Partial Government Shutdown. Re opened 10/17/13

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

The Guardian are reporting that "US stock markets tumble as shutdown worries investors" and go on to note that the Dow Jones has suffered it's biggest drop since September 20... that's a whole two weeks!!1!

I found it interesting that the stock market went up on the day of the shutdown. Today was also a good day for the stock market.

 

[Carlos]

I found it interesting that the stock market went up on the day of the shutdown. Today was also a good day for the stock market.

Be happy!

 

[Adamgp]

Didn't know to post this here or the America thread:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...on-plan-to-slow-dc-beltway-arrest-congressmen

 

[photonrider]

These sentiments seem to contradict.

Yes - if logic is applied to it without imagination, metaphor and the punchline.

Much like:

photonrider
White is good as a foil since Black is good as the accent.

Danoff

photonrider
White is good........Black is good.

This is a contradiction

Let me wax less poetic:
The world of the dinosaurs is gone; the world keeps turning.

Has the government really 'shut down'?
Someone couldn't have their wedding in the park, someone else lost their job, someone else stalls on a decision and then enjoys a scrumptious lunch at the Bombay Club.
For some people the world ended. For others it will continue to spin most merrily.

And, no, Danoff, that doesn't mean the planet is going to burst into song.

Keef's post hits very close to the truth. This is trimming the fat - high-stakes poker-style.

 

[Danoff]

Yes - if logic is applied to it without imagination, metaphor and the punchline.

Much like:





Let me wax less poetic:
The world of the dinosaurs is gone; the world keeps turning.

Has the government really 'shut down'?
Someone couldn't have their wedding in the park, someone else lost their job, someone else stalls on a decision and then enjoys a scrumptious lunch at the Bombay Club.
For some people the world ended. For others it will continue to spin most merrily.

And, no, Danoff, that doesn't mean the planet is going to burst into song.

Keef's post hits very close to the truth. This is trimming the fat - high-stakes poker-style.

I must be stupid, because I can't figure out what you're trying to say with your world stops turning/world keeps turning analogies.

This is still political posturing. The world keeps turning, the weather keeps changing.

Meaning, presumably - politics as usual, nothing has changed, and it won't change anything.

Basically, someone better make up their minds quick before the whole world shuts down . . . which is a whole other thing.

Meaning, presumably, politics as usual will result in drastic repercussions.

Again, clearly if I just had more than one brain cell to rub together I'd see what it is you're so eloquently saying.

 

[Doodle]

Didn't know to post this here or the America thread:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...on-plan-to-slow-dc-beltway-arrest-congressmen

Well that sucks. I take that highway to school every day! 👎

 

[Sam48]

Well that sucks. I take that highway to school every day! 👎

Wait, you mean they didn't shut down the schools as part of the government shutdown!?... 🤬, I'm gonna have a lot of explaining to do.

 

[photonrider]

I must be stupid, because I can't figure out what you're trying to say with your world stops turning/world keeps turning analogies.

I doubt you're stupid; it's probably me being obtuse.

Meaning, presumably - politics as usual, nothing has changed, and it won't change anything.

No, it won't. (Though it is only change that is the constant.) While for some, their world will end when that death benefit check doesn't come in.

Meaning, presumably, politics as usual will result in drastic repercussions.

It always has. For some. But this is two-pronged; eventually the politics of one country will affect another, and another, and another - and eventually the whole world - whether the world of commerce, the world of evolution, or just the world of politics itself.

Again, clearly if I just had more than one brain cell to rub together I'd see what it is you're so eloquently saying.

I'm sure you're educated enough to know that if you had one brain cell then the origin of consciousness would not have taken place in your bicameral mind.

Danoff - I cannot place myself in your shoes, adequately; it must be tough to be American right now. It must be frustrating, over-whelming, even mind-numbing to deal with the issues that the American people are dealing with right now. I love America - always have, since I put on my first pair of Levis and dug into warm apple pie. I love it's ideals, love it's geography, and every American I have met in real life has charmed me.
To say I'm sorry for the American people would be an understatement.
As Non-Americans, no doubt we come across as complacent; but that may not be really the case. We do feel the pain. It can't be helped; America is on a world stage - but we are all very much a part of that world.

 

[Dotini]

The sequester and the shutdown don't seem such a bad thing. Maybe the lack of a higher debt ceiling on October 17th wouldn't be so bad either?

The way I see it, the worst that could happen would be that global markets could become slightly unnerved at the chance that the US would not or could not pay interest on US federal bonds, T-bill or notes. Of course, that would not happen, as the US has plenty of revenue to pay these obligations. It is the risk, perception, or fear of default that might drive global loss of confidence in these US debt instruments of which I speak. If, globally, businessmen, bankers, and governments lost confidence in US debt, then a slowdown in global business would occur until a new form of trusted, fungible collateral took its place.

All this means the only thing to fear is a gradual slowdown in economic activity. Ho hum. There will always be winners and losers. The human race always faces difficulties. So what?

For us to go down the river of time, sometimes we must go giddily over the falls. Yet the river goes on.

The refusal of the President to negotiate, and the refusal of the Republicans to give away the game, make it likely that the 17th will come and go without a deal. I expect we will all learn something very interesting, yet perhaps also quite boring, come the morning of October 18th.

 

[Touring Mars]

Wait, you mean they didn't shut down the schools as part of the government shutdown!?... 🤬, I'm gonna have a lot of explaining to do.

Busted.

The sequester and the shutdown don't seem such a bad thing. Maybe the lack of a higher debt ceiling on October 17th wouldn't be so bad either?

The way I see it, the worst that could happen would be that global markets could become slightly unnerved at the chance that the US would not or could not pay interest on US federal bonds, T-bill or notes. Of course, that would not happen, as the US has plenty of revenue to pay these obligations. It is the risk, perception, or fear of default that might drive global loss of confidence in these US debt instruments of which I speak. If, globally, businessmen, bankers, and governments lost confidence in US debt, then a slowdown in global business would occur until a new form of trusted, fungible collateral took its place.

All this means the only thing to fear is a gradual slowdown in economic activity. Ho hum. There will always be winners and losers. The human race always faces difficulties. So what?

For us to go down the river of time, sometimes we must go giddily over the falls. Yet the river goes on.

The refusal of the President to negotiate, and the refusal of the Republicans to give away the game, make it likely that the 17th will come and go without a deal. I expect we will all learn something very interesting, yet perhaps also quite boring, come the morning of October 18th.

Rand Paul, amongst others, have pointed out the fact that the US won't/can't default unless they make a conscious effort to default, and that markets could be reassured simply by passing a bill that guarantees that the debt is serviced under all circumstances - which given that servicing the debt is easily affordable (for the moment anyway), it is a bit surprising that it hasn't already been done.

That said, the markets reaction - and the reaction of other governments, particularly China - to a US failure to raise the debt ceiling, is unpredictable and could result in something alot worse than the (arguably more likely) trivial outcomes you're predicting, Steve - but something tells me that you'll be proved right, though, but politicians on both sides will no doubt use the opportunity to score as many political points off their opponents as they can in the meantime.

 

[Doodle]

Wait, you mean they didn't shut down the schools as part of the government shutdown!?... 🤬, I'm gonna have a lot of explaining to do.

I go to private school, and also I haven't heard anything about DC schools being closed.

 

[Danoff]

No, it won't. (Though it is only change that is the constant.) While for some, their world will end when that death benefit check doesn't come in.


It always has. For some. But this is two-pronged; eventually the politics of one country will affect another, and another, and another - and eventually the whole world - whether the world of commerce, the world of evolution, or just the world of politics itself.

Getting back to your original statement:

This is still political posturing. The world keeps turning, the weather keeps changing.
Someone lost their mother.
A kid din't go to school.

Basically, someone better make up their minds quick before the whole world shuts down . . . which is a whole other thing.

In the first paragraph then, when you talk about "the world", you're talking about all of reality despite the first paragraph being focused on the individual. In the second paragraph, when you talk about the "whole world", you're talking about individuals despite the addition of the word "whole" indicating a broader scope than your previous reference to "the world".

You can see how that's confusing I'm sure. I get what you're trying to do here, just make sure you don't lose clarity in the process. The first goal of this forum is communication.

Danoff - I cannot place myself in your shoes, adequately; it must be tough to be American right now. It must be frustrating, over-whelming, even mind-numbing to deal with the issues that the American people are dealing with right now.

Not moreso than any other time I've been alive, nor is it more difficult than being, say, Canadian right now.

To say I'm sorry for the American people would be an understatement.

Why specifically? There are few reasons I can think of that Americans deserve pity more than citizens of any other nation of the world.

Is it because our government is broke? No moreso than any other nation. Is it because our political system is dysfunctional? No moreso than any other nation. Is it because our country tramples our rights? No moreso than any other nation, and in fact, our nation does a fair amount of rights trampling in those other nations.

So feel free to explain.

 

[nk4e]

deleted

 

[DK]

Here's a piece explaining how a fundamentalist Christian ideology known as "dominionism" might play a role in the thinking of the Christian Right bloc of the Republican Party.

 

[Danoff]

Wow, that piece has little resemblance to reality.

Yes there are religious people in the republican party, yes they want to enforce biblical rules on society - no that has nothing to do with the government shutdown or obamacare.

Edit:

As hard as this may be for some to swallow, the religious sector of society used to lean mostly democrat. The socialist ideals of giving to the "less fortunate" at the expense of the "more fortunate" is consistent with the teachings of the bible. The democrats' desire to infringe property rights used to sit just fine with them. The problem was the other side of the democrats' platform (at the time) - social freedom. Many religious democrats were driven to the republican party as the majority of the democrats took up the causes of gay people and abortion.

My grandparents were such old-school democrats. Highly religious, highly disapproving of gay people, and fairly racist. But they rooted for that team when they were younger, and they stuck with them till the day they died. The christian coalition was an organized movement into the republican party (which at the time looked like libertarians with the exception of big military spending). To the republicans they brought and anti-abortion, anti-gay agenda. From the republicans they developed an anti-socialist agenda, one they didn't have at the time, and one that does not stem from biblical teachings. Some of them have since tried to warp their brains around how Christ taught capitalism, but it just isn't there.

So when I say the republicans fighting obamacare and big government spending isn't a result of Christian values, that's where I'm coming from.

Edit #2:

Religion and big government are practically made for each other. The notion that people need to be governed by a higher entity that knows best - that individuals cannot be trusted with freedom of choice - that people are inherently evil.... I'm not at all convinced that the religious right has more than a lip-service desire for small government. They just want a different kind of big government than the left.

 

[DK]

I just thought that piece was interesting.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I thought Danoff's piece was interesting. Honestly, I had never really thought about the relationship between the religious groups and the Republican party, as I see the Republicans as being all about fighting. They don't seem to have any agenda, other than hating Democrats and trying to make life better for old white men.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I thought Danoff's piece was interesting. Honestly, I had never really thought about the relationship between the religious groups and the Republican party, as I see the Republicans as being all about fighting. They don't seem to have any agenda, other than hating Democrats and trying to make life better for old white men.

You need to turn off the driveby media and do a little research.

 

[BobK]

I thought Danoff's piece was interesting. Honestly, I had never really thought about the relationship between the religious groups and the Republican party, as I see the Republicans as being all about fighting. They don't seem to have any agenda, other than hating Democrats and trying to make life better for old white men.

The last piece that Danoff cited was a week ago, and had no mention of either the Republican party or religious groups. You've also been misinformed about what the Republicans are all about.

 

[Dragonwhisky]

At the risk of showing my ignorance, can someone explain, to this old, broke down, retired electrician, how uncapping the debt ceiling can be good? In my lifetime, it's always been the lenders that determined my "debt ceiling". How does it work that any entity, government or otherwise, can operate in the red for so long and decide what "lenders" will loan them?

I wouldn't loan my government a nickle.

 

[DK]

The last piece that Danoff cited was a week ago, and had no mention of either the Republican party or religious groups. You've also been misinformed about what the Republicans are all about.

I think Beeblebrox is referring to Danoff's post.

 

[iMikeTheKing]

I thought this was a pretty good analogy.

NFSW Warning

 

[Dotini]

A breakthrough of sorts has just been achieved. Speaker Boehner has moved his caucus to a compromise: a short term debt limit increase in return for comprehensive talks on a variety of issues with the President. It appears the President will meet with a number of Republicans in the White House later today.

If October 17th ever meant anything, it surely doesn't anymore.

 

[nk4e]

I thought Danoff's piece was interesting. Honestly, I had never really thought about the relationship between the religious groups and the Republican party, as I see the Republicans as being all about fighting. They don't seem to have any agenda, other than hating Democrats and trying to make life better for old white men.

If you ever pick up a Government Class or you can probably look it up on Wikipedia what are the requirements on being Democratic or Republican:

Democrat / Progressive / Liberal: Tree-hugging, abortion-loving, gun-hating, bleeding-heart politically correct ACLU member who hates America, wants a government telescreen sticking out of every wall, enjoys killing fetuses and the elderly, and doesn't understand economics.
Republican / Conservative: Free market, religious nut, gun lover, heartless, warmongering, jingoistic, pro-surveillance, pro-second amendment NRA member who hates most of the people in America and doesn't understand economics.

but that can change depending on person and their definition.

 

[Joel]

It's almost like both parties are in the interest of restricting your liberties!

 

[nk4e]

Well, it is a stereotype. We choose the best man for the job.

 

[Dragonwhisky]

No we don't. The best man for the job doesn't want it, or need it.

 

[nk4e]

We always chose the lesser of two devils in my experience. But during Bush Jr. Administration, I did a lot of scouting from public opinion than the news.

 

[Jump_Ace]

I thought this was a pretty good analogy.

NFSW Warning

+1


Jerome

 

[A2K78]

I found it interesting that the stock market went up on the day of the shutdown. Today was also a good day for the stock market.

The Stock Market reacts everything, even a pin drop. Anyhow I find the whole issue of the government shutdown to be ridiculous.

Now if you were ask me its neither the debt ceiling or government shutdown which should be scaring americans, but rather the Fed's continuation of QE infinity...bernanke and company is practically wrecking havoc on the economy hampering any real recovery. To make things even worst, Obama selection of Yellen as the new Fed nominee should really scare americans even more:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntam...llen-is-a-blow-to-recovery-starved-americans/