Parkland FL HS shooting, shooter arrested, 17 dead

[Danoff]

Loving this logic. 'The US has the worst violent crime rates in the western world. I know what's a good idea! Let's let them keep the main weapons they use to do it!'. Other countries have banned guns and seen gun-related murders fall, but that's just pure coincidence.

We've been through this... thoroughly... in the last shooting thread. The overall murder rate in the US has fallen at least as fast if not faster than those same nations since they banned guns. Once again, violence is what matters here, not guns.

The US has had 18 school shootings this year while the rest of the WORLD has had 18 in the last 20 years, but that's just coincidence! We have a real-life example of a country which adopted gun control in the 90's and saw gun-related deaths drop like a stone, but guess what.... I'll let you finish that.

...but not violent deaths (relative to the US). Which is what actually matters.

In fairness, I'm being a bit sarcastic there I admit. And someone who REALLY wants to kill someone, will kill someone with or without a gun. But looking at the overwhelming evidence, do you not think there might be just the slightest chance that America's violence problem has a cause/effect link with the amount of guns in society?

Yes, our violence problem makes us want guns to be able to protect ourselves from the violence problem.

The US has the highest number of guns + the highest number of homicides + the highest amount of violent crime. It's not rocket science.

...agreed, this is easier than rocket science... you're inferring causality where you have no basis to do so.

Ah, the freedom argument. You realise that in the Human Freedom Index, you guys are ranked 20th right? Below 16 European countries, Australia, Canada and Hong Kong.

Does that mean we should want less freedom?

 

[LennyB]

Maybe because this thread is about a mass shooting?

 

[NotThePrez]

Loving this logic. 'The US has the worst violent crime rates in the western world. I know what's a good idea! Let's let them keep the main weapons they use to do it!'. Other countries have banned guns and seen gun-related murders fall, but that's just pure coincidence. The US has had 18 school shootings this year while the rest of the WORLD has had 18 in the last 20 years, but that's just coincidence! We have a real-life example of a country which adopted gun control in the 90's and saw gun-related deaths drop like a stone, but guess what.... I'll let you finish that.

I think you're missing @Danoff's point. Would taking away all guns, unrealistic as that is, curb some violent crime? Most likely, yes. But the bigger issue is America having a violence problem as a whole. All banning guns would do is take away another means of violent crimes, something that can be worked around without too much hassle.

Reducing violent acts is, in my opinion, more of a societal issue that we, as a nation, need to address. That includes education and re-education, re-evaluation on laws in regards to gun ownership and mental health, reducing the stigma associated with seeking mental health, mandatory and enforced weapon training for those that wish to procure a firearm, etc. There is a violence problem in America, and some people aqcuire weapons to give themselves a sense of saftey. Taking away guns and/or super strict gun control by themselves would not fix the violence problem in America.

 

[LennyB]

Heart disease is the number one killer in the U.K., please allow me to enforce my dietary restrictions upon you. I mean come on now people, 42,000 deaths a year from something easily preventable?

 

[Joey D]

I'll ask another way, why does it matter so much to people living in other countries that in the U.S. 500 people die each year from mass shootings?

Considering the US likes to force it's views on other countries, sometimes with multi-billion dollar military operations, it stands to reason others would do the same thing. Also while the US is attempting to control other countries without the ability to correct an issue that needs correcting domestically, it makes us look bad.

 

[Danoff]

I think you're missing @Danoff's point. Would taking away all guns, unrealistic as that is, curb some violent crime? Most likely, yes.

But not as much as some folks might think - because banning guns for self defense encourages some violence (because your victim is unarmed). So looking back at the graph, some people might be inclined to pretend that banning guns would get rid of all of the gun homicides in that chart - which is almost certainly wrong. Many of those homicides would happen with guns even in the wake of a ban, but supposing they could be magically disappeared, many of those homicides would happen without guns as well. Even if we could achieve the impossible, disappear all guns overnight in the US, and prevent any murder that would have happened with a gun from happening with some other weapon, even then... the US stacks up very badly.

 

[TexRex]

Where is the outrage of the 5,000 people who die each year from sour food?

https://cspinet.org/news/trump-admi...y-delays-key-food-safety-protections-20180104

 

[LennyB]

Considering the US likes to force it's views on other countries, sometimes with multi-billion dollar military operations, it stands to reason others would do the same thing. Also while the US is attempting to control other countries without the ability to correct an issue that needs correcting domestically, it makes us look bad.

Ah right, because we do that wrong thing in order to secure resources for our greedy selves it stands to reason everyone else should complain about what we do on our own soil. How about simply being justifiably angry about what we do in other peoples yards.

 

[Joey D]

Ah right, because we do that wrong thing in order to secure resources for our greedy selves it stands to reason everyone else should complain about what we do on our own soil. How about simply being justifiably angry about what we do in other peoples yards.

I was just answering your question about why some people care about gun deaths in the US.

The US likes to poke its nose into other countries' business but typically doesn't like it when someone else start poking their nose into ours. If you move away from the government, even US citizens have strong opinions of how other countries should operate. Just bring up universal healthcare. Whether its a good or bad idea is besides the point, but it works for X country, then why is Y country so concerned about it when it doesn't affect any citizen in Y country.

 

[LennyB]

The US likes to poke its nose into other countries' business

It irks me because I don't do that sort of thing, poking your nose in others affairs.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Where is the outrage of the 5,000 people who die each year from sour food?

Accidental deaths occurring during something that every human on the planet needs to do, and does do, is not the same as Americas voluntary and cultural obsession with guns - to even try and equate the two things is nothing but another deflection.

 

[LennyB]

Accidental deaths occurring during something that every human on the planet needs to do, and does do, is not the same as Americas voluntary and cultural obsession with guns - to even try and equate the two things is nothing but another deflection.

I don't think it is, we do have a problem with education but taking away peoples irons fixes it about as much as removing fish tacos from the menu.

 

[Lord Kacperov]

This is sadly true. If America wanted to solve this, they would have done so already.

https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1823016659

If I have to...

Firearm related death rate per 100,000 per year:
10.54 United States
-------
1.01 Germany
0.93 Australia
0.23 United Kingdom
0.06 Japan

Admittedly, Wikipedia, but I'll find other sources if I have to. The evidence isn't indicative, it's overwhelming.

Basically, if it's harder to get a gun, there's going to be less deaths due to guns. I can't put it simpler.

Disarmament is happening in Brazil, according to Wikipedia. And despite that, Brazil stood at 21.2 in 2014, much worse than the US. You can take your conclusions, or do your own research.

 

[TexRex]

Aaaaand nothing meaningful...

 

[Danoff]

Accidental deaths occurring during something that every human on the planet needs to do, and does do, is not the same as Americas voluntary and cultural obsession with guns - to even try and equate the two things is nothing but another deflection.

I know that there is not much interest in understanding in these threads. But if you want to understand why Americans are interested in having guns for self-defense, take a look at the violence figures posted on the previous page. It also, when you get right down to it, comes from a level of personal responsibility and mistrust in the US government that folks outside the US often just can't really appreciate. If something violent happens to us, we don't think "my government let me down", we think "why didn't I do something". That's why people buy guns, because when it comes to their safety, the buck stops with them, personally.

Especially in rural areas, our 911 response time isn't that great.

 

[Joey D]

It irks me because I don't do that sort of thing, poking your nose in others affairs.

I guessing many Americans don't poke their noses into other's affairs. But, enough do and our government certainly does, which has earned us a reputation abroad. This is why I think so many people like to throw their 2 cents in when something happens in the US.

 

[-Cheezman-]

Price we pay for freedom? Is that what this is to you?

90% of all traffic fatalities are due to human error. Every single time you sit in the drivers seat of your Elentra, you are knowingly and willingly endangering yourself, and those around. You know full well the potential negative consequences of your actions, yet, you choose the freedom to drive anyway.

I fail to see how firearm ownership is any different. The vast majority never use, or intend to use them for harm. Yet, it happens. Those negative consequences of that "freedom" still happen.

So I ask you, since keeping people safe is clearly very important to you; when are you going to crush your Elantra and cut up your drivers license? You'll potentially save lives, including your own.

Accidental deaths occurring during something that every human on the planet needs to do, and does do, is not the same as Americas voluntary and cultural obsession with guns - to even try and equate the two things is nothing but another deflection.

Self defense isn't a necessity?

The world's dark history of genocide is what has convinced me that the negative consequences of private ownership of weapons is a very small price to pay for the unbelievably disturbing amount of mass violence it can actually prevent. It's arrogant to believe such atrocities can't happen anywhere, at anytime around the globe; I know of several that have happened in my lifetime.

 

[Dennisch]

Disarmament is happening in Brazil, according to Wikipedia. And despite that, Brazil stood at 21.2 in 2014, much worse than the US. You can take your conclusions, or do your own research.

Brazil is, as Trump would say, a **** hole.

 

[LennyB]

The world's dark history of genocide is what has convinced me that the negative consequences of private ownership of weapons is a very small price to pay for the unbelievably disturbing amount of mass violence it can actually prevent. It's arrogant to believe such atrocities can't happen anywhere, at anytime around the globe; I know of several that have happened in my lifetime.

Amen.

Just remember though, the majority of people on all sides of the argument don't even know what the second amendment says and why. It's a shame.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Self defense isn't a necessity?

I take it you wear a bullet proof vest at all times? Or are you not actually serious about self defense?

 

[TexRex]

So I ask you, since keeping people safe is clearly very important to you; when are you going to crush your Elantra and cut up your drivers license?

Ah, the oh-so-popular "cars are more dangerous than guns" argument. I guess that's why registration for a car must be maintained, and there's no such requirement for guns. Sure, a license to carry must, but so does a license to operate a car.

 

[McLaren]

The 18 school shootings this year is more fear mongering by the media.

I highly suggest people look into each of those accounts before spouting off the media trying to act like 18 different mass shootings took place on a campus.

Jan 6th - 32 year old fired a pellet gun into a school bus. No injuries.
Jan 3rd - 31 year old man committed suicide in a school parking lot after hours of police negotiation.
Jan 4th - shots fired from outside the school into the administration office. No injuries.
Jan 9th - 14 year old found dead from self-inflicted wound in school bathroom.
Jan 10th - Criminal justice student fired a bullet through a wall after mistaking it for a training gun.
Jan 15 - Suspects exchanged gunfire with a man in a dorm parking lot.
Jan 25 - 16 year old fired shots in the air after fighting with another 16 year old.
Feb 1 - student opened fired striking 2 others. 3 others suffered injuries but police believe the shooting was unintentional.
Feb 5 - Third grader grabbed an officers weapon while it was holstered and fired off a shot.

Details are important. There’s a big difference in someone committing this thread’s crime and someone mistaking a gun for a training one.

 

[racingchamp30]

Instead of people politicizing a mass shooting, how about looking at the fact this is happening way too many times in the United States that we have homegrown terrorists in this country who have no problem thinking out and acting out on doing a terrorist strike in a high school. Look at the fact the USA has a major problem with some people in the USA who think they belong having every weapon possible twisting around what the 2nd amendment was all for. We have law enforcement and Military which the USA did not have back when the 2nd amendment was created. People are not hunting down their food with a weapon that sprays bullets. This isn't about banning all guns, this is about the fact our country has way too many mass shootings in a very short period of time and nothing is getting done over it.

 

[LennyB]

Ah, the oh-so-popular "cars are more dangerous than guns" argument. I guess that's why registration for a car must be maintained, and there's no such requirement for guns. Sure, a license to carry must, but so does a license to operate a car.

It's more or less the same, the reason for car registration is that the car is going to be used on a public road funded with tax dollars, you don't get to do what you wish on it. If you want to use a gun to hunt on federal, state, or blm(yes it's fed but different) you need to have the same registration, just ask a game warden.

To protect your persons and home you can carry whatever you want, it's kind off a human right I'd think. What you might not understand is what some call a right to protect yourself from the government, I don't consider that a right though, I consider that a duty.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I know that there is not much interest in understanding in these threads. But if you want to understand why Americans are interested in having guns for self-defense, take a look at the violence figures posted on the previous page. It also, when you get right down to it, comes from a level of personal responsibility and mistrust in the US government that folks outside the US often just can't really appreciate. If something violent happens to us, we don't think "my government let me down", we think "why didn't I do something". That's why people buy guns, because when it comes to their safety, the buck stops with them, personally.

Especially in rural areas, our 911 response time isn't that great.

I neither particularly agree or disagree with what you said, but the context of my comment was Lennys comparison of public outcry over accidental death from food poising versus public outcry against mass shootings in schools. We cannot legislate or do away with food in society, we can with guns... the majority of the UK (for instance) demonstrate that it's perfectly feasible to live without ever seeing a real gun... I don't think the same can be said of food. The two things are not comparable, it's a deflection, simple as that.

 

[LennyB]

We cannot legislate or do away with food in society

We try though, we try about as hard as we do to eradicate guns, well not all of us try to but the PC people do.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/27/...-appeal-on-limiting-sales-of-large-sodas.html

Sooner or later I'll take your big mac away, or your health insurance away if you keep eating them, why? Because I'm the one with the gun.

 

[MatskiMonk]

We try though, we try about as hard as we do to eradicate guns, well not all of us try to but the PC people do.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/27/...-appeal-on-limiting-sales-of-large-sodas.html

Sooner or later I'll take your big mac away, or your health insurance away if you keep eating them, why? Because I'm the one with the gun.

Can you at least use the gun to make sure the burger looks like what it does in the picture first?

 

[Danoff]

the majority of the UK (for instance) demonstrate that it's perfectly feasible to live without ever seeing a real gun

A lot of people in the US live without ever seeing a real gun as well. But the UK has roughly half of the murder rate of the US even if you ignore all US gun murder.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Because you claimed as if something was banned, the chances of it happening would lessen. If this man converted an AR15 into an automatic weapon, that would be doing something that is banned.

The point is criminals don't follow laws. We have gun free zones & cities with strict gun laws. This hasn't kept them free of gun-related incidents.

Agreed. Just take a look at the homicide rate in Chicago alone. 60 people killed this year alone, on pace for 76 homicides through this month alone. Of those killed, only one killed in Self-defense. (source)

When he says blame the USA, I'm guessing he means gun policy, rather than every member of that nation.

The issue is that our gun policy was set since our independence. Doesn't hold much water if our process is bypassed to get guns out of the mental.

Start with mandatory mental health checks.

We did try that. Ever heard of the Brady Bill? It didn't exactly work.

It's better to fix the current systems put in place to actually function as intended, since certain shootings happened due to their incompetence and failure to report certain things. The perfect example of this was Sutherland Springs where the guy had a domestic violence charge, which should've banned him from getting guns completely.

Major difference between the two. One is gross negligance in reporting the crime, but the other is that he had no known criminal history. No criminal history, right to own a gun is not taken away.

That would be another good start. But again, not gonna happen because muh guns.

Which we have a constitutional right to. Or did the Heller decision went over your head?

Just look how people respond to possible changes to gun laws.

That's right because we have 200 years of jurisprudence that says that ordinary citizens can carry a weapon. The Heller decision just reinforced that.

Basically, if it's harder to get a gun, there's going to be less deaths due to guns. I can't put it simpler.

Not true, criminals can get a hold of a weapon just as easily if there is no guns and kill someone. I stress this over and over again, but I feel like that it is a necessity to repeat it here. Ordinary citizens are the real first responders and that a good guy with a gun will put down the threat faster than the police ever could.

That's why I said enforce better regulations. Start with the health checks for every single gun owner. History of violence? No gun for you! History of mental issues? No gun for you!

The problem is that we tried that during the Clinton administration. It didn't work. I will stress that I agree with the fact that we should get guns out of the hands of criminals, but the truth of the matter is that making background checks mandatory just doesn't work.

Don't you think there might be a link?

What is your definition of homicide?

Loving this logic. 'The US has the worst violent crime rates in the western world. I know what's a good idea! Let's let them keep the main weapons they use to do it!'.

You are putting the cart before the horse. By that logic, do you think that everything that is capable of committing murder should be very much regulated like guns are today?

 

[Danoff]

Ordinary citizens are the real first responders and that a good guy with a gun will put down the threat faster than the police ever could.

or if not put down, at least... stall. That's what happened at the University of Texas in the 60s, and I think it's more prevalent than people give credit for. If you can just get the slightest pause in the brain of a psychopath would-be mass murderer, you might save a life. If you can get several pauses, you might save several lives.