Over-revving damages your engine!

[iLex]

Dear fellow GT fans,

Hereby I apologise for this thread. Apparently I did some reverse logic...

I just won two new Giulias to start testing my theory, but I never got to the test. I gave both the Giulias an oil change, looked at the bhp.... it said 121 (like the "abused" giulia). I then got into the 129 bhp giulia to see if I accidently left some tuning options on it. Luckely that was not the case. So what made the difference between the HPs of both cars?
Then an idea struck me. I saw some posts about "breaking a car in" and I think this was the case. Probably the "unabused" giulia had gained some bhp by me driving it for a few miles. The other car was in the garage after only 50km and when I looked at it after some time I thought it lost the hps.
But the difference between the two giulias was most likely not the result of one losing HPs, but of the other one gaining HPs. I'm sorry that you all spent the time to help me with this. Thanks a lot though!

Regars, iLex





Below you'll find the original start of the thread to put the reactions into context:


There's a lot of evidence that 'redlining' your car makes it lose power. This happend to me yesterday with a new car that lost 13bhp (134->121 !) after about 50km of not so subtle driving (I'm new to manual shifting, so...). Oil change couldn't bring it back. The loss was permanent.

I have some questions about this loss I hope you can help me with:
Is this the same powerloss as you'd have at high mileage?
If not, is there a limit to the loss as there is to the loss of hp at high mileage?


DISCLAIMER
I know there's a thread about this, but it has more off topic than on topic posts and since these questions aren't answered there, I thought it would be 'cleaner' to start a fresh thread. This way people who are interested in this don't have to read through many pages of off topic posts. Hope you agree, editors!

 

[thegreatms]

I'm not sure if this is true or not. I remember testing it when the game first game out. I bought two identical cars and drove the first at below redline arounf the test track for 50 km. Then I ran the second for 50 km bounce off the revlimiter the whole time. The hp was the same at the end.

There is a tiny chance that i am remembering wrong...maybe i did the test with GT3. Also it may matter what car you are driving or other factors.

Maybe I should repeat this test.

 

[iLex]

I can't find any other explanation for the loss of hp. I have two identical Alfa Romeo Guilia Sprint GTA 1600s. The only tiny difference is that 1 has other wheels... that one I drove for 50km while not always shifting correctly and it lost 13hp. The other one still has 134hp.

 

[Michael88]

My Dodge Viper RT10 fully tuned with 1032 HP lost 7 HP after 12 sessions at the drag strip redlining it at the start.

I bought another RT10 tuned it to max am made another 12 sessions with the same settings without redlinig it, it lost 0 HP.
I guess redlining does more damage to high powered engines.

It DOES have an effect on the engine, since that I avoid redlining cars.💡

 

[<_Spike_>]

My cars have suffered a lot at times lol...as I always dive into the red to push every MPH out of the gear as possible (unless it's more of a turny circuit, then it's not so necessary)

 

[Specialized]

My cars have suffered a lot at times lol...as I always dive into the red to push every MPH out of the gear as possible

Me and Diego440 (a friend of mine on GTP) actually experimented with this a while ago. We used a couple of cars, Stock Nismo 400R and somethign else which i cant quite remember. Now although this will not apply to all cars such as high revving engines like S2000's it is actually possible to make a quicker lap time without going near the redline.

First we both drove 3 laps in the 400R like we stole it, revs well into the redline everywhere carefull not to hit the limiter though. Set a pretty good time but i also felt kinda out of control. We then set a rev limit, i think it was 6,500 or somehting, again i dont remember exactly and drove the same course again. The car did seem to be faster and it also seem easyer to control. Fast forward to the finish line and both of us (remember I live in england and diego lives on a remote island of the cost of africa) post our times on msn. We both beat the first times in all instances.

Like i said, it will not appply for all cars but you dont have to coax every last rpm out of the engine to get good lap times.

Spec....

 

[Sonzilla]

Your right, some cars like to rev and some don't. You just have to keep an on the speedo, boost and lap times accordingly.

About loosing power while high reving wow that I never thought would happen. I'm deff going to try this one out.

 

[<_Spike_>]

Me and Diego440 (a friend of mine on GTP) actually experimented with this a while ago. We used a couple of cars, Stock Nismo 400R and somethign else which i cant quite remember. Now although this will not apply to all cars such as high revving engines like S2000's it is actually possible to make a quicker lap time without going near the redline.

First we both drove 3 laps in the 400R like we stole it, revs well into the redline everywhere carefull not to hit the limiter though. Set a pretty good time but i also felt kinda out of control. We then set a rev limit, i think it was 6,500 or somehting, again i dont remember exactly and drove the same course again. The car did seem to be faster and it also seem easyer to control. Fast forward to the finish line and both of us (remember I live in england and diego lives on a remote island of the cost of africa) post our times on msn. We both beat the first times in all instances.

Like i said, it will not appply for all cars but you dont have to coax every last rpm out of the engine to get good lap times.

Spec....

Interesting results then, good to know

 

[iLex]

Thanks for your replies. 👍
It seems that nobody knows the answers to my questions, though.
I'm thinking about e-mailing PD with all the unanswered questions I can find in this forum. I'm probably not the first that's going to try and be dissapointed, but stil...

 

[opendriver]

Like i said, it will not appply for all cars but you dont have to coax every last rpm out of the engine to get good lap times.

Spec....

On some of the smaller engines( 2L NA'd mainly) you have to. Some of those engine dont reach there peak power til right at the line or judt a little over

A good example is the GT1( in my sig) you can redline that thing and it still climbs, despite power loss

 

[Eric.]

Me and Diego440 (a friend of mine on GTP) actually experimented with this a while ago. We used a couple of cars, Stock Nismo 400R and somethign else which i cant quite remember. Now although this will not apply to all cars such as high revving engines like S2000's it is actually possible to make a quicker lap time without going near the redline.

First we both drove 3 laps in the 400R like we stole it, revs well into the redline everywhere carefull not to hit the limiter though. Set a pretty good time but i also felt kinda out of control. We then set a rev limit, i think it was 6,500 or somehting, again i dont remember exactly and drove the same course again. The car did seem to be faster and it also seem easyer to control. Fast forward to the finish line and both of us (remember I live in england and diego lives on a remote island of the cost of africa) post our times on msn. We both beat the first times in all instances.

Like i said, it will not appply for all cars but you dont have to coax every last rpm out of the engine to get good lap times.

Spec....

I believe the same is true about the kei cars and the Audi TT (1.8T). The small turbos run out of breath at high rpm so you need to shift to get back into the powerband. Most of the big block muscle cars are like this too, expecially with a supercharger.

 

[Mayuri Ootsuka]

Would be nice if you could set the dials better in GT4 - (Maybe for GT5?)

Twist them, so you shift at vertical needle, even set the flashy red light upchange guide to your own (lower) rev amount before the engine gets close to its rev limiter.

I suppose a tiny bit of lost horsepower loss is better than what they could have done...

"And Mario is slowing down..."

Shame you can't get an Engine overhaul as you can for the chassis.

Cheers for the warning, May be even more careful at high revs now.

1- So don't hammer the red line
2- Fresh oil more often than you'd think to preserve ultimate Power Output.

 

[<_Spike_>]

Hmm...something that's trampled over my mind, I know you get an initial power loss from such treatment for many cars. But is this a continuous power loss? In other words does it just happen once or will a cars engine continue to lose power if you're so brutal to it?

 

[iLex]

Hmm...something that's trampled over my mind, I know you get an initial power loss from such treatment for many cars. But is this a continuous power loss? In other words does it just happen once or will a cars engine continue to lose power if you're so brutal to it?

That's something I'd like to know too. Maybe it just stops after, say 10%. 10% is what my Alfa Romeo lost.

 

[niky]

There is a basement level, a certain percentage below "stock" hp.

This is exactly the same way engine wear worked in GT3. I purposely short-shifted my F094 (F1 car) in the championship races there to conserve engine life.

I've noticed accelerated wear as being worse on high-revving engine when you go over the redline. You can get more life out of turbo engines because, as Specialized said, you can get more power shifting before redline... on some engines.

But how far before redline you shift depends on the gearbox and the powerband. VAG's 1.8 and 2.0 turbos seem to like being short-shifted a bit...

The Ford FPV Typhoon has the worst high end breathing anywhere, but the long gearbox means that if you short-shift too soon, you're left completely without power...

 

[iLex]

There is a basement level, a certain percentage below "stock" hp.

So this basement is either reached by over-revving, high mileage or a combination of these? In other words: If you shift early, you'll delay the engine wear, but in the end (after a lot of miles) it will lose just as much power as a car that has been 'tortured' by a badly shifting driver (e.g. me )?

 

[Metar]

It also happened to my drift-Stratos (Lancia). It's simply a car that slides a lot, so at first (before I really learned to control power), it redlined a lot. It started with 200HP, now it's at around 186. And this is, even though I changed oil after every single session...

 

[<_Spike_>]

Well, I'll certainly start looking after my cars now, to be honest I already have started, I tend to shift just before the car hits the red line...though I'll admit sometimes I still hammer it.

 

[niky]

So this basement is either reached by over-revving, high mileage or a combination of these? In other words: If you shift early, you'll delay the engine wear, but in the end (after a lot of miles) it will lose just as much power as a car that has been 'tortured' by a badly shifting driver (e.g. me )?

Yup. No matter how you baby the car, after xxxx miles, it will lose all the power it will ever lose. After you've hit the basement, once you oil change, it goes back to "stock" HP, or the erroneous HP that's always shown on the replays.

 

[Duke]

There is a basement level, a certain percentage below "stock" hp.

This is exactly the same way engine wear worked in GT3. I purposely short-shifted my F094 (F1 car) in the championship races there to conserve engine life.

I've noticed accelerated wear as being worse on high-revving engine when you go over the redline. You can get more life out of turbo engines because, as Specialized said, you can get more power shifting before redline... on some engines.

So is it actually experimentally proven that going over redline accelerates the weardown process? I'm not accusing, I'm asking. It seems you're saying that the normal power loss amount doesn't get worse, but the rate that you're losing power does get worse.

I did not notice that effect in GT3. It always seemed to me that the oil light came on nearly like clockwork at 300km or whatever it was, and I usually shift over redline on many cars (with certin exceptions).

 

[streetsmell]

the cien and other cars are toast from redlining and noz they have lost a noticeable amount of ponies.
i wonder if tunning the cars with the power gain is affected by engine wear?
it shouldnt be but do they take into account machining limits of the engine.

 

[VE9FC]

ok so has any one Noticed anything about excessive NOS use?? it's kinda been in the back of My mind

 

[Law93]

all i know is that no matter what, a cars horsepower will go down, but there is a point where the horsepower will not longer drop

 

[iLex]

So is it actually experimentally proven that going over redline accelerates the weardown process?

Actually, I've noticed the sudden drop in hp after only 50km, but I don't think anyone has proven that this is the same loss as with high mileage. I could run both my Alfas in B-spec for hours and hours and see if they lost the same amount of hp in the end. I don't know how many miles it takes, though, before you're engine has taken all the permanent damage (the one you can't fix with an oil change). I'll think about it.

It seems you're saying that the normal power loss amount doesn't get worse, but the rate that you're losing power does get worse.

This is what I'm hoping. Otherwise I'm in for some serious hp loss on some cars

 

[iLex]

OK, I looked in my garage and found something interesting, I think.
I have 2 types of cars in both a 'new' and a used variant and of course the Alfa Romeo I started this thread with. The Nissan Black Beauty was used, but not abused by me (still on auto transmission) and both Mercuries were not used at all (the used one was bought used).
These are the cars. BHP as seen in garage, after oil change.

Nissan R92CP
'Black Beauty' - 951 bhp mileage (63,163.3km)
Prize Car - 1001 bhp (mileage 0.0km)
Difference = 50 bhp -> 5.0% power loss

Mercury Cougar XR-7
Used - 324 bhp (mileage - 92,191.9km)
Prize Car - 341 bhp (mileage 0.0km)
Difference = 17 bhp -> 5.0% power loss

Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint GTA
Unabused - 140 bhp (mileage 77.0km)
Abused - 121 bhp (mileage 49.0km)
Difference = 19 bhp -> 13.6% power loss
Notice that the unabused car has driven more km than the abused car!

Although there are not enough cars in this 'test' to prove anything, I'd say the percentages on the Mercury and Nissan are rediculously 'round' and the difference with the loss of the Alfa is huge.
This would suggest that overrevving your car, does more damage to the engine than high mileage. The Alfa has a mileage of only 50 km, so I think the loss will increase (my guess: to 15% or even 20%, something 'round' at least).

If you have any unused AND used versions of your car, please post the bhps here. Make sure that you either give data for abused cars with low mileage or unused vs. used versions. The used cars must have a pretty high mileage. I don't know when the power loss of high mileage is at it's maximum, but anything over 50,000km/31.000 miles would do (?).
Also make sure that you check the power in the car list in your garage.

I'll probably buy some cars new and used myself and compare data.
I'll change the first post to reflect the data collected.

 

[thegt4masta]

its true i lost about 30 hp in my minolta toyota. i use it a lot for endurance races, tournaments and just messing around. its got 2000 miles on it. i don't care because it doesn't cost anything. i can just race for another one!

 

[DLRgian]

Try 20,000km on a Camaro LM and 11,870km on a CLK GTR. Thats some SERIOUS hp loss. lol

 

[94_XJ]

Me and Diego440 (a friend of mine on GTP) actually experimented with this a while ago. We used a couple of cars, Stock Nismo 400R and somethign else which i cant quite remember. Now although this will not apply to all cars such as high revving engines like S2000's it is actually possible to make a quicker lap time without going near the redline.

First we both drove 3 laps in the 400R like we stole it, revs well into the redline everywhere carefull not to hit the limiter though. Set a pretty good time but i also felt kinda out of control. We then set a rev limit, i think it was 6,500 or somehting, again i dont remember exactly and drove the same course again. The car did seem to be faster and it also seem easyer to control. Fast forward to the finish line and both of us (remember I live in england and diego lives on a remote island of the cost of africa) post our times on msn. We both beat the first times in all instances.

The 400R has absolutely no reason to have a 9k RPM redline. The peak power comes and goes around 7k if my memory serves me. Look at the power curves to see if peak RPM is worth it. I was actually very excited to see that pushing an engine really does take it's toll. Has anyone else noticed that using larger turbos without IC's or just plain larger trubos also will damage the engine after great usage?

Another thing I noticed is that the engine will actually start to create more power as it breaks in too. If you get a new car and drive it a little more mildly for a while, the power will actually go up.

 

[iLex]

thegt4masta and DRLgain, could you please post the new (with oil change) and current (with oil change) bhp values as shown in your garage for my investigation. If you don't have the new bhp values, could someone else post them?
I have a new Camaro LM and CLK race car, so I can check those, but I don't have a minolta yet.
Thanks!

 

[CJ350]

Well, I just A-Spec'd (200pts) and B-Spec'd El Capitan enduro , and the GSX/R4 lost 12hp on both races over the course of the 66 laps. But I don't tend to redline. I did notice that B-Spec Bob got 2 more laps outta the same tires than I did.