's all that matters.

and also i see what you are trying to say in this point but that isnt what i am saying...
what i was trying to get across was that a rich man can afford hospital treatment where as a poor man cannot in certain countries. it is more likely that a rich smoker will buy a lung from a poor man what ever his intentions may be but its far more open to expliotation....

a rich smoker can get treatment a poor smoker cannot and the poor man dies and the rich man buy his health back because he has the financial means...and your statement about who the hell cares how much money people have is perfectly justified and i have no arguement with that but you must see selling an organ could be a passport to a better life for a poor man but he will ultimately die a premature death to better the life of a man who has brought disease on himself by his own actions...and who cares about money...yes and arent we all born equally? yet we die unequally...

 

[kikkoman]

a bit late in reply but couldnt resist.

Originally posted by Der Alta
I get bonuses on teh sperm if it's a high count, I'm good looking, have a low history of genetic disease and am intelligent. All key factors in determining the "value" of my product.
AO

you forgot to mention "modest"

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

If this were legal should the insurance companies of theses people cover the procedure? I mean if the person needs the organ that bady then they've probably been drowning in medical bills so what makes you think that anyone other than a wealthy person could afford what you would be willing to sell the organ for? Unless insurance somehow paid for it....think of the rates though....

On a side note...if it's Illegal to sell but legal to give/donate then I'll "donate" any organ i can live without or have 2 of and don't need both for a return "donation/thanks for saving my life gift" of a large sum of cash or a skyline GTR.

Anyone on GTP need and organ and have some cas or a GTR? I'm looking at YOU vince a.k.a razor GTR.

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

oops

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
If this were legal should the insurance companies of theses people cover the procedure? I mean if the person needs the organ that bady then they've probably been drowning in medical bills so what makes you think that anyone other than a wealthy person could afford what you would be willing to sell the organ for? Unless insurance somehow paid for it....think of the rates though....

I see no reason why insurance would not cover it like any other procedure. It would have to be fully intergrated into the health care system. It could not exist as some kind of seperate business.

 

[Danoff]

danoff the point about why should other factors other than 'self' be considered when making the sale of organs legal? i just though that in a deomocracy someone had to consult the people before making laws....or perhaps i am wrong.

Yup. And they’ll all take into account only themselves when coming to a decision.

a rich smoker can get treatment a poor smoker cannot and the poor man dies and the rich man buy his health back because he has the financial means...and your statement about who the hell cares how much money people have is perfectly justified and i have no arguement with that but you must see selling an organ could be a passport to a better life for a poor man but he will ultimately die a premature death to better the life of a man who has brought disease on himself by his own actions...and who cares about money...yes and arent we all born equally? yet we die unequally...

Who are you to tell a poor person that they cannot sell their organs? Who are you to say that they are not allowed to shorten their lives for money? Who are you to make that choice for them / me / everyone? You call it exploitation. I call it choice. You call it protection, I call it prison. You say people cannot handle the freedom to decide whether to sell their organs – I say that people should be free to make their own decisions regardless of how well they can handle the responsibility (unless they’re crazy or retarded or something). You say that a rich person should not have more access to health care than a poor person. I say that's one of the reasons people get rich - take those reasons away and they'll no longer do it.

Do you see it yet? You’re trying to protect people from themselves! That’s the most arrogant, untrusting, disgusting view you can take about your fellow man.

 

[RazorGTR]

Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
If this were legal should the insurance companies of theses people cover the procedure? I mean if the person needs the organ that bady then they've probably been drowning in medical bills so what makes you think that anyone other than a wealthy person could afford what you would be willing to sell the organ for? Unless insurance somehow paid for it....think of the rates though....

On a side note...if it's Illegal to sell but legal to give/donate then I'll "donate" any organ i can live without or have 2 of and don't need both for a return "donation/thanks for saving my life gift" of a large sum of cash or a skyline GTR.

Anyone on GTP need and organ and have some cas or a GTR? I'm looking at YOU vince a.k.a razor GTR.

Cheeky bugger