Parkland FL HS shooting, shooter arrested, 17 dead

[Biggles]

In the beginning there where protestants, and there was a celebration of freedom and rights but that came with responsibility. Immigrants embraced the U.S. culture more than they influenced it but that's been washed away over time.

Many Americans seem to embrace a mythologized view of American history that bears little relation to reality.

Although they were victims of religious persecution in Europe, the Puritans supported the Old World theory that sanctioned it, the need for uniformity of religion in the state. Once in control in New England, they sought to break "the very neck of Schism and vile opinions." The "business" of the first settlers, a Puritan minister recalled in 1681, "was not Toleration, but [they] were professed enemies of it." Puritans expelled dissenters from their colonies, a fate that in 1636 befell Roger Williams and in 1638 Anne Hutchinson, America's first major female religious leader. Those who defied the Puritans by persistently returning to their jurisdictions risked capital punishment, a penalty imposed on four Quakers between 1659 and 1661. Reflecting on the seventeenth century's intolerance, Thomas Jefferson was unwilling to concede to Virginians any moral superiority to the Puritans. Beginning in 1659 Virginia enacted anti-Quaker laws, including the death penalty for refractory Quakers. Jefferson surmised that "if no capital execution took place here, as did in New England, it was not owing to the moderation of the church, or the spirit of the legislature."

Library of Congress
"Religion & the Founding of the American Republic"

 

[Northstar]

It’s explicable and predictable in some way, but still, shocking (to me) nonetheless.

Perhaps it’s because I never paid any attention to these, and thus have never seen anything like it before.

It is sadly nothing new, in fact there is even a name for it. It's called Hybristophilia.

 

[Rallywagon]

Do you think most of those new "followers" are doing so because they are a "fan" or because they are gawkers looking to watch a train wreck?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Do you think most of those new "followers" are doing so because they are a "fan" or because they are gawkers looking to watch a train wreck?

I'd guess a lot of sad, lonely social misfits who have yet to develop a sense of true empathy in addition to rational thinking.

 

[PeterJB]

Probably get copycats and admirers cause everyone remembers the shooter, not the victims.

 

[ryzno]

Probably get copycats and admirers cause everyone remembers the shooter, not the victims.

Like the girl who admitted to bullying him at a rally and continued to blame it on guns? Oh wait she said they knew and "Those talking about how we should have not ostracized him, you didn't know this kid. Okay, we did." which I guess makes it ok... Prod the bear...
http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...a-gonzalez-did-not-admit-bullying-parkland-s/
Sickening the attention they get. I do feel bad for the true victims, not Hogg and her...

 

[UKMikey]

Like the girl who admitted to bullying him at a rally and continued to blame it on guns? Oh wait she said they knew and "Those talking about how we should have not ostracized him, you didn't know this kid. Okay, we did." which I guess makes it ok... Prod the bear...
http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...a-gonzalez-did-not-admit-bullying-parkland-s/
Sickening the attention they get. I do feel bad for the true victims, not Hogg and her...

According to your article Gonzalez reported the shooter, not bullied him.

 

[Biggles]

Like the girl who admitted to bullying him at a rally and continued to blame it on guns? Oh wait she said they knew and "Those talking about how we should have not ostracized him, you didn't know this kid. Okay, we did." which I guess makes it ok... Prod the bear...
http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...a-gonzalez-did-not-admit-bullying-parkland-s/
Sicking the attention they get. I do feel bad for the true victims not Hogg and her...

What?

Did you actually read the article you linked to? It states, in summary:

"Project Republic has no evidence to show that Gonzalez bullied Cruz; she didn’t admit; and the retweet doesn’t say what Project Republic said.

We rate the statement False."

 

[ryzno]

I guess I should have struck out more than one word...
I still disagree with her statements period. I don't know any white people with the last name Cruz.

 

[Blood Eagle]

I guess I should have struck out more than one word...
I still disagree with her statements period. I don't know any white people with the last name Cruz.

The Cruz name was his adopted name.

 

[McLaren]

"There is one tweet I would like to call attention to. ‘So many signs that the Florida shooter was mentally disturbed, even expelled for bad and erratic behavior. Neighbors and classmates knew he was a big problem. Must always report such instances to authorities again and again.’ We did, time and time again. Since he was in middle school, it was no surprise to anyone who knew him to hear that he was the shooter. Those talking about how we should have not ostracized him, you didn't know this kid. Okay, we did. We know that they are claiming mental health issues, and I am not a psychologist, but we need to pay attention to the fact that this was not just a mental health issue. He would not have harmed that many students with a knife."

And yet to date, the debate is about guns and "needs", not about holding any of these people responsible, from the police officers who visited Cruz to federal agents who failed to notice these reports.

Deliciously ironic these are the folks we need to entrust with protecting us and turn weapons over to.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I guess I should have struck out more than one word...
I still disagree with her statements period. I don't know any white people with the last name Cruz.

What does ethnicity have to do with this? Also why post up something that wasn't verified properly and only seems to be right winged antics of false narratives to help bolster support. And not from a agreed upon source either. It just further undermines those who are actually arguing without the need to try and find a boogeyman.

 

[Rallywagon]

Honestly, I dont see bullying as a defense anyway. Maybe this belongs in the unpopular opinion thread but i was quite ruthlessly bullied from 1st till 9th grade. Not once did i consider shooting my entire school. I may have harbored some very ill will, and gotten into quite a number of fights with said bullies. But, i dont think any sane individual would ever take revenge to the point of killing random people in the way that happened in florida or sandy hook, or Columbine just because of bullying. Hell, millions of kids are bullied everyday with no shootings. The bullying may have become the straw on the proverbial camels back but from what i understand there were all sorts of clues and incidents leading up to this that were clear indications the shooter was quite unstable, all of which seem to have been ignored.

 

[TexRex]

I don't know any white people with the last name Cruz.

You just hurt Ted's feelings.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Honestly, I dont see bullying as a defense anyway. Maybe this belongs in the unpopular opinion thread but i was quite ruthlessly bullied from 1st till 9th grade. Not once did i consider shooting my entire school. I may have harbored some very ill will, and gotten into quite a number of fights with said bullies. But, i dont think any sane individual would ever take revenge to the point of killing random people in the way that happened in florida or sandy hook, or Columbine just because of bullying. Hell, millions of kids are bullied everyday with no shootings. The bullying may have become the straw on the proverbial camels back but from what i understand there were all sorts of clues and incidents leading up to this that were clear indications the shooter was quite unstable, all of which seem to have been ignored.

That's you though, everyone is different, and handles that pain differently. Doesn't mean their final solution is right, but you poke a bear enough times and you may regret what happens when they finally snap. Add that with the fact that some people who are bullied are genetically prone to depression, anxiety, bi polar and so on...and your situation to their situation changes vastly, even if you had those chemical brain imbalances too.

You just hurt Ted's feelings.

He's half cuban, though I will admit he hails from one of the more majorly white regions of the U.S. in my eyes and... "oh Canada, oh Canada"

 

[TexRex]

He's half cuban, though I will admit he hails from one of the more majorly white regions of the U.S. in my eyes... "oh Canada, oh Canada"

He sure looks awful white. I know plenty of people with names that sound incredibly south-of-the-border who you would immediately assume are white.

Edit: And for all intents and purposes, they are. To the point that they're clueless when confronting a menu at a Mexican restaurant.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

He sure looks awful white. I know plenty of people with names that sound incredibly south-of-the-border who you would immediately assume are white.

Edit: And for all intents and purposes, they are. To the point that they're clueless when confronting a menu at a Mexican restaurant.

Same could be said for those who have non-Hispanic/Spanish last names, and are Hispanic/Spanish descent. I myself for example. And while he make look white and while the joke is funny, it still stands his Father is Cuban and quite light himself like many from the region.

Still unsure what this has to do with parkland

 

[Rallywagon]

He sure looks awful white. I know plenty of people with names that sound incredibly south-of-the-border who you would immediately assume are white.

Edit: And for all intents and purposes, they are. To the point that they're clueless when confronting a menu at a Mexican restaurant.

I also know a number of Mexicans who are white, but very much Mexican. The northern parts of the America's different the only ones that had European settlers the Mexican natives were just better at keeping their lands to themselves.

That's you though, everyone is different, and handles that pain differently. Doesn't mean their final solution is right, but you poke a bear enough times and you may regret what happens when they finally snap. Add that with the fact that some people who are bullied are genetically prone to depression, anxiety, bi polar and so on...and your situation to their situation changes vastly, even if you had those chemical brain imbalances too.



He's half cuban, though I will admit he hails from one of the more majorly white regions of the U.S. in my eyes and... "oh Canada, oh Canada"

Thank you for agreeing with my point that bullying itself isnt a root cause. As such, it shouldnt be touted as some sort of defense to killing a crap load of people.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Thank you for agreeing with my point that bullying itself isnt a root cause. As such, it shouldnt be touted as some sort of defense to killing a crap load of people.

Don't think any logical person would agree it's a defense, but it is a cause and that shouldn't be ignored. If you and other people wish to solely relegate it on something else, such as weapon stigmas, mental stigma, economic stigmas and whatever else, okay.

Should I thank you for missing half the context of my point, and only taking the part that I agreed with you on thus needing to reiterate in hopes you would acknowledge it this time? Or thank you for highlighting the differences you realized, yet still felt the need to share your personal situation with bullying as if it somehow is a fair shake for all?

Once again in case you missed it, your issues and how you treat them are not the same to those who have a similar experience nor should it be expected for them to be the same.

 

[Rallywagon]

Not just my experience. I am far from the only person whos been bullied. Now if you want to talk about missing context, or i suppose implying context, i said i don't see bullying as some sort of defense for going on a killing spree and clearly there were issues far deeper than bullying at play. Never said that it wasn't a contributing factor, only that its not a defense. Take that whatever way you wish, but there are enough posts flying around FB and the twitter sphere that are trying to push that as the main issue.

 

[Liquid]

Many Americans seem to embrace a mythologized view of American history that bears little relation to reality.

Although they were victims of religious persecution in Europe, the Puritans supported the Old World theory that sanctioned it, the need for uniformity of religion in the state. Once in control in New England, they sought to break "the very neck of Schism and vile opinions." The "business" of the first settlers, a Puritan minister recalled in 1681, "was not Toleration, but [they] were professed enemies of it." Puritans expelled dissenters from their colonies, a fate that in 1636 befell Roger Williams and in 1638 Anne Hutchinson, America's first major female religious leader. Those who defied the Puritans by persistently returning to their jurisdictions risked capital punishment, a penalty imposed on four Quakers between 1659 and 1661. Reflecting on the seventeenth century's intolerance, Thomas Jefferson was unwilling to concede to Virginians any moral superiority to the Puritans. Beginning in 1659 Virginia enacted anti-Quaker laws, including the death penalty for refractory Quakers. Jefferson surmised that "if no capital execution took place here, as did in New England, it was not owing to the moderation of the church, or the spirit of the legislature."

Library of Congress
"Religion & the Founding of the American Republic"

It's an aside to this thread but that's very interesting to read. I had known for some time that the Pilgrims/Puritains/delete as applicable/ didn't leave England because of persecution, they left England to persecute; they were appalled at the (extremely relative) religious freedom in England at the time and sought a place to create their own confessional theocracy.

But it's engaging to read some documented testimony as to what exactly they did.

 

[Dotini]

...debate is...not about holding any of these people responsible, from the police officers who visited Cruz to federal agents who failed to notice these reports. Deliciously ironic

Of course not. In a postindustrial, postmodern society, the denial of normative ideals removes the possibility of ethical responsibility.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Not just my experience. I am far from the only person whos been bullied. Now if you want to talk about missing context, or i suppose implying context, i said i don't see bullying as some sort of defense for going on a killing spree and clearly there were issues far deeper than bullying at play. Never said that it wasn't a contributing factor, only that its not a defense. Take that whatever way you wish, but there are enough posts flying around FB and the twitter sphere that are trying to push that as the main issue.

Yet you used your personal experience as a means to make a point. I'm sure plenty of people here and other places have experienced bullying of varying degrees. Also I'm sure there has been plenty of times where people who didn't suffer some sort of chemical imbalance still acted out due to being bullied. The fact it is a factor should be issue enough to where it is addressed both way, to potentially stop something from happening, that's the point. It doesn't need to be the sole reason and just because something is a factor/issue, doesn't make it a defense.

However, again just cause you or me or anyone else was able to get through that doesn't mean much. Also a sad reality is some people tend to lash out at themselves and do harm to themselves due to bullying.

 

[Rallywagon]

Oh dear... how dare i interject person experience into a discussion. For shame!

 

[UKMikey]

I personally think it's crazy to suggest that outlets like CNN didn't intentionally use these kids to push their message. The notion that folks like CNN are somehow unaware of the emotional implications of putting these victims on TV to advocate for their cause is naive.

While the victims' statements may have aligned with whatever agenda CNN may have been pushing it sounds more likely to me that those kids came up with their statements themselves than that CNN told them what to say.

Do you think that they were heavily briefed or coached and that it's crazy to believe that they weren't? If they were and their message was misrepresented by the media then it seems to me that that would be a newsworthy story in itself.

 

[Blood Eagle]

While the victims' statements may have aligned with whatever agenda CNN may have been pushing it sounds more likely to me that those kids came up with their statements themselves than that CNN told them what to say.

Do you think that they were heavily briefed or coached and that it's crazy to believe that they weren't? If they were and their message was misrepresented by the media then it seems to me that that would be a newsworthy story in itself.

I don't know if it was scripted or not but to me the Town Hall was very opportunistic and created specifically to put gun rights advocates on the spot, face to face with victims, to create emotion laden sound bites to further the agenda. It had nothing to do with reasonable discussion, an exchange of ideas, etc. The media used these kids to generate emotional responses. It's actually a clever tactic.

 

[huskeR32]

I don't know if it was scripted or not but to me the Town Hall was very opportunistic and created specifically to put gun rights advocates on the spot, face to face with victims, to create emotion laden sound bites to further the agenda. It had nothing to do with reasonable discussion, an exchange of ideas, etc. The media used these kids to generate emotional responses. It's actually a clever tactic.

How else can you have "reasonable discussion" or an "exchange of ideas" if you don't get the involved parties face to face?

Seems to me that folks unhappy with what these kids are saying are finding it easier to gin up cries of "liberal agenda" than to treat these kids with respect and find some answers to their tough questions. Which is a pathetic way for adults to conduct themselves, if you ask me.

 

[Northstar]

I think high schooler's are old enough to know what they are getting into when it comes to things like the town hall so I really see no problem with it. Saying that, I'm sure CNN screened all the participants in order to determine who would provide the best TV, but that's hardly unique to CNN.

Now if they were using pre-school kids or something I would probably question their motives.

 

[Blood Eagle]

How else can you have "reasonable discussion" or an "exchange of ideas" if you don't get the involved parties face to face?

Seems to me that folks unhappy with what these kids are saying are finding it easier to gin up cries of "liberal agenda" than to treat these kids with respect and find some answers to their tough questions. Which is a pathetic way for adults to conduct themselves, if you ask me.

The argument that people who support gun rights don't care about children, humanity, lives, etc is wrong. The argument that anyone who takes donations from the NRA is complicit in murder is wrong. The argument that politicians are murderers themselves is wrong. It's all irrational emotional appeal intended to validate a point of view. And that's literally what these kids were saying on tv. I'm happy to agree to disagree about who was driving the ship but I don't believe it was just well-intentioned kids trying to make a cultural change through action and not in anyway shaped or influenced by outside sources attempting to push an agenda.

 

[ryzno]

How else can you have "reasonable discussion" or an "exchange of ideas" if you don't get the involved parties face to face?

Seems to me that folks unhappy with what these kids are saying are finding it easier to gin up cries of "liberal agenda" than to treat these kids with respect and find some answers to their tough questions. Which is a pathetic way for adults to conduct themselves, if you ask me.

Tough questions? Seemed like Hogg spent the whole time yelling at the crowd and cussing every chance he could...