Patch 4.0 is released

[bleeder]

The reasons some people have asked for the option of going with a default setup are quite varied.

Time
It takes time to tweak a car and some prefer to devote as much of the time they have to racing with others.

Knowledge of the dark arts
It's quite involved learning how to tune, where to start or knowledge to do lots of tuning though and use a car with default setup most of the time.

Level the playing field
The default setups for most cars are fairly neutral and fairly well balanced for wheel and controller users. It puts everyone on the same starting point. This is very different from the likes of GT5 which had some cars with dreadful stock setups.

I've done a lot of non tuning racing (as well as as a lot of tuned races). In my experience races are on typically a bit closer when everyone has the same setup.

Typically the best drivers in tuned cars will still win in default setup cars but they dominate slightly less.

Having said all of that I tested setting up a room earlier with the setting on and it doesn't appear to work. I was able to change the setup in the pits. (I changed suspension on 1 wheel and reduced all gear ratios). The changes definitely carried onto the track in qualifying and into the race.

Once SMS actually get it working it will be great for those that prefer that sort of racing or who like me enjoy it now and again.

I remember playing with you online a few months back in my first outing in the BAC Mono. It didn't go too well, so much so that i refused to drive the car again for ages. Then i went back and tuned it and now I think it's a great car. Really just points out that I find it hard to drive the stock setups of most cars very well. No doubt more experienced drivers can handle whatever is thrown at them but I just get frustrated.

Now an option for the host to force their own setup on the lobby might be interesting. No visual sliders, just the setup. Might be good for a laugh.

 

[JohnScoonsBeard]

I remember playing with you online a few months back in my first outing in the BAC Mono. It didn't go too well, so much so that i refused to drive the car again for ages. Then i went back and tuned it and now I think it's a great car. Really just points out that I find it hard to drive the stock setups of most cars very well. No doubt more experienced drivers can handle whatever is thrown at them but I just get frustrated.

Now an option for the host to force their own setup on the lobby might be interesting. No visual sliders, just the setup. Might be good for a laugh.

That would also be fun. When default setup rooms are actually working it would be handy to be able to filter for default setup races in the online browser.

 

[diesel97]

I think most of the people and the loudest of the people that wanted locked tuning lobbyies is because they came from GT6 or Forza and thats the way it was done their. For some reason they think if change air pressure and tweak a track bar its the same as putting nitro kit on civic. People dont like change and its even harder to change them .

I dont get it

If somebody is fast you could give them a row boat and they would beat you

 

[azidahaka]

I think most of the people and the loudest of the people that wanted locked tuning lobbyies is because they came from GT6 or Forza and thats the way it was done their. For some reason they think if change air pressure and tweak a track bar its the same as putting nitro kit on civic. People dont like change and its even harder to change them .

I dont get it

If somebody is fast you could give them a row boat and they would beat you

If you were a league or race organizer you would understand that the difference lays in how much they would get beaten.

On 99% of the tracks equally fast drivers if one races untuned and the other one with a spot on tune the difference is between 2 and 3 seconds per lap. This on same skill drivers.

So imagine an average guy, that is so-so at tuning what results would he get? In years of organizing races on gt5, gt6 and now Pcars i can tell you that the difference can get past 6 seconds.

And of those 6 seconds, 3 would be just of setup work.

Sure, the idea is that one would run with similar pace guys, but let's be honest, the driving pool in this game is MINUSCULE even compared to gt6, and lots run away from bug to never be back.

We NEED success ballast and reverse grids for online for ensure at least a few guys will stick on with the game in the next years.

we have no way to kick idiots, no way to make races closer. The current state of the game makes all possible to make drivers run away.

A working base setup restriction would bring many back to the game or allow for those that are not good at tuning to join a serie that would just require to be good at driving at a certain track instead of being a magic tuner.

 

[Spooky Wooky]

I think most of the people and the loudest of the people that wanted locked tuning lobbyies is because they came from GT6 or Forza and thats the way it was done their. For some reason they think if change air pressure and tweak a track bar its the same as putting nitro kit on civic. People dont like change and its even harder to change them .

I dont get it

If somebody is fast you could give them a row boat and they would beat you

Tuning can make the difference between a win and a loss. I can't tune and don't care if other people in the lobby tune, but it would be nice to see how good people really are when we're all on a level.

 

[bleeder]

Tuning can make the difference between a win and a loss. I can't tune and don't care if other people in the lobby tune, but it would be nice to see how good people really are when we're all on a level.

I couldn't tune before this game but now I'm addicted to it. I liken it to an RPG where I have XP points to invest in the setup screens and must decide (usually by trial and error) where to put them haha

It also made a huge difference to me when i bought my T300 where a small tweak of a slider is more noticeable than with a pad IMO.

 

[diesel97]

If you were a league or race organizer you would understand that the difference lays in how much they would get beaten.

On 99% of the tracks equally fast drivers if one races untuned and the other one with a spot on tune the difference is between 2 and 3 seconds per lap. This on same skill drivers.

So imagine an average guy, that is so-so at tuning what results would he get? In years of organizing races on gt5, gt6 and now Pcars i can tell you that the difference can get past 6 seconds.

And of those 6 seconds, 3 would be just of setup work.

Sure, the idea is that one would run with similar pace guys, but let's be honest, the driving pool in this game is MINUSCULE even compared to gt6, and lots run away from bug to never be back.

We NEED success ballast and reverse grids for online for ensure at least a few guys will stick on with the game in the next years.

we have no way to kick idiots, no way to make races closer. The current state of the game makes all possible to make drivers run away.

A working base setup restriction would bring many back to the game or allow for those that are not good at tuning to join a serie that would just require to be good at driving at a certain track instead of being a magic tuner.

Even though MOST of the cars are balanced BHP you still want ballast ? That makes no sense, it seams like a GT6 thinking

 

[Mike_grpA]

Here's some basics:

Fx: for FFB when braking/accelerating
Fy: how heavy the wheel feels in corners
Fz: for feeling bumps and curbs
Mz: how much FFB when losing traction.

If it all still feels too strong try setting the master scale around 26.

Then there's the second page with the SoP scales but it's good to know what the above sliders relate to at least. Have a search on here, there's loads of info and settings to choose from.

I set SoP scale the same as Spindle, SoP lateral the same as my front lateral (Fy), and the SoP vertical the same as front vertical (Fz). Of the front end options, I set Fy the lowest, as it pretty much just adds weight and not detail, Fx a bit higher so I can feel traction loss in accelerating and braking, Fz higher again to feel more road detail, and Mz the highest, usually by a decent amount, because it gives the feel of the front tyres gaining and losing grip due to slip angles.

I also set ffb strength at 100 on both the menu and wheel, tyre force 100, and steering gain 1.00. My deadzone removal range is .15, on a Fanatec CSR. All of my settings should work fine on the GT2 and GT3rs, however deadzone removal range may need to be higher, due to the extra damping of the heavier rim they have. Just be careful to avoid clipping.

The reasons some people have asked for the option of going with a default setup are quite varied.

Time
It takes time to tweak a car and some prefer to devote as much of the time they have to racing with others.

Knowledge of the dark arts
It's quite involved learning how to tune, where to start or knowledge to do lots of tuning though and use a car with default setup most of the time.

Level the playing field
The default setups for most cars are fairly neutral and fairly well balanced for wheel and controller users. It puts everyone on the same starting point. This is very different from the likes of GT5 which had some cars with dreadful stock setups.

I've done a lot of non tuning racing (as well as as a lot of tuned races). In my experience races are on typically a bit closer when everyone has the same setup.

Typically the best drivers in tuned cars will still win in default setup cars but they dominate slightly less.

Having said all of that I tested setting up a room earlier with the setting on and it doesn't appear to work. I was able to change the setup in the pits. (I changed suspension on 1 wheel and reduced all gear ratios). The changes definitely carried onto the track in qualifying and into the race.

Once SMS actually get it working it will be great for those that prefer that sort of racing or who like me enjoy it now and again.

As I said, forcing drivers of all tastes to use identical set ups doesn't level the playing field. In some cases it might, but if you get a field of really good drivers, they will be separated more by their preferences than their skill level. Give them all the same set up and it'll work for some, and others will have to adapt their style to the set up, which will compromise their ultimate speed.

I suppose it's fine for casual racers, but I'd never want to go into a race with forced default set ups.

If people want forced default because they're worried they don't know as much about tuning as the next guy, and the next guy might be able to exploit the tuning to be faster than them, the same is true of forced default. If you are on an identical tune to another driver, there's a very real chance that tune will suit someone else much better than you.

 

[Spooky Wooky]

I suppose it's fine for casual racers

 

[Mike_grpA]

How is that funny? Wanting something like forcing everyone to run default set ups in a racing simulator is a very casual racer thing to do. If you were serious you'd want to explore the options available.

I can see people wanting forced default so they can quickly jump into a race online without spending time doing set ups, which would be casual racers. I can't imagine people doing a serious race series wanting everyone to just run a default set up.

 

[TheElbows]

I'm 100% fine with locking tunes to default. We don't, and won't in the future, but I absolutely get the purpose. PCars has been shown to be tuned a bit toward pads/controllers, meaning there is a good 2-3 seconds a lap available in most cars. Many of us don't have the time or know-how to tune.

It's been shown numerous times in our group that the guys in tuned cars win, routinely. Some of the stock tunes on PCars are quite horrible - it's not just "a matter of taste", they just suck.

My group routinely run very consistent times when we all run the same stock tune. Maybe a second's span between top to the bottom of our group. Tuned cars it turns into 2-4 seconds difference. I'd have zero issue with someone wanting to lock tunes.

More importantly (while we don't do it) I'd like to lock cameras etc. too, but that's a totally different discussion.

 

[diesel97]

I'm 100% fine with locking tunes to default. We don't, and won't in the future, but I absolutely get the purpose. PCars has been shown to be tuned a bit toward pads/controllers, meaning there is a good 2-3 seconds a lap available in most cars. Many of us don't have the time or know-how to tune.

It's been shown numerous times in our group that the guys in tuned cars win, routinely. Some of the stock tunes on PCars are quite horrible - it's not just "a matter of taste", they just suck.

My group routinely run very consistent times when we all run the same stock tune. Maybe a second's span between top to the bottom of our group. Tuned cars it turns into 2-4 seconds difference. I'd have zero issue with someone wanting to lock tunes.

More importantly (while we don't do it) I'd like to lock cameras etc. too, but that's a totally different discussion.

I'm not sure what you are saying here, is it the controller,tune,or camera that makes you fast ? So if i race with a controller with your tune and your camera of choice i will be as fast or as slow as you ? Makes sense

 

[killerjimbag]

Here's how I see it,if your fast,your fast! Stock tunes for all,well put up or shut up!

 

[Mike_grpA]

Here's how I see it,if your fast,your fast! Stock tunes for all,well put up or shut up!

If that was true F1 teams wouldn't go to the effort to build their car to suit the specific strengths of their best driver. Different driving styles require different handling characteristics. If the car suits your style, you'll be more comfortable driving it, and not only faster over one lap, but more consistent over a race length. If you can't set the car up to better suit your driving style, you'll spend the entire race fighting with it.

 

[JohnScoonsBeard]

How is that funny? Wanting something like forcing everyone to run default set ups in a racing simulator is a very casual racer thing to do. If you were serious you'd want to explore the options available.

I can see people wanting forced default so they can quickly jump into a race online without spending time doing set ups, which would be casual racers. I can't imagine people doing a serious race series wanting everyone to just run a default set up.

All they want is the option to use default settings for some lobbies, not for the whole game. Most of my group's events will always allow full tuning. However for some of our events we run (in particular single make races) we sometimes want the car to have the same tune. This happens in the real world too. Being able to replicate that seems appropriate to me in this sim.

In real professional racing some drivers are setup tweakers like Michael Schumacher but some would just leave it to the mechanics and adapt to the tune. I don't believe that made someone like Jim Clark, who was fast no matter what the setup, a casual racer. It's the same with drivers in Project Cars. It's all about giving people the options.

 

[killerjimbag]

If that was true F1 teams wouldn't go to the effort to build their car to suit the specific strengths of their best driver. Different driving styles require different handling characteristics. If the car suits your style, you'll be more comfortable driving it, and not only faster over one lap, but more consistent over a race length. If you can't set the car up to better suit your driving style, you'll spend the entire race fighting with it.

Your not on an F1 team,your playing a video game. It's a game, if people don't like equal racing don't play in those settings..

 

[Mike_grpA]

When you say some drivers leave it to the mechanics you're right, but the mechanics don't just tell the driver to adapt to whatever the car comes out of the box with. The mechanics take the driver's feedback and will set the car up to suit them.

I don't mind the option existing in the game, the more options the better, I just made a point that it does not level the playing field as the stock tune will always suit some better than others.

Edit: I don't know how I could make it any simpler, but I'm not going to argue the point. Forcing everyone to run the same set up does not make for a level playing field. If you can't understand why that is, then just don't worry about it.

 

[killerjimbag]

When you say some drivers leave it to the mechanics you're right, but the mechanics don't just tell the driver to adapt to whatever the car comes out of the box with. The mechanics take the driver's feedback and will set the car up to suit them.

I don't mind the option existing in the game, the more options the better, I just made a point that it does not level the playing field as the stock tune will always suit some better than others.

Edit: I don't know how I could make it any simpler, but I'm not going to argue the point. Forcing everyone to run the same set up does not make for a level playing field. If you can't understand why that is, then just don't worry about it.

How can someone driving the exact same settings as me have any advantage? Same setup,same car. So everything being equal is not the same playing field, bro puff,puff,pass.

 

[Mike_grpA]

How can someone driving the exact same settings as me have any advantage? Same setup,same car. So everything being equal is not the same playing field, bro puff,puff,pass.

I explained it in very basic terms already. If you don't understand it then just move on mate. We've already taken this tangent too far.

 

[killerjimbag]

I explained it in very basic terms already. If you don't understand it then just move on mate. We've already taken this tangent too far.

Well usually I would digress. I don't know what part of equal racing doesn't seem to register. So your right,its beyond my comprehension.

 

[SGETI]

I can't imagine people doing a serious race series wanting everyone to just run a default set up.

Check out this league. SNAIL. Over 96,000 replies. Largest league on this forum. Great racing, with different levels.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/board/snail-racing-league.384/

I enjoyed SNAIL for a long time, Yet Pcars has become my sim racing game. Tuning and FFB can be a puzzle on Pcars. Yet when you get the FFB dialed in and produce a tune that cuts 2 or more seconds of your lap time. Good times.

Maybe you are not good at tuning, Try this site and hopefully you can fine a tune that suits your driving style. Or at least see how the car feels with some tweeks. Nothing to lose except seconds off your lap time.

http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/bycar

 

[Mike_grpA]

Well usually I would digress. I don't know what part of equal racing doesn't seem to register. So your right,its beyond my comprehension.

Forcing people of different styles to run one set up is not equal racing.

Let me try one more time to explain it.

My driving style is very late on the brakes, and quite aggressive, so I require a car with a very strong front end, and a looser rear I can adjust with the throttle, to get the most out of (this is of course over simplified). Now let's say me and you are very very close in skill, but you prefer to feel the car's limits in the front end, and to get on the throttle nice and early. You'll require a stronger rear end than front, the polar opposite to me.

Now if we were both able to tune the cars to suit our respective styles, we would be very close in quali, and both being comfortable during the race it would be a close race. If we were both forced to have the stock tune, which is always tuned for pad users, so has a lot of understeer built in, the stock tune would suit your style far better than mine. So I would have to adjust my driving to suit the tune, and would therefore not be comfortable for the race.

This all assumes us to both be of a similar skill level, both capable of understanding what we want out of the car, and capable of setting the car up to get it.

If there's a big spread in skill level in a room, and people don't understand how to set a car up, or don't want to spend time on doing that, then forcing one set up is fine. For more serious racers, or close racing leagues, forcing default would be worse as it will suit some and not others, and could lead to people winning just because the stock tune suits them.

So in conclusion, I'm not against there being an option for it, all my point was that it does not level the playing field like people are claiming. I believe it's mostly people used to less realistic games like GT wanting this because they don't want the hassle of learning the ins and outs of setting a car up.

 

[killerjimbag]

Forcing people of different styles to run one set up is not equal racing.

Let me try one more time to explain it.

My driving style is very late on the brakes, and quite aggressive, so I require a car with a very strong front end, and a looser rear I can adjust with the throttle, to get the most out of (this is of course over simplified). Now let's say me and you are very very close in skill, but you prefer to feel the car's limits in the front end, and to get on the throttle nice and early. You'll require a stronger rear end than front, the polar opposite to me.

Now if we were both able to tune the cars to suit our respective styles, we would be very close in quali, and both being comfortable during the race it would be a close race. If we were both forced to have the stock tune, which is always tuned for pad users, so has a lot of understeer built in, the stock tune would suit your style far better than mine. So I would have to adjust my driving to suit the tune, and would therefore not be comfortable for the race.

This all assumes us to both be of a similar skill level, both capable of understanding what we want out of the car, and capable of setting the car up to get it.

If there's a big spread in skill level in a room, and people don't understand how to set a car up, or don't want to spend time on doing that, then forcing one set up is fine. For more serious racers, or close racing leagues, forcing default would be worse as it will suit some and not others, and could lead to people winning just because the stock tune suits them.

So in conclusion, I'm not against there being an option for it, all my point was that it does not level the playing field like people are claiming. I believe it's mostly people used to less realistic games like GT wanting this because they don't want the hassle of learning the ins and outs of setting a car up.

Let me understand this. If everything is equal,meaning the same, its unfair because you brake later? Your style?
Dude its a 🤬 video game! If you don't like equal,may I repeat,lets explain it again,everyone has the same thing,then don't go into the lobby. Why you would waste your time typing this is beyond me. But anyway,I'm sure I won't see you in any lobbies.

 

[Mike_grpA]

Let me understand this. If everything is equal,meaning the same, its unfair because you brake later? Your style?
Dude its a 🤬 video game! If you don't like equal,may I repeat,lets explain it again,everyone has the same thing,then don't go into the lobby. Why you would waste your time typing this is beyond me. But anyway,I'm sure I won't see you in any lobbies.

Ok cool so you still didn't get it. Nice one. It's a sim, meaning it's realistic enough for these things to make a very big difference.

Saying that forcing everyone to run the same setup is fair and equal shows a lack of understanding of how setting up a car affects it and the driver, which is a basic part of racing. Why you would repeat yourself without even remotely understanding what I said is beyond me and no you won't see me in any lobbies that prevent people from actually using a massive part of a simulator.

your right,its beyond my comprehension.

Never a truer word has been spoken.

 

[Spooky Wooky]

It's funny because you are using "casual racer" as a kind of put down. By the way, what team was it you are paid by again?

 

[NLxAROSA]

The great thing about options is that you can choose to use them or not. I can definitely see why people would want to run a stock or fixed setup series and I can also see why people absolutely wouldn't. No problem, game can do both now, everyone happy, right?

 

[Mike_grpA]

It's funny because you are using "casual racer" as a kind of put down. By the way, what team was it you are paid by again?

At no point did I use the term "casual racer" as a put down. There's nothing wrong with doing something casually vs being more serious about it. I'm guessing you read it, determined it applied to you, and took offense. So it's you that is connecting the term "casual" with being a put down.

Do I need to be paid by a 'team' for you to take anything I write serious? What I stated about driver preferences isn't anything new. If you're done complaining now we can get this thread back on topic.

Edit: Btw I do have real life racing experience, and used to own a track car with adjustable suspension that I spent a lot of time on. I'm not new to this...

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

If you were a league or race organizer you would understand that the difference lays in how much they would get beaten.

On 99% of the tracks equally fast drivers if one races untuned and the other one with a spot on tune the difference is between 2 and 3 seconds per lap. This on same skill drivers.

So imagine an average guy, that is so-so at tuning what results would he get? In years of organizing races on gt5, gt6 and now Pcars i can tell you that the difference can get past 6 seconds.

And of those 6 seconds, 3 would be just of setup work.

Sure, the idea is that one would run with similar pace guys, but let's be honest, the driving pool in this game is MINUSCULE even compared to gt6, and lots run away from bug to never be back.

We NEED success ballast and reverse grids for online for ensure at least a few guys will stick on with the game in the next years.

we have no way to kick idiots, no way to make races closer. The current state of the game makes all possible to make drivers run away.

A working base setup restriction would bring many back to the game or allow for those that are not good at tuning to join a serie that would just require to be good at driving at a certain track instead of being a magic tuner.

In my ridox club races, we used same setup for every participant ( for each specific car ), we do often have not just one make race, but sometimes more than 2 cars available to choose and each driver must not use the same car again ( change car each race ). This gives fair play, a "better" car can only be used once, so we get to see if a driver wins because of the car or skills when he got "inferior" car. @danbojte , the organizer also implemented success ballast, where the faster driver gets heavier weight ballast, and this works to even the field as well making the race much more challenging, close and fun ( we have to plan for pit stop, fuel usage and tires )

We relied on trust as well as good will to govern the car setup, while for specs, GT6 allows the lobby host to limit HP, weight, assist, and tires. ( we run no assist club, meaning no ABS )

This is what I look forward in Pcars 2, more complete control in the online room, not just kick function, but ability to limit or restrict as many aspect of a car used ( from weight - min/max, HP, tire, assists, ) Even better if host can see each member car setup and specs.

Looks like after reading more reports, the 4.0 default setup in lobby seems do not work People can still change car setup even when restricted to stock/default.

This is what I think, the stock/default setup in lobby should still allow drivers to change car alignment and steering ratio - camber, caster and toe ( but that's it ) Something similar to real life Clio Cup regs.

 

[Mike_grpA]

The most major point of this discussion should be that two of the added features don't actually work.

This force default thing doesn't do anything as far as I can tell, and the on screen pop ups that are meant to tell you what your adjustments are doing just says "I" or "D" when you increase or decrease something. As I've already made clear, that first one doesn't affect me, but the second one certainly does. I was stoked to be able to alter my brake bias or sway bars on the fly without having to remember what they're set to.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

The most major point of this discussion should be that two of the added features don't actually work.

This force default thing doesn't do anything as far as I can tell, and the on screen pop ups that are meant to tell you what your adjustments are doing just says "I" or "D" when you increase or decrease something. As I've already made clear, that first one doesn't affect me, but the second one certainly does. I was stoked to be able to alter my brake bias or sway bars on the fly without having to remember what they're set to.

Sony might have released the patch too early

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sh...elease-Notes&p=1123880&viewfull=1#post1123880

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sh...elease-Notes&p=1123902&viewfull=1#post1123902

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?39501-After-patch-4-0-grid-is-always-randomised