- 2,632
- United Kingdom
Exactly. I like the guys leaning out and waving the flags - that's great - but there is absolutely no need for overtaking penalties.
Penalty for overtaking a stationary cars under yellows
- Thread starter EERIEISSSS
- 85 comments
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- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
"For the most part"... well, statistically, maybe, but the examples you give - and the key one of passing a car on track that has just de-ghosted after being replaced on track - are enough to say it has some pretty serious flaws!
Basically all these examples could be solved by treating more cars as incidents, especially those travelling unusually slowly. However, that would lead to yellow flags out more, and for longer, which might be detrimental to racing.
I was watching a stream the other night where someone got a penalty for passing under yellow - it was technically correct, but the yellow was shown for only about a second at most - literally just popped up the moment he overtook someone and then disappeared! Really bad timing and bad luck! There needs to be a small grace period after a yellow is shown before it will actually give a penalty.
Finally, as a slowed car accelerates, the point at which it's no longer treated as an incident should be at the end of the yellow flag zone, to avoid any penalties from overtaking it just before the yellow disappears. And/or there should be a small grace period where you don't get a penalty for passing just before a yellow flag is withdrawn.
It is needless, but I don't think the penalties should be removed altogether. They should err towards not giving penalties though, giving benefit of doubt.
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
Not sure what you're saying there... you are part of the incident in that case, and it should be acceptable to pass you. Passing is what the penalties are handed out for, currently it doesn't appear to be based on speed.
IRL single yellow flag means you have to slow enough that you would be able to avoid a further incident, which in some places might mean hardly slowing at all. Honestly I wouldn't trust code to judge that correctly if they tried to implement it.
I was responding to his claim that other drivers do not need to slow down. While I'm aware you don't actually need to slow down, you should be made aware of an incident up ahead, especially if you are currently battling for position.
You shouldn't be punished for avoiding someone else's accident (thus slowing down), which I believe is the intention of the current yellow flag rules.
- 1,344
- PA
- FredzyN2
Yes, that is the intention. To keep people from taking advantage of someone who is cautiously avoiding an incident that they weren't involved in. I hate to make up statistics, but I'm gonna go ahead and say that this penalty nails people for the wrong reason every time. I mean how often do people just slow down because there is an accident in front of them, even when they can see a clear and safe route through at speed? In real life this is normal, in GTS most people will pull a Days of Thunder every single time.
It's not a problem that needs to be solved. Accidents happen too frequently in these races to put a faulty mechanism like this in place.
Yes, that is the intention. To keep people from taking advantage of someone who is cautiously avoiding an incident that they weren't involved in. I hate to make up statistics, but I'm gonna go ahead and say that this penalty nails people for the wrong reason every time. I mean how often do people just slow down because there is an accident in front of them, even when they can see a clear and safe route through at speed? In real life this is normal, in GTS most people will pull a Days of Thunder every single time.
It's not a problem that needs to be solved. Accidents happen too frequently in these races to put a faulty mechanism like this in place.
Well, if we are making up statistics, 88.26% of other people I come across slow down and 154% are made aware of the need to slow down.
- 1,344
- PA
- FredzyN2
So you're totally OK with, for example, the leader of a race getting a 10 second penalty for passing last place as he spins off track? You think it's totally OK to put that system out into the wild while they sort those problems, as long as it means courteous drivers might get taken advantage of less?
No?
But for another example; I managed to accidentally ruin someones race because the game labelled them as being a lap down on me, if they can't sort these problems out, should the game even be out in the public/for sale?
Not sure the need to bring up such an extreme example (that I've yet to see even happen) when my thoughts and stance on yellow flags is pretty clear I think in this thread of 3 pages...
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
Ah, OK. Yes, for sure someone who slows a bit in avoiding an accident should not be counted as part of it, and a penalty would be fair for someone who took advantage and overtook them. OTOH, if they are slowed considerably, I think they should be counted as part of the incident - or rather, they are then their own incident causing a hazard. Obviously difficult to say exactly how slow the threshold should be between those two outcomes, but I imagine that most cases aren't going to be near the threshold.
(Bear in mind I'm thinking of rules that could actually be practical to implement, rather than an ideal).
- 1,344
- PA
- FredzyN2
I bring that extreme example up because it is exactly what happened to me, and I haven't played since because of it. Every single one of these "less extreme" instances perfectly justify scrapping these penalties as far as I'm concerned.
Your example of a bug in the timing doesn't help your point. That issue could be a big challenge to solve but there's no way to mitigate it right now. The yellow flag penalty decision algorithm might also be a huge challenge, but unlike the timing issue, they can simply turn off the yellow flag penalty system (not yellow flags themselves...) while they go do their homework. We survived quite easily without them, and can continue to until they find something that doesn't punish the innocent, even as an exception.
Yes, your stance is clear. You offer no contribution to defining or clarifying this problem, which I think you reluctantly agree is real but can't quite tell.
This problem, by which you mean your own unfortunate event or the OP's? The OP over-took under yellows, case closed. As for you're example, I've no idea as you've not posted footage.
But even so it's an uncommon event and an unfortunate issue affecting a few players. But I don't think that it should just be totally removed from the game. PD can't just put out a perfect yellow flag system without extensive testing, which without a test server with a high population probably wouldn't bring them enough data to fix the issues it has.
I also think that the yellow flags have helped making the racing better, the full Ring for example, features many blind sections/corners and yellow flags (along with the penalties for over-taking) have helped prevent pileups (as for example last race I did, as the leader of a group of cars I was able to back off somewhat without worrying about causing another problem behind and avoided the rejoing car ahead on the narrow Ring).
Clearly the yellow flag penalties aren't perfect, but they will be better overtime (one assumes). Just like I'm happy for the game to be out and playable, despite the issue with some cars being marked as a lap down (a bug I've encountered a number of times and reported in the proper thread).
But, to clarify;
baldgye
- 1,344
- PA
- FredzyN2
I'm pretty sure everyone in the thread is on board with that now. Everyone seems to agree that the flags are great information, including myself:
Assetto Corsa has a very handy and informative yellow flag that pops up when there is trouble ahead, and it does not cause penalties. I know you want the penalties to stay, but not so sure you realize people agree that the flags are great in themselves.
- 2,508
- Lancaster, PA
- Satomiblood
Yes, over the weekend. It actually sucked because I had moved up to 2nd or 3rd. All I remember is that I was within striking distance of overtaking the lead car, a pretty significant moment for me since I've never held pole position or won a single race in Sport Mode. Should've saved that replay.
- 1,344
- PA
- FredzyN2
- 1,078
- United States
- DGXR
- DGXR1
To the OP, I don't think you did anything wrong during that final-turn incident. I would have done the same thing as you, get through the slower cars as cleanly as possible and finish in the best position possible. You were not involved with either of those two slower cars. If any car should be penalized, *maybe* the Corvette for pushing the Porsche wide. Maybe.
In a real race, the caution would endure a lap (or two), and every driver would have plenty of time to regain their proper position in the running order, determined by the race stewards and officials. In GT Sport, the caution appears for a brief instant and then disappears just as quickly. What is anyone supposed to do with this very short response window? Let's say you slow down and allow the non-ghosted car to continue in its previous position (behind the Corvette), you do this to avoid the time penalty. But if you slow down this much, the 2 (or 3, or 4) cars behind you will gain enough steam to fly by you in a freight train of lost positions... all because two drivers had an incident ahead of you. Again, you were not involved in any way with either of the two slower cars, and you passed them both cleanly.
Ghosting... what fun is that? Every once in a while, don't you want a "big one" Talladega-like huge wreck, just to keep things real? This is a sim racer, right? Hahaha
In a real race, the caution would endure a lap (or two), and every driver would have plenty of time to regain their proper position in the running order, determined by the race stewards and officials. In GT Sport, the caution appears for a brief instant and then disappears just as quickly. What is anyone supposed to do with this very short response window? Let's say you slow down and allow the non-ghosted car to continue in its previous position (behind the Corvette), you do this to avoid the time penalty. But if you slow down this much, the 2 (or 3, or 4) cars behind you will gain enough steam to fly by you in a freight train of lost positions... all because two drivers had an incident ahead of you. Again, you were not involved in any way with either of the two slower cars, and you passed them both cleanly.
Ghosting... what fun is that? Every once in a while, don't you want a "big one" Talladega-like huge wreck, just to keep things real? This is a sim racer, right? Hahaha
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What he meant is that the guy he overtook (car on the right) virtually stopped, the guy causing the yellow was ghosted to the left. If he had slowed enough to not pass the car on the right he would have been passed by everyone behind, who all got lucky because the yellow cleared before they got there.
Its silly, as if 10 drivers behind him are gonna stop because of the yellow flag.... i bet most of them wouldnt even be penalised if they passed both the "yellow driver" and eeriee.
The notification should be there but theres no reason to slow down just because there is someone who crashed. lets be realistic, most people online are not pro drivers, in a game people crash all the time. its stupid that you get a penalty if ur the unlucky one. sometimes it does not affect you, sometimes you get silly penalty. im my opinion its not only stupid but also inconsistent.
The notification should be there but theres no reason to slow down just because there is someone who crashed. lets be realistic, most people online are not pro drivers, in a game people crash all the time. its stupid that you get a penalty if ur the unlucky one. sometimes it does not affect you, sometimes you get silly penalty. im my opinion its not only stupid but also inconsistent.
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