- 108
- Italy
- SNAKEMAIO
ANSWERS:
1. Because lot of dirty drivers would brake only to give penalties to followers
2. Yes, U're right, it's a shame, but there's no way to have a perfect algorithm on that
3. I think he had a worst panalty than yours
PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!
- Thread starter Gareth davies
- 6,543 comments
- 425,388 views
ANSWERS:
1. Because lot of dirty drivers would brake only to give penalties to followers
2. Yes, U're right, it's a shame, but there's no way to have a perfect algorithm on that
3. I think he had a worst panalty than yours
- 327
Same thing happened to me and I can assure you that in that case it's always the driver who is behind that gets the Kaz stick to the face. The algorithm can't distinguish between a situation like that and a divebomb.
All of this wouldn't be much of a problem if small mistakes like that didn't affect what was done in ALL of the previous races. As I said, this could be dealt with by simply taking into account SR variance. It's a very easy fix to a problem that is making the game unenjoyable.
- 1,521
- Seixal
- zefthebestofcour
No need to be perfec
Perfection is the main enemy to a correct implementation. of any thing... so... But doin nothing when something does nt work. is even worse...!!!´
So this means .. it does nt need to be perfect... but it at least it would work fine more then 60 % of situations... it would be so so very good!!!! (And I think that we re standing now in less then 10% of success on this so unjust situations NOT Happening!!!)
Perfection is the main enemy to a correct implementation. of any thing... so... But doin nothing when something does nt work. is even worse...!!!´
So this means .. it does nt need to be perfect... but it at least it would work fine more then 60 % of situations... it would be so so very good!!!! (And I think that we re standing now in less then 10% of success on this so unjust situations NOT Happening!!!)
- 108
- Italy
- SNAKEMAIO
May be you're right but... it's not always the best...
Look at me: i started playing GT in september 2017 after (may be 20?!?!) years from my last GT playing (Playstation #1 - first Granturismo).
I started to have fun, i drove with controller, like i used to do 20 years ago, then 2 things happened: i was totally involved in Sport Mode... and... i decided not to play only to have fun but also to be more competitive...
So i bought a weel, and i started to drive clean trying to improve my DR and my technical skills... (if you look at my stats on Kudos it's all clear about this)
With your system, probly now i was still searching to have a decent, clean race at all...
I don't know what's the percentage...
In my experience i think they're trying to really give us the most fair experience... but.. it's a game... algorythms lead everything ad as you said it could not be perfect..
I'm the first that sometimes is sad and frustrated after some race: i lost about 15000 DR points after a wretched race in Monza during FIA Nations Preseason... I really don't know how it was possible to me... and surely i can say to you i did not drive like a divebomb during that race but... i did involuntary mistakes that made me bump 2 cars for 20 seconds penalty and i did'nt want to do that (in one of them i bumped a car ghosting in the right moment it was unghosting)...
I was frustrated to go from A+/S to A/B but... there were not way for the game to know that it was not my intention to be dirty (and i could pay more attention to avoid mistakes i made, having panalties)...
So... surely it could be better.. evrything and everyone of us could be... but... i think they are trying to improve about that...
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- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
The problem with doing something that isn't perfect is that it is often exploitable, like brake-checking for rear-ending, turning back in on someone after going wide, etc, etc, etc. In most cases it is better to do nothing... well not nothing, just no time penalty, because there is also SR which ought to measure a player's behaviour statistically.
About the only clear case I can think of for a penalty is when someone approaches a corner with far too much speed to make it round and hits someone. Even for that seemingly obvious case, it would have to also know that that person hadn't just been hit from behind causing the overspeed, and it would have to know a maximum corner speed for every car on every corner.
There was a good explanation of the difficulties re. detecting rear-ending on Minorating (RIP
), wayback has it here but no pictures. Some of the detail may apply only to AC, but the general reasons for only using a statistical approach (in this game, SR) apply universally.
- 272
- Netherlands
- F1FOUAD
If a driver gets too many 10sec+ time penalty's in a short period of time he should be banned for Sportmode by blocking the users PS4 Mac address.
A more clear race etiquette allot don't understand what the difference is between blocking and defending.
They should start banning people allot quicker in Sportmode deliberate crashes should be blackflaged.
A more clear race etiquette allot don't understand what the difference is between blocking and defending.
They should start banning people allot quicker in Sportmode deliberate crashes should be blackflaged.
- 3,512
- Theresa, Wisconsin
Something is wrong when I go into L1 T1 at Nurb GP track in 2nd place and the 9th place car forgets to brake and hits every car behind me including me and I end up with a 5 second penalty for hitting the wall. If PD cant distinguish who is at fault there instead of handing out penalties based on SR they are idiots.
- 1,521
- Seixal
- zefthebestofcour
Very good point fastone371
, the whole penalty system need a total revamp and PD needs to bring in Ghosting on Collisions and that is the only way to solve this.
TT92
Premium
- 1,642
- WA
- TT__777
Here I am being the lone voice in the wilderness (again). In a corner (which the game already clearly identifies) after the first contact all other resulting contacts should not incur penalties. Also, contacts in a designated braking area (that the game also already identifies) then the car behind should get a penalty, NOT the innocent car in front.
This would be just the start of cleaning this mess up. Some tinkering would be needed like calculating overlap or maybe extending a universal braking area to the max for the class of car say +10% BUT it is achievable with a little bit of effort on PD's part.
Another good one would be a car re-entering the track (that the game also already clearly identifies) causing contact within say a 5 second window would also receive a (harsh?) penalty and NOT the innocent car they made contact with. Further to this, a car that makes contact with a barrier should insatiably ghost so as to not impinge on the following cars or at very least not give them a penalty.
Just maybe someone from PD will actually read some of these comments.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Well I'm at a loss, can't make sense of it at all anymore. One of my races on Brand's today had 3 contacts with the same driver.
First, I'm on on the inside in the lead, he hits me from the outside.
I get SR Down and a penalty
Second, ok I'll stay on the outside then, he dive bump passes me
I get SR Down and a penalty
Third, he went way wide yet dives back to the inside
Here I expected a penalty as I hit him from behind ish, yet the game tells me he got a penalty there.
I spun in the last one, lost my penalty time, caught up with him again but didn't try to pass him anymore, enough damage. And since he had a big flashing penalty sign I would pass him at the finish anyway, not. He had no red dot, never slowed down, blue S, I dropped to SR.A -21 SR for that race.
The only explanation I can come up with, he was DR.D (probably alt account, 2nd day, 9th race) Always give way to lower level drivers...
First, I'm on on the inside in the lead, he hits me from the outside.
I get SR Down and a penalty
Second, ok I'll stay on the outside then, he dive bump passes me
I get SR Down and a penalty
Third, he went way wide yet dives back to the inside
Here I expected a penalty as I hit him from behind ish, yet the game tells me he got a penalty there.
I spun in the last one, lost my penalty time, caught up with him again but didn't try to pass him anymore, enough damage. And since he had a big flashing penalty sign I would pass him at the finish anyway, not. He had no red dot, never slowed down, blue S, I dropped to SR.A -21 SR for that race.
The only explanation I can come up with, he was DR.D (probably alt account, 2nd day, 9th race) Always give way to lower level drivers...
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Not done yet, this corner here. How much space does the game want me to give the other driver, I can't go further to the right!
I'm slowing down to get out of the way then get used by the next kart, SR Down plus penalty for me.
However this guy positioning his kart against my rear wheel and bumping me twice pushing me out, perfectly fine
No penalty for him, nothing.
Here I slow down for the kart in front, get bump passed as result
SR Down plus penalty for me
Those were all my incidents on Brand's today, 100% faulty penalty system. I got a few other penalties from avoiding people and ending up in the grass, slowing way down, losing more positions then simply letting them hit me, and still get a 'shortcut' penalty. (which is often higher than the time penalties for contact in DR.B)
As a bonus, the daily C infamous T1. The car in front of me punts the car in front of him, slows down instantly. I go wide to avoid, pat myself on the back for catching it in time and not become part of a chain reaction.
The game logic thinks otherwise. SR Down, 3 sec penalty. A yellow flag from a previous screw up was still active, meaning I should have crashed into him instead...
I'm slowing down to get out of the way then get used by the next kart, SR Down plus penalty for me.
However this guy positioning his kart against my rear wheel and bumping me twice pushing me out, perfectly fine
No penalty for him, nothing.
Here I slow down for the kart in front, get bump passed as result
SR Down plus penalty for me
Those were all my incidents on Brand's today, 100% faulty penalty system. I got a few other penalties from avoiding people and ending up in the grass, slowing way down, losing more positions then simply letting them hit me, and still get a 'shortcut' penalty. (which is often higher than the time penalties for contact in DR.B)
As a bonus, the daily C infamous T1. The car in front of me punts the car in front of him, slows down instantly. I go wide to avoid, pat myself on the back for catching it in time and not become part of a chain reaction.
The game logic thinks otherwise. SR Down, 3 sec penalty. A yellow flag from a previous screw up was still active, meaning I should have crashed into him instead...
- 3,954
- Laguna
- Alpha_Cipher1
Here's why this will never work, courtesy of @Outspacer
https://web.archive.org/web/20171129201508/http://www.minorating.com/Diary_1
Let me quote something this site says:
It's okay to complain about the penalty system; it's pretty bad and I complain about it as well. But the thing is, our ideas are 99% not as good as the developers' ideas. Let them do the work
- 3,177
- St helens, merseyside, England.
- crazybuttocks198
- Crazybuttocks19
I think the penalty system is:
Dreadful
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
The trouble is that PD aren't coming up with anything better than naive ideas, and the way penalties seem designed to punish rather than restore order in a race appears to be driven by user demands. For SR calcs, it's like they either didn't look at what other people had done in the past, or were determined not to take any of the good ideas! Engineers should hope to implement the simplest possible systems, but PD's are looking rather ornamental at this point.
TT92
Premium
- 1,642
- WA
- TT__777
Thanks for the link. You do realise it is discussing Assetto Corsa? Do you want me to go through each of his points and counter it with why my suggestion will work? I would prefer not to spend to time doing but people simply rejecting my ideas simply because they can't be right because I am not a coder is just mere gainsaying.
Ok here's one for you. My idea is that the inocent car in front is not penalised for some idiot running into the back of him in a braking area. So please explain how this radical idea of mine is not better than the PD's current idea about slamming the innocent party with a race wrecking penalty and SR drop?
I would suspect that most of this group's readesr just may agree that my idea is better than the "99% correct" PD one ;-)
- 3,954
- Laguna
- Alpha_Cipher1
Yes I'd like you to know why your reasoning will stand. It's Assetto Corsa, but you can draw parallelisms with Minorinating's points system and SR. Penalty-implementation wise you can pretty much take everything he said and put it to GTS.
I ran my mouth here. I'm wrong
You can find why this is wrong in the article I reposted above
- 3,177
- St helens, merseyside, England.
- crazybuttocks198
- Crazybuttocks19
People who dislike GTS and their penalties who won't shut up about it
- 1,521
- Seixal
- zefthebestofcour
You re jokin
.. of course you r joking!!! You ve got to be!!!
Only ideas PD cares about are those that will raise his money account in the bank!!
.. of course you r joking!!! You ve got to be!!!
Only ideas PD cares about are those that will raise his money account in the bank!!
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
As I said when I posted the link, some of the details are specific to AC. Like the precise data that is available to plugins/servers. But most of the principles are universal - especially 'what defines a corner?' and 'what defines a braking zone?', but also issues of timing and synchronisation in a multiplayer environment. What a game does is fake it, every time. It's part of the definition of being 'not reality'. Corner cuts? Simply areas that are flagged as producing a penalty. Braking markers? Placed by hand and in the same place regardless of car. There is always some level of trickery.
Sadly many do agree that your idea is better, and sure, it might work in the simplest of cases - only two cars near to each other, lead car brakes at the braking marker, on the racing line. And who doesn't want to see rammers punished while innocents go free?! But a system has to cope with a lot more cases than that. What if the lead car is on a defensive line and brakes earlier? What if the lead car has just swerved over in front of the following car? What if there's another car in front, or even a whole gaggle of cars, slowing the lead car and causing him to brake early? A system would have to take the entire context into account if is to have any hope of dishing out a penalty correctly. Even if it did, it would have to have some way to assess its own competence - any doubt about its judgement of any act being intentional or reckless should result in no penalty being handed out. We are a long way from that being viable to implement.
The same isn't true of SR, since it is statistical - it actually shouldn't matter much if SR is gained/lost unjustly at times as long as it's mostly correct over the longer term. Well, that's how it should be, but isn't right now because SR gains and losses are way too large per race.
Your 'problem', as such, is that you want PD to punish wreckers each and every time they cause an incident. But PD can't code the judgement so the innocent get punished as well. Oops! I say let it go, and instead push PD to fix the SR calcs so that wreckers don't retain SR S, innocents do, and then the penalty system doesn't need to act on so many incidents and can be toned down.
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- 3,954
- Laguna
- Alpha_Cipher1
Yeah that statement was a regret
The article is a pretty good read however; I encourage you to read it regardless whether you agree with the penalty system or not
- 745
- Antarctica
Not done yet, this corner here. How much space does the game want me to give the other driver, I can't go further to the right!
I'm slowing down to get out of the way then get used by the next kart, SR Down plus penalty for me.
However this guy positioning his kart against my rear wheel and bumping me twice pushing me out, perfectly fine
No penalty for him, nothing.
Here I slow down for the kart in front, get bump passed as result
SR Down plus penalty for me
Those were all my incidents on Brand's today, 100% faulty penalty system. I got a few other penalties from avoiding people and ending up in the grass, slowing way down, losing more positions then simply letting them hit me, and still get a 'shortcut' penalty. (which is often higher than the time penalties for contact in DR.B)
As a bonus, the daily C infamous T1. The car in front of me punts the car in front of him, slows down instantly. I go wide to avoid, pat myself on the back for catching it in time and not become part of a chain reaction.
The game logic thinks otherwise. SR Down, 3 sec penalty. A yellow flag from a previous screw up was still active, meaning I should have crashed into him instead...
The first one seems the only one that might be legitimate - maybe. The 2nd and 3rd ones I couldn't help but laugh. Sorry. Its just so ridiculous its funny. It'll be some fancy programming that sorts those kind of incidents out perfectly.
On a lighter note I especially liked the 2nd one where #12 almost seems like they had enough already so they turn hard - like perpendicular - off the track all by themselves. Gets funnier everytime.
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
- 745
- Antarctica
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
Looks like P13 is the one that Sven is avoiding, who then shoots forward and starts going normal pace next to P12. P12's game would've been predicting motion for some of that time, so if P13 was pointing towards him at any point it could maybe think he'd been hit.
- 3,250
- Canada
Last night on ring GP Group 3, i swear i had three incidents that were my fault, accidents but my fault, no penalty and big gains in SR 
- 66
- United Kingdom
Why is a time penalty and Sr down handed out for having an accident all by yourself? A few times I've spun out, hit a barrier but no other cars and received a penalty.
