Penalty Zones Coming to GT Sport's FIA and Daily Races

[TeddyWestside]

Hi everybody.

First post (occasional lurker for a long time though) and I'm afraid it's a complaint!

Wow, have they ever screwed up the penalty system now!

Dragon Trail FIA race:

3 times, I was hit from behind (and hard) under braking into the tighter corners, and all 3 times I got the penalty whilst the offender got away scot-free! Naturally, they passed me as I took my penalties (3, 5 and 3 seconds). On the 3rd occasion, it was the final straw and I hit the 3rd offender the same as they'd done to me, to see what the result would be. Surprise, surprise, I got the penalty and they got nothing.
(No, I'm not in the habit of 'revenge hits' but a) there was no need for any of them to have hit me and b) it was an experiment (we were both well out of contention by this point anyway).

It seems like the penalty system takes one step forward then 2 steps back every 2 times it's changed.

I also agree with the idea of pit penalties. The simple way to avoid them being disproportionately heavy would be for you to cross the line into the pits but then 'respawn' at the exit of the pits after the appropriate amount of time. So you would be further back in terms of track position, as you should be, but out of the way of other cars. In a case where multiple cars serve their pit penalty together, the cars would all ghost on exiting the pit lane to avoid colliding with each other. Surely that could work, and avoid PD clumsily requesting racers to move off the racing line (especially as many people don't seem to know where or what the racing line is anyway!).

(For the record, I'm currently CA, having just dropped from CS, and have been as high as AA I believe - though it seems so long ago!! So I'm most definitely not a dirty racer, having been the victim mainly of first corner ramming and sometimes trying a bit too cheeky a move on the inside of corners).

 

[stpatty]

FIA qualifying at Dragon Trail Gardens:

Out lap, I get a penalty for cutting one of the kerbs at the chicane right before the penalty zone. It doesn't serve at this point. It instead rolls over to the next lap, and my qualifying is partly ruined as a result.

While this process is fine in theory, it doesn't work as punishment for gaining an advantage when you're only racing against yourself. Either set up a second zone near the end of the lap in qualifying or keep the original system there.

 

[Matty28]

Well penalties got a whole lot more brutal then. 2.6 seconds used to be like 1.5 seconds and now it's 4 seconds. I don't really get the need for slamming on the brakes to make the penalty more severe than it says it is. 4 seconds for gaining ~1 tenth seems like overkill to me. It should be 1 second overall (so given that it slams on the brakes 0.2s) imo.



Also it gave me pretty much no time to lift off like it said it would in the update announcement. And given that the while lines are not actually the track limits you don't even know if you've cut the corner until you get the penalty.

 

[GTP_TO Blue]

If you pause your video at the incident, you do actually have all 4 wheels the wrong side of the white line; you did cut the corner and were off track.

 

[ScottPuss20]

IMHO, none of this matters. IRL penalties are served in pits, by subtraction at the end, and by forcing the offender into returning position. And it's this last one that, firstly, made GT5/6 into the best online clean community on consoles, and b) was a basic rule in pretty much all league racing. It's a shame that PD didn't spend more time in WRS and SNAIL and figure out what is was that created that degree of race etiquette.

Remove ANY advantage for contact, and you would be utterly amazed how clean the vast majority of the player base can be. Force a car off and pass, return position. Ram from behind and pass, return the position. But rub, ram, whatever and DON'T gain position, no penalty.

Works like a charm!

How can you be so sure that the player base will do this? I don't think you can speak for everyone.

 

[kjeldsen]

*EDIT*

 

[Haitauer]

Hi everybody.

First post (occasional lurker for a long time though) and I'm afraid it's a complaint!

Wow, have they ever screwed up the penalty system now!

Dragon Trail FIA race:

3 times, I was hit from behind (and hard) under braking into the tighter corners, and all 3 times I got the penalty whilst the offender got away scot-free! Naturally, they passed me as I took my penalties (3, 5 and 3 seconds). On the 3rd occasion, it was the final straw and I hit the 3rd offender the same as they'd done to me, to see what the result would be. Surprise, surprise, I got the penalty and they got nothing.
(No, I'm not in the habit of 'revenge hits' but a) there was no need for any of them to have hit me and b) it was an experiment (we were both well out of contention by this point anyway).

It seems like the penalty system takes one step forward then 2 steps back every 2 times it's changed.

I also agree with the idea of pit penalties. The simple way to avoid them being disproportionately heavy would be for you to cross the line into the pits but then 'respawn' at the exit of the pits after the appropriate amount of time. So you would be further back in terms of track position, as you should be, but out of the way of other cars. In a case where multiple cars serve their pit penalty together, the cars would all ghost on exiting the pit lane to avoid colliding with each other. Surely that could work, and avoid PD clumsily requesting racers to move off the racing line (especially as many people don't seem to know where or what the racing line is anyway!).

(For the record, I'm currently CA, having just dropped from CS, and have been as high as AA I believe - though it seems so long ago!! So I'm most definitely not a dirty racer, having been the victim mainly of first corner ramming and sometimes trying a bit too cheeky a move on the inside of corners).

Braking even slightly early and car behind slamming to you while he is trying to brake counts as brake checking in GTS. You will get the penalty. I get this penalty all too often while trying to get softer line for better exit..

 

[Achika_Kuonji]

What will happen if track limit sets default to "Championship" on this penalty zone system?

 

[Haitauer]

What will happen if track limit sets default to "Championship" on this penalty zone system?

I hope they would use the tightest tracklimits always in sportmode. To prevent the track limit exploit -competitions. 2 wheels on track (not on curb) always..

 

[T_revisio]

5 second race ending penalty in Nations race, caused 100% by the laggy connection of another driver. Game over immediately, due to new penalty zones. At least get the penalty decisions right, before making the punishment more draconian!

I have been predicting this ridiculous outcome since the new penalty zone announcement, only to be hounded by punishment thirsty keyboard warriors for daring to criticise it in advance.

If politicians increased the penalty for speeding to 3 years in prison, they had better be damn sure that the equipment measuring the speed of the defendant's car is more accurate than when the penalty was a small fine.

#facepalm

 

[05XR8]

Worked flawlessly, in my Mnaufacturers race. During Qualy, A player tried to go slow at a different part of track. Nope. gotta shake that off in the Penalty Zone.

During the race, the cars just ghost. Other players had plenty time to move over and penalty servers did move out the way. Good job, PD.

 

[T_revisio]

Can someone please logically and unemotionally explain to me how, without seeng the incident and deciding if it was penalty worthy or not, in the 1st place, anyone can make a ”well done PD - new penalty zones are perfect” conclusion ? It’s only good if the penalty decision is correct. Lag causes the wrong penalty decisions to be made. Therefore, it cannot always be good, can it?

 

[Hasnain282]

Can someone please logically and unemotionally explain to me how, without seeng the incident and deciding if it was penalty worthy or not, in the 1st place, anyone can make a ”well done PD - new penalty zones are perfect” conclusion ? It’s only good if the penalty decision is correct. Lag causes the wrong penalty decisions to be made. Therefore, it cannot always be good, can it?

Well that would be an issue with the penalty system rather than the penalty zones themselves.

One issue I had with the penalty zone though that was quite noticable thanks to the long straight at Fuji, if you had a 3s penalty it would end up being the equivalent of a 5s time loss down the straight thanks to having to slow down and getting back upto speed again. This probably isn't an issue at all tracks but you'd want the time loss from the penalty to at least be similar to the amount of penalty time you've been given

 

[T_revisio]

Well that would be an issue with the penalty system rather than the penalty zones themselves.

One issue I had with the penalty zone though that was quite noticable thanks to the long straight at Fuji, if you had a 3s penalty it would end up being the equivalent of a 5s time loss down the straight thanks to having to slow down and getting back upto speed again. This probably isn't an issue at all tracks but you'd want the time loss from the penalty to at least be similar to the amount of penalty time you've been given

Yes, that is my point, the new penalty zones have made the penalty time loss harsher, due to having to slow at the start of a long straight, yet no improvement had been made to the penalty decision system itself,

I guess this makes the part of the playerbase that wants harsher penalties happy, yet it also leaves more innocent drivers being harshly punished. Conceptually, I see this argument similar to the arguments for and against capital punishment...

 

[ASH32]

Yes zones are needed to stop people serving penalties in stupid areas, often intentionally to spoil other people's races as well. Also to stop the "I'm faster so have a right to barge past" mob, especially in the first corner of the first lap. Before they then had a whole race to get rid of the penalty they got due to their actions, so they often benefited from the dirty move, now with a zone they'll lose places if they try this stuff.

Of course it's going to be a bigger frustration when you get a unjust penalty and lose a lot of places, which is why I'd prefer the zones only being for penalties over either 3 or 5 seconds but that's a failure with the penalty system rather than the zones and not an easy fix. The one thing they could do now though is reduce some penalty lengths, especially corner cutting ones, as the penalty zone system has made them harsher anyway.

 

[simsimsheree]

I think we've all pretty much come to the conclusion that real world racing rules are impossible to apply in games. So, what's the alternative? Obviously, PD's implementation is a work in 'progress' (and how much progress has been made after a year of tryouts is a debatable point), and it is only too apparent that the game is totally incapable of distinguishing fault from the trailing car or fault from the leading car.

What's left?

I submit, place the onus ENTIRELY on the trailing car. Contact from the rear is ALWAYS the trailing car's fault, with the sole exception of brake checking on straights (easy enough to detect when the AI already know where to brake and where not to). It is the responsibility of the trailing car to pass cleanly.

How would this be better?

Because, just like IRL, a faster driver should know how to execute over/under's, be better getting on the power coming off the corners, be more able to execute off-line (late apex/early apex) turns to gain a tactical advantage over the less skilled driver. But, as there seems to be no way for the current generation of computing to apply real world fault interpretation, an easy thing to detect is contact from the rear.

Basically, this one rule was all it took to get clean lobby racing in GT5/6. Players were expected to serve the penalty themselves, but an automated system like GTS's would serve fine. But I put to you, change the contact rules so that ONLY the trailing car is penalized, you will see far less ramming and diving, and you will see the majority of the player base realize that ramming isn't their only option.

Faster drivers will easily pass slower drivers by tactical means rather than ramming their way through, slower drivers will have to learn these same skills or be penalized out of the race. Drivers that attempt to slow on the line in corners will quickly find themselves anticipated and alternate lines chosen by the trailing car.

Look, I saw it happen. The evolution of clean racing in early GT5P and GT5 rooms showed that complex racing rules based on peer review were not workable unless in the most tightly hosted and stewarded rooms. We needed a simpler set of rules that were easily comprehended and adhered to, and shifting the responsibility of a clean pass entirely to the trailing car succeeded. It is obviously detectable whether contact comes from a trailing car. Place the penalty there alone, and, while not being exactly the same as real racing, would achieve the same result.

This, at least, is a penalty system that has already been tried and works!

 

[rono_thomas]

I submit, place the onus ENTIRELY on the trailing car. Contact from the rear is ALWAYS the trailing car's fault, with the sole exception of brake checking on straights (easy enough to detect when the AI already know where to brake and where not to). It is the responsibility of the trailing car to pass cleanly.

Wouldn’t work, everytime you try to overtake me I’ll apply the anchors and initiate contact. I get away scott free, you end up with a penalty.

Both racers have to have a reason to avoid contact, thats how it works.

 

[05XR8]

Wouldn’t work, everytime you try to overtake me I’ll apply the anchors and initiate contact. I get away scott free, you end up with a penalty.

Both racers have to have a reason to avoid contact, thats how it works.

Like I said, in the Manufacturers Cup, I WAS on pole. Got hit inside of T1. Spun out and instead of joining right back into the train of cars, I stayed offline until the last car passed. On my journey back through the field, I saw the penalty zone in action. The penalty zone DID work. The last sentence in the above quote, pretty much says it all.

 

[simsimsheree]

Wouldn’t work, everytime you try to overtake me I’ll apply the anchors and initiate contact. I get away scott free, you end up with a penalty.

Both racers have to have a reason to avoid contact, thats how it works.

If PD have the chops to enforce slow zones, they have the chops to detect braking on straights. And, after ONE attempt to brake check me into a corner, I'll be diving to the outside, braking early, and passing you on exit as you attempt to brake check a car no longer there!

How do YOU pass cars without contact? It doesn't sound like you know how to if you think that brake checking the car behind will work all the time.

 

[rono_thomas]

How do YOU pass cars without contact? It doesn't sound like you know how to if you think that brake checking the car behind will work all the time.

put rono_thomas into KP that will answer your question .

Also I wouldn’t be doing the passing in the hypothetical I gave you with your so called fix everything in one improvement.

All I would have to be is an erratic defender and most would be too scared to pass in fear of penalties.

There should be no advantages given to either attacker or defender, and like I said both racers need a reason to race clean.

(Please do your best to understand that my hypothetical’s are in no way a representation of the way I drive, a simple piece of research on your part would have revealed that for you)

 

[simsimsheree]

I already said positional detection in corners would be beyond system detection. But braking on a straight outside the brake zone should be easily detectable (and penalized on the leading car with no penalty for the trailing car).

Maybe you are being too literal, obviously brake checking on straights would need detection and penalizing the leading car, but too closely following a leading car through a turn without knowing in detail what their driving tendencies are is a recipe for a shunt in the first place. You would find it VERY hard to brake check me after the first time you did it, and even harder to slow me down from it because I wouldn't be on your line until I trusted you.

I am actually proved right by your KP score. I find it impossible to believe that you've never encountered someone brake checking and have not worked out how to avoid it! Or maybe I'm wrong. You've never attempted to avoid it, and just left it to the game to penalize you both! Maybe that's why you are so against the idea!

Tell me, how did you do it in GT6? No penalties at all. I guess you lost every race because you couldn't deal with a brake checker?!

 

[rono_thomas]

I already said positional detection in corners would be beyond system detection. But braking on a straight outside the brake zone should be easily detectable (and penalized on the leading car with no penalty for the trailing car).

Maybe you are being too literal, obviously brake checking on straights would need detection and penalizing the leading car, but too closely following a leading car through a turn without knowing in detail what their driving tendencies are is a recipe for a shunt in the first place. You would find it VERY hard to brake check me after the first time you did it, and even harder to slow me down from it because I wouldn't be on your line until I trusted you.

I am actually proved right by your KP score. I find it impossible to believe that you've never encountered someone brake checking and have not worked out how to avoid it! Or maybe I'm wrong. You've never attempted to avoid it, and just left it to the game to penalize you both! Maybe that's why you are so against the idea!

Tell me, how did you do it in GT6? No penalties at all. I guess you lost every race because you couldn't deal with a brake checker?!

What have you been smoking Trevor?

You did check my KP scores right?

 

[simsimsheree]

Explain them, if brake checking is so easy and impossible to circumvent? Did you ever play GT5/6?

The hardest thing I have believing is that you seem so content with a system that is so utterly flawed. I guess you have learned to game them (your contention that constant brake checking would be tried indicates you may have tried it and in no penalty rooms, it actually works, which doesn't say much for your opponents' skills!), but I'm sorry - A game with such a POS penalty system doesn't deserve to be played by anyone that loves the actual sport.

All I'm trying to do is discuss options outside the box, ways of penalty imposition and fault detection that have actually worked in the past. One thing I know for sure is, in GT5/6 in Clean rooms, placing the onus COMPLETELY on the trailing car except for brake checking on straights worked very well indeed. We went from a community that were as bad as Sport Mode is now to a community that could pull off clean passes without any contact at all. And the ONE thing that achieved that was the rule that ALL contact that results in a pass is penalized by returning the position.

Honestly, I could care less about your KP stats. I care more about whether you ever played in clean rooms in GT5/6 or do League (SNAIL etc.) racing now. Because that's the last place that had clean racing... 'No fault' racing is an abomination, and doesn't reflect the sport.

 

[rono_thomas]

Explain them

Explain what?

Did you ever play GT5/6?

Yes.

The hardest thing I have believing is that you seem so content with a system that is so utterly flawed.

Assumption.

your contention that constant brake checking would be tried indicates you may have tried it and in no penalty rooms, it actually works, which doesn't say much for your opponents' skills!), but I'm sorry - A game with such a POS penalty system doesn't deserve to be played by anyone that loves the actual sport.

Ahh ad hominem Fallacy.

All I'm trying to do is discuss options outside the box, ways of penalty imposition and fault detection that have actually worked in the past. One thing I know for sure is, in GT5/6 in Clean rooms, placing the onus COMPLETELY on the trailing car except for brake checking on straights worked very well indeed. We went from a community that were as bad as Sport Mode is now to a community that could pull off clean passes without any contact at all. And the ONE thing that achieved that was the rule that ALL contact that results in a pass is penalized by returning the position.

All I did was point out that your solution would not work - something you have taken very personally.

Snail is stewarded by real people. Apples with apples.

Honestly, I could care less about your KP stats. I care more about whether you ever played in clean rooms in GT5/6 or do League (SNAIL etc.) racing now. Because that's the last place that had clean racing... 'No fault' racing is an abomination, and doesn't reflect the sport.

Yes and raced many snail racers - ask them if you like how this is relevant in any way to sport mode is beyond me.

You care less about my KP stats and yet continuously call me a cheat.

Press reply so I at least know your replying to me.

 

[T_revisio]

Does Donald Trump play gt sport ? Going by the methods employed in the above argument, I think that there is evidence to suggest he does

 

[VFOURMAX1]

One issue I had with the penalty zone though that was quite noticable thanks to the long straight at Fuji, if you had a 3s penalty it would end up being the equivalent of a 5s time loss down the straight thanks to having to slow down and getting back upto speed again. This probably isn't an issue at all tracks but you'd want the time loss from the penalty to at least be similar to the amount of penalty time you've been given

As I have said in the past the only way a penalty system will work is if the punishment of the infraction way outweighs the gain from the offense.

Due to what you have written from your penalty and ensuing experience with the penalty enforcement zone chosen to dispatch of such penalty at the Fuji circuit.
I would say at that track in the future you will very possibly go above and beyond to avoid an infraction that would result in a penalty whether by contact or corner cutting as the cost for serving even a very small penalty which is amplified by the additional time loss of where and how such penalty much be served.

That is an indication of a positive step in the right direction for cleaner racing in the future and less exploiting of the track limits and cutting corners as the penalty phase way outweighs the gain that resulted in accruing the penalty.

Even the amount of undeserved penalties "should" decrease as a result as all drivers change their mindset as to the possible damage incurring a penalty will do to track and finish positions within a race.

So for a long term solution perhaps the new penalty zone will work after all. Still early yet but I like what I see so far.
Fewer penalties throughout a race is a positive for all drivers as the rule infractions are fewer and less common.

 

[RacingFan1]

I had some lobby races these past days and in some tracks you simply could not remove the penalty, and in some tracks it was the same as always.... The penalty zones dont seem to be there in lobbies. Anyone else? Any solution?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I had some lobby races these past days and in some tracks you simply could not remove the penalty, and in some tracks it was the same as always.... The penalty zones dont seem to be there in lobbies. Anyone else? Any solution?

Actually the penalty zones at the current time will only be utilized in the FIA events. The penalty zones will be introduced into the Sport mode daily races sometime in the future.

Whether such penalty zones will ever be included in lobby races or offline modes is a total unknown at the current time.

I would like to see at least the option of using the penalty zones in all phases of the game if for nothing else but as for practice for the online races.

I would also like to see the same track limits imposed across the board again whether online or offline to create a consistent pattern to learn or follow.

Many use offline or custom races to practice car/track combo's matching fuel use/tire wear for applying what is learned online.

 

[SleezyBigSlim]

I like the penalty zones. Can't wait until it comes to daily races. I'm much more competitive as the idiots who rear end me and run me off the track are punished and I don't come in last place. This new penalty system is defiantly better for the slower/not so good drivers which should lead to more people playing Sport mode when they implement it. Looking forward to it.

 

[Whitey093]

I think it would be fun at live events if they implemented a more sadistic level of penalty such as the 24 hours of lemons often employ. The drivers would hate it but you can’t deny the entertainment value for all those watching at home. Here’s a good example: