people who track or race cars irl

[Brainhulk]

What is the most glaring deficiency gran turismo has that you think can be fixed by PD?

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

They need to get some sort of damage model in the game. In real life I cant take a car from 6th gear and slam it into first without consequences. Also cant slam a wall or other cars in real life without damaging our cars. Would also be nice to swap engines and drivetrain components like in real life. I could go on but that's a good start for the thread. Being able to tell which part of the tire is wearing would also be wonderful. Right now the entire tire icon just turns red. You never really know if your tire has too much camber or not enough.

Besides, 6 is not out yet so this would be more appropriate for the GT5 forum.

 

[Rod Carvalho]

The two times I drove a rental modded car at Nordschleife I was afraid to crash and having to pay the insurance excess. This fear is lacking in GT

 

[avens]

Fitting racing soft tires to a Beetle.

 

[MrWednesday]

What is the most glaring deficiency gran turismo has that you think can be fixed by PD?

Physics modeling:

• The tire model is fairly heavily criticized. Reportedly, it's much improved for GT6.
• The suspension model isn't quite as heavily criticized, but there are some questions about whether some parameters work the way they should. Reportedly, it's much improved for GT6.
• I'm not sure if this is a suspension model issue or a general physics issue, but after tire effects, the big thing that jumps out at me is lift-off oversteer. It's much harder to induce in GT than it is in real life.

Those are the big ones that are critical to the differences in car response between real-life driving and GT driving, and they should be accessible to fix.

Damage modeling is fairly far down my list of things for PD to get right. Getting things "right" when you completely screw the pooch is far less important than getting things "right" for normal driving or smaller errors.

I race ChumpCar and LeMons and have driven the team car in track days as well.

 

[CarreraGT]

Engine sound. 100% the most glaring deficiency. Tyre and wind noise are alright but engine sounds are pathetic

 

[lGNAl]

The windscreen wipers don't work in the rain on standard cars. So you can't use the driver view during the rain. I don't know if that's the case with all standards, weather they be racing or non-racing cars. Or just non-racing standards. I hope all cars in GT6 have working wipers, flickering headlight and horns.

 

[Brainhulk]

Physics modeling:

• The tire model is fairly heavily criticized. Reportedly, it's much improved for GT6.
• The suspension model isn't quite as heavily criticized, but there are some questions about whether some parameters work the way they should. Reportedly, it's much improved for GT6.
• I'm not sure if this is a suspension model issue or a general physics issue, but after tire effects, the big thing that jumps out at me is lift-off oversteer. It's much harder to induce in GT than it is in real life.

Those are the big ones that are critical to the differences in car response between real-life driving and GT driving, and they should be accessible to fix.

Damage modeling is fairly far down my list of things for PD to get right. Getting things "right" when you completely screw the pooch is far less important than getting things "right" for normal driving or smaller errors.

I race ChumpCar and LeMons and have driven the team car in track days as well.

I track my s2000 once in a while and wow, these are my exact same sentiments also. Not being able to induce lift off oversteer being fairly annoying. I try to mess with spring rates and sway bar settings in the game to no avail.

What has me excited is they seemed to have fixed it in the demo. Here is my video of me driving the leaf. Slow car, so most of my rotation I induce is lifting. Not alot of trail braking needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjCjXK0FPmE

Maybe its because the leaf doesnt use racing soft tires? Lol, idk, im going to attribute it to an improved physics model. Good job PD.

 

[Bopop4]

WAY too much grip.

Cars use tires, not magnets.

 

[Zuel]

They need to get some sort of damage model in the game. In real life I cant take a car from 6th gear and slam it into first without consequences. Also cant slam a wall or other cars in real life without damaging our cars. Would also be nice to swap engines and drivetrain components like in real life. I could go on but that's a good start for the thread. Being able to tell which part of the tire is wearing would also be wonderful. Right now the entire tire icon just turns red. You never really know if your tire has too much camber or not enough.

Besides, 6 is not out yet so this would be more appropriate for the GT5 forum.

Kaz clearly stated that the cars in GT6 will a similar damage model to GT5. He doesn't want to see the cars completely destroyed.
You can see here that the damage is more server in GT6.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Brakes. In real life you need to upgrade to full on racing brakes to seriously reduce fade, which of course is not an option in GT, and fade is not simulated. In some of the street cars we race with, throwing 400+ HP into them and running around on F1 qualifying style tires like many do online, would fade the brakes to nothing in a lap or two at the speeds we run, if they didn't disintegrate first. On top of that, considering brakes are on a scale of 0-10 there is very little difference between any of the brake settings in straightline braking. ABS isn't realistic it's more like a driving aid than anti-lock brakes...etc. etc. etc.

 

[MrWednesday]

Eh, I don't think it's unreasonable to automatically assume that we're on appropriate brakes that won't fade. In real life, I think it's generally assumed that if the brakes go away, you had some combination of wrong pad, wrong fluid, insufficient caliper, or insufficient cooling to the rotors, all of which can be fixed.

 

[Team THRT Drift]

Air filters.

If you go off the track and into the sand pits in a high-end racecar with a high-end filter, that very same filter can be clogged up when it attempts to filter out the sand. Causing your engine to shut-off due to lack of air to have proper combustion

 

[BoneSawTX]

Kaz clearly stated that the cars in GT6 will a similar damage model to GT5. He doesn't want to see the cars completely destroyed.
You can see here that the damage is more server in GT6.

that looks more like deformed clay than a damaged car

 

[Johnnypenso]

Eh, I don't think it's unreasonable to automatically assume that we're on appropriate brakes that won't fade. In real life, I think it's generally assumed that if the brakes go away, you had some combination of wrong pad, wrong fluid, insufficient caliper, or insufficient cooling to the rotors, all of which can be fixed.

Obviously we are on brakes that don't fade because they don't fade. But that's not realistic. Street car brakes will fade on just about any car on stock tires if you are winding it up to top speed and slowing it down at maximum decleration over and over, and that's not modeled in GT. Throw in 100 more HP and then throw some RS tires on the car and the brakes will fade even faster. We should have at least a racing brake upgrade if not simulated brake fade on stock brakes.

 

[Brainhulk]

Obviously we are on brakes that don't fade because they don't fade. But that's not realistic. Street car brakes will fade on just about any car on stock tires if you are winding it up to top speed and slowing it down at maximum decleration over and over, and that's not modeled in GT. Throw in 100 more HP and then throw some RS tires on the car and the brakes will fade even faster. We should have at least a racing brake upgrade if not simulated brake fade on stock brakes.

I don't think having that option is needed. It is a must thing to upgrade for every car that will be taken to the track. Everyone will automatically do it, so not having the option just saves us from that tedious step. Unless you are a glutton for failure and want to see your car plow into a barrier

 

[VBR]

There's a lot of sense being posted in his thread so far, its just a shame that PD will never read or heed any of it (please prove me wrong PD).

 

[jjaisli]

Physics modeling:

• The tire model is fairly heavily criticized. Reportedly, it's much improved for GT6.
• The suspension model isn't quite as heavily criticized, but there are some questions about whether some parameters work the way they should. Reportedly, it's much improved for GT6.
• I'm not sure if this is a suspension model issue or a general physics issue, but after tire effects, the big thing that jumps out at me is lift-off oversteer. It's much harder to induce in GT than it is in real life.

Those are the big ones that are critical to the differences in car response between real-life driving and GT driving, and they should be accessible to fix.

I concur with this as well. I've never understood how you can have a game that professes to be the ultimate driving simulator when it's so poor at simulating the only part of the car that actually makes contact with the asphalt--the tires. In addition to what you wrote, one can also add that the game does not take any of the following into account:

- tire size
- tire width
- aspect ratio (high profile/low profile etc)
- tire pressure (this is the biggest glaring flaw)
- "proper" relationships between heat/grip and degradation.

It's not so much that we don't have control over these options that bothers me, but the idea that the game is really not taking any of this data into account to begin with. How realistic can it be. And the one aspect of the tires that we do have control over falls flat--tire selection. For most road cars, comfort medium ~ comfort soft probably offers reasonably accurate levels of grip, although, in my opinion, they inaccurately simulate proper behavior in terms of understeer/oversteer, etc. Racing tires, in particular racing soft are a joke and offer levels of grip which are impossible. And they just shouldn't work on a road car. The key to a soft compound tire generating grip is by generating friction. And in order to generate friction you have to have tires operating at the correct temperature. It's much more complex than the game leads players to believe.

I know it's not easy. iRacing has been working on their tire model for years. They've been working with a tire manufacturer and constantly tweaking it with every build and they STILL can't get it right. And iRacing only has a few dozen cars/tire types. Imagine what a monumental task it would be with literally hundreds of different compounds.

Aside from this, two things which I also feel are important and missing are:

(1) the lack of danger. Which we'll never really have. But perhaps it would be nice to have a 'real' sim mode where driving off the track and hitting a wall or making hard contact with another car will actually damage your car to the point that your race is over. It's tiring hearing the ridiculous "I don't crash" or "the idea is not to crash" arguments from some of the apologists on GTP. Obviously the idea is not to crash. At least for some of us. But if you do, in real life, you would NOT be able to continue. Your race would be over. If people knew that, the driving in many lobbies would improve greatly.

(2) The slipstream. It improved during the spec 2.0 update. But it's still completely over-blown and unrealistic. And in my opinion it ruins on-line racing.

However, I don't think these concerns will really ever be addressed in a GT game. And here's why: (from the most recent interview with Kazunori)

GTP: Many game developers now are monitoring how players play their games and what features are the most popular. Have you done this with GT5, and if so, are there any interesting things that you have discovered from that data?
“In GT5, we do see how people are playing the game, and what we found was that a majority of the players are just casual players.

Proof in the pudding. MOST of the people who play GT are not people like us on GTP, they are casual gamers, people who never finish the game, never bother striving of S licenses, pushing for that ultimate realism. And they treat the game like Mario Kart. With better graphics. And these kind of people don't want and don't care about ultimate realism. And if they want to sell millions of copies to everybody, instead of just a few hundred thousand to some hard-core sim racers, than they're forced to concentrate on what the majority want.

I'm expecting an improved tire model and improved physics in GT6. And I"m looking forward to it. 👍 But I'm not expecting it to offer the same level of realism as some of the hard-core PC sims. But when you consider their target audience (everybody) that's understandable.

 

[Trux]

.

I race ChumpCar and LeMons and have driven the team car in track days as well.

Is this you?

Yep ruined a good thread haven't I

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't think having that option is needed. It is a must thing to upgrade for every car that will be taken to the track. Everyone will automatically do it, so not having the option just saves us from that tedious step. Unless you are a glutton for failure and want to see your car plow into a barrier

Online racing on racing tires that will happen, yes. In clubs, leagues and various racing series, of which there are thousands, they will have the option of taking a much more realistic approach to racing street cars and having a more thorough GT experience. Your suggestion is akin to saying that because almost everyone uses RS tires online, we can just eliminate all other tire compounds because they are almost never used online which would be silly.

The more options we have for realism within the game regardless of whether we as individuals like to use them, makes for a better game, especially when it comes to something like this which would be relatively easy to program.

 

[Brainhulk]

Online racing on racing tires that will happen, yes. In clubs, leagues and various racing series, of which there are thousands, they will have the option of taking a much more realistic approach to racing street cars and having a more thorough GT experience. Your suggestion is akin to saying that because almost everyone uses RS tires online, we can just eliminate all other tire compounds because they are almost never used online which would be silly.

The more options we have for realism within the game regardless of whether we as individuals like to use them, makes for a better game, especially when it comes to something like this which would be relatively easy to program.

Not a valid comparison imo. Boiling your brake fluid will lead to loss of brake pressure until you go back to the hot pits and bleed it. Same with exceeding the temp range of your brake pads. Serious time will need to be spent in the pits or you might even crash your car. and thats why everybody who goes to the track uses proper brake pads and fluid.

you can run an entire race on non race tires without incident

 

[GODfreyGT5]

Online racing on racing tires that will happen, yes. In clubs, leagues and various racing series, of which there are thousands, they will have the option of taking a much more realistic approach to racing street cars and having a more thorough GT experience. Your suggestion is akin to saying that because almost everyone uses RS tires online, we can just eliminate all other tire compounds because they are almost never used online which would be silly.

He was talking about the upgraded brakes, not removing street tyres as an option

 

[Exorcet]

I don't think having that option is needed. It is a must thing to upgrade for every car that will be taken to the track. Everyone will automatically do it, so not having the option just saves us from that tedious step. Unless you are a glutton for failure and want to see your car plow into a barrier

It's not a must really. Depends on the race. Plenty wouldn't go with full upgrades, we see that already in GT where people attempt to use stock cars even though the online mode has poorly designed options for limiting car selection.

 

[Pupik]

The two times I drove a rental modded car at Nordschleife I was afraid to crash and having to pay the insurance excess. This fear is lacking in GT

You crash a car, no update. Also, you'll have to prepay for your next three DLCs. :/

I'm kind of surprised some sort of credit payment for repairs/maintenance hasn't been devised by now, but I suppose it would take away a bit of the fun, especially for an old car you hadn't used in 400 days (uh, I need a new battery).

 

[Kurei]

Skimmed the thread, only 1 person mentioned tire pressures directly.

...

None of you have actively 'tracked' cars have you ?

Here's a mini-list of things PD should work on, from someone who does track when possible (check my sig)

-Tire pressures and the ability to monitor or record tire-temps in 3 sections - outer/middle/inner. (this is huge for a cars response & feel)
-Offer more part-swapping, within a manufacturer and cross-manufacturer (depending on project purpose & platform). I run Integra brake calipers on my Civic, Camaro guys run Corvette brakes on theirs, 240sx's like the Z33 calipers and so-on & so-forth, so why not allow this upgrade option in GT at a fraction of the normal-upgrade price ?, it's not like manufacturers irl are going garage to poll-barn to stop this .
-Cost. Holy 🤬 PD, basic Bolt-ons & weight reduction DOES NOT cost a fortune, hell weight-reduction is free technically , Tires (depending on size) are not insanely expensive. And fully adjustable suspension can be had w/o going bank-rupt. This is huge for low-end cars, I wouldn't spend $20,000 on suspension for my Civic, and wouldn't have to in order to get all the adjustability, I could spend a fraction of that and get everything I would ever need out of a suspension.

Just because Kaz plays with expensive toys, doesn't mean we should be forced into this 'GT Market' pricing, go pick-up a issue of GrassrootsMotorsports, check theirs & others projects that achieve goals w/o emptying pocket books, And you'll see how fast low-buck solutions can be.

(/mini-rant, lol)

 

[Johnnypenso]

Skimmed the thread, only 1 person mentioned tire pressures directly.

...

None of you have actively 'tracked' cars have you ?

Here's a mini-list of things PD should work on, from someone who does track when possible (check my sig)

-Tire pressures and the ability to monitor or record tire-temps in 3 sections - outer/middle/inner. (this is huge for a cars response & feel)
-Offer more part-swapping, within a manufacturer and cross-manufacturer (depending on project purpose & platform). I run Integra brake calipers on my Civic, Camaro guys run Corvette brakes on theirs, 240sx's like the Z33 calipers and so-on & so-forth, so why not allow this upgrade option in GT at a fraction of the normal-upgrade price ?, it's not like manufacturers irl are going garage to poll-barn to stop this .
-Cost. Holy 🤬 PD, basic Bolt-ons & weight reduction DOES NOT cost a fortune, hell weight-reduction is free technically , Tires (depending on size) are not insanely expensive. And fully adjustable suspension can be had w/o going bank-rupt. This is huge for low-end cars, I wouldn't spend $20,000 on suspension for my Civic, and wouldn't have to in order to get all the adjustability, I could spend a fraction of that and get everything I would ever need out of a suspension.

Just because Kaz plays with expensive toys, doesn't mean we should be forced into this 'GT Market' pricing, go pick-up a issue of GrassrootsMotorsports, check theirs & others projects that achieve goals w/o emptying pocket books, And you'll see how fast low-buck solutions can be.

(/mini-rant, lol)

You also don't run around in a Kei car for 10 minutes and win $2,000,000 in real life, so the cost is actually relatively cheap compared to the rewards in the game.

 

[Kurei]

You also don't run around in a Kei car for 10 minutes and win $2,000,000 in real life...

I could (if it existed), I could & totally would & I'd enjoy it

But I get your point & it is valid, replace "don't" with "can't" and it'll carry the weight you want it to.

 

[MustangManiac]

None of you have actively 'tracked' cars have you ?

-Tire pressures and the ability to monitor or record tire-temps in 3 sections - outer/middle/inner. (this is huge for a cars response & feel)

Yes actually, the first time I was on a track, though on two wheels, was over 40 years ago! I do happen to agree completely with your first point. All the chassis set up and tire options are pretty much worthless without this ability. That and damage modeling are GT's two most glaring faults in my opinion.

 

[Bopop4]

I wouldn't spend $20,000 on suspension for my Civic,

The 20 grand buys you race equipment though.
If you buy really good stuff then it's going to be very expensive, not including installation.

Although I do agree that weight reduction should start out basically free, and then get more and more expensive when you start putting carbon everywhere.

 

[nascarlemanslmp]

I think having to repair the parts on the car and having to maintain it all of the time in the game would take away from some of the fun.