people who track or race cars irl

  • Thread starter Brainhulk
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I have been autocross racing before, & I have been in a 350Z drifting, ( not me drifting though ). & what gran turismo & probably every racing game lacks is real life feelings, like the car vibrating while understeering, or the feel of going sideways while drifting. I don't know if a game can ever bring the feeling of driving a real car.
 
Johnnypenso
Brakes. In real life you need to upgrade to full on racing brakes to seriously reduce fade, which of course is not an option in GT, and fade is not simulated. In some of the street cars we race with, throwing 400+ HP into them and running around on F1 qualifying style tires like many do online, would fade the brakes to nothing in a lap or two at the speeds we run, if they didn't disintegrate first:crazy:. On top of that, considering brakes are on a scale of 0-10 there is very little difference between any of the brake settings in straightline braking. ABS isn't realistic it's more like a driving aid than anti-lock brakes...etc. etc. etc.
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Brake fade is caused due to these factors; overheating of the brake surfaces, the rotor and the brake pads, overheating of the brake fluid will cause brake fade due to the solid fluid state have been compromised. The compound of a tire has nothing to do with brake fade; you could have any type of compound and still get the same fade if you work the brakes to hard. It’s how you use the brake that will cause brake fade. It doesn't matter if you have basic brakes or a full race kit, you over work the surfaces or fluid you will get brake fade.
 
Zuel
The compound of a tire has nothing to do with brake fade;
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:odd:
It has a ton to do with it.

You put race slicks on a road car and it will be able to brake much harder than normal, increasing brake fade.

Zuel
It’s how you use the brake that will cause brake fade. It doesn't matter if you have basic brakes or a full race kit, you over work the surfaces or fluid you will get brake fade.
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I don't think carbon brakes on a Pontiac Fiero are going to fade anytime soon.
 
Gran Turismo has come a very long way when it comes to real world physics, though we will not be able to get a full reputation of all the physics because of the community base. The only true physical bases, aspect that have been included in the Gran Turismo title are tire, aero, suspension. All of the other has been left out due to the community base, no reason for me to get into detail because it’s simple to figure out. I can see GT growing more to becoming a full sim but in order for that to happen at times PD must take heed in to what the community is asking for. As of now PC simulators are leading the way in physical aspects when it has to do with cars. This is due to (I’m sorry but I’m going to say it) they didn’t take all off the suggestions from the community. Yes they community knows what they want in a sim but trying to make it as close they had to bring in real world seasoned race drives to help them give what is being asked for.

I feel that PD should start doing the same, bring in a team of OUT side seasoned race drivers to help them develop GT even further. I understand the community has the best interest in the development of a sim but at time it’s only in their best interest and not the interest of the sim. This may be why for some GT5 fall by the way side.
 
Bopop4
:odd:
It has a ton to do with it.

You put race slicks on a road car and it will be able to brake much harder than normal, increasing brake fade.



I don't think carbon brakes on a Pontiac Fiero are going to fade anytime soon.
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Tires transfers force; yes you will stop faster on slicks due to softer rubber and a flatter contact patch. Carbon brakes on any car for that matter will fade if you work them to hard. I've over worked carbon brakes on a bloody Kart, you can even over work the single carbon brake on RC cars. You over work the brakes they will fade, doesn't matter what type of car, tire compound etc..

Addition:

You can even do it on a mountain bike.
 
There are a lot of times when you won't be able to work a brake hard enough to get any fade.

Flat track, 4-stroke karts, most bike rear brakes.

You put good brakes on a normal car and they might not even get up to operating temperature.

Bicycle brakes are pretty weak too.
 
Zuel
Brake fade is caused due to these factors; overheating of the brake surfaces, the rotor and the brake pads, overheating of the brake fluid will cause brake fade due to the solid fluid state have been compromised. The compound of a tire has nothing to do with brake fade; you could have any type of compound and still get the same fade if you work the brakes to hard. It’s how you use the brake that will cause brake fade. It doesn't matter if you have basic brakes or a full race kit, you over work the surfaces or fluid you will get brake fade.
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Not sure what you're trying to say. I know what causes brake fade, the OP wants to know from people with real life experience what parts of GT don't align with real life. My suggestion was in braking, both in fade, brake strength adjustment and in ABS/no ABS braking. Tires are related to brake fade because you won't have as much work for the brakes to do with harder compounds. Softer tires have more grip, therefore more weight transfer to the front tires and shorter stopping distances, which equals more work on the front brakes and more heat build up in the brakes and more fade. With less or no wheelspin and higher corner exit speeds, softer tires also lead to higher terminal velocity before braking, therefore more energy to convert to heat through the brakes, therefore more brake fade.

So yes, tire compounds do affect braking and brake fade.
 
Johnnypenso
Not sure what you're trying to say. I know what causes brake fade, the OP wants to know from people with real life experience what parts of GT don't align with real life. My suggestion was in braking, both in fade, brake strength adjustment and in ABS/no ABS braking. Tires are related to brake fade because you won't have as much work for the brakes to do with harder compounds. Softer tires have more grip, therefore more weight transfer to the front tires and shorter stopping distances, which equals more work on the front brakes and more heat build up in the brakes and more fade. With less or no wheelspin and higher corner exit speeds, softer tires also lead to higher terminal velocity before braking, therefore more energy to convert to heat through the brakes, therefore more brake fade.

So yes,tire compounds do affect braking and brake fade.
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First you didn't clearly state until now, second tires are not the true cause of brake fade. All the physical aspects you worded in the quote above is true beside a few, though it's to the driver on how well the brakes work. You have all of those factors in place but it all comes down to how hard the brakes are worked.

Wheel spin as nothing to with braking because there is no force of any of the surfaces, nor does corner exit speed, nor weight transfer at speed. Frontal force, lateral force under braking has a great involvement in brake fade. I know and clearly understand what the OP is asking for, though there is no reason to give the wrong or incomplete information about brake fade.
 
It has to be the combination of sound, sense of speed and fear to not crash the car (driving on the limit of your car).

GT can improve on both sound and sense of speed, fear is almost impossible to create. The tracks however are amazing.
 
I have only done a few track days and low level enthusiast races but easily the most exciting part is the standing start waiting for the light to change, often the time where you can win or lose the most. GT forgets all that and focuses on hunting wabbits.
 
The drivetrains feel a bit wooden; it's like they just offer a resistance, rather than an inertia and a resistance. Obviously, the inertia can be translated into a "resistance" (a force), but I don't think it's properly modeled.

This has historically caused small, lightweight, low-displacement, low-powered cars to be unreasonably lethargic and consequently slow. It ruins the fun of these cars, and disproportionately favours over-powered cars, reinforcing the oft-held belief that "ordinary" cars don't belong in GT.


ABS is still a driving aid, and needs to be labeled as such - maybe different versions could be offered - e.g. instead of independent per wheel only, have front and rear axle only, or whole system as well. Plus, proportional control is not the norm, on/off is; it's also generally feedback based (with a finite response time), rather than the "cheating", non-causal grip-lookup GT uses.

Brake bias adjustments are uselessly coarse and arbitrary / abstract: we need total braking power (e.g. as a deceleration force) and fine-grained bias adjustments, not individual axle power adjustments.

Brake temperature modeling would be nice. Cold brakes make cold tyres easier to handle due to dynamic bias shifts. If PD include the above "total braking power" setting, we can adjust the brakes to suit different tyres more easily, and temperature would only be a secondary concern (upgrade the parts to stop your new tyres cooking your brakes). It's a nice detail, but not exactly necessary - highly desirable in my case, I'd say, especially for the dynamic bias effect in the braking zones (the balancing of which is where the real meat of brake part selection comes in, IMO).


The physics need to be more general, more integrated: when a car gets airborne, it loses any fidelity it had because it only really interacts with the world through its wheels. It needs to be a general, semi-distributed model (so the car has blobs of mass in the right places) that is solved in free space, not just through the wheels. Tie on the aero model, acting on the right locations, and things could get very interesting for fidelity in all situations.


Not exactly related, but due to the different way people want to play, I believe it should offer four modes of play:
  • Sandbox - sim-like all-access, includes "arcade" - all options, all possibilities e.g. "event creator" - great for those who do track / race, or who have done GT-Mode countless times already.
  • Pokémon - collector mode, with challenges etc. per car or track, also the museum and other related things.
  • Career - proper career in any of a number of "series" (i.e. GT Mode events), limited budget, compromise etc., hardcore damage etc., reduced focus on "winning", just doing what you can with what you have - great for fiddling with one car in detail.
  • GT mode - Classic progression, introduces you to cars, types of racing, tuning etc. and teaches these things through doing.
There should be a way of offering benefits in each other mode for progress in any given one (maybe having all paint codes available - assuming the basic method is a custom paint mixer - for a car when you "collect" it, or its stock wheels always available in GT mode etc., not just as and when) but things should not be artificially blocked. Each mode would have an online counterpart, except maybe collector (outside of trading).


I could go on, but the key point is I'm not expecting any of this. I intend to use this thread to tick things off when GT6 comes out, so we know what they did and didn't do. We all have our own focus, and PD can't cater to all of that at once (there is a lot to "fix"). The best thing PD can do is open the game up more, add more optional challenge etc.
 
Zuel
First you didn't clearly state until now, second tires are not the true cause of brake fade. All the physical aspects you worded in the quote above is true beside a few, though it's to the driver on how well the brakes work. You have all of those factors in place but it all comes down to how hard the brakes are worked.

Wheel spin as nothing to with braking because there is no force of any of the surfaces, nor does corner exit speed, nor weight transfer at speed. Frontal force, lateral force under braking has a great involvement in brake fade. I know and clearly understand what the OP is asking for, though there is no reason to give the wrong or incomplete information about brake fade.
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How can weight transfer not affect brake fade? On CS tires you might have 66.6/33.3 weight distribution under hard braking, with RS tires maybe 80/20. If you have the exact same brakes doing twice the work in one case, and 4 times the work in another case, you will have more brake fade in the front, it's physics.
 
To add to that.

More grip will mean that the straightaway speeds will be higher, which means that there will be more braking force generated to slow to car down from the higher speed.
 
Watching temperatures (oil, cooling, brakes and cabin!) and tire pressures are what I find most lacking in GT. Perhaps because I run older cars on track this is more important but no mention of them in Turismo.

Also gravel, oil and debris on the Tarmac. Real life hazards missing too.
 
T_Exige
It has to be the combination of sound, sense of speed and fear to not crash the car (driving on the limit of your car).

GT can improve on both sound and sense of speed, fear is almost impossible to create. The tracks however are amazing.
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You hit it right on the head. I have about 8 track days under my belt and Gran Turismo doesn't capture the thrill of driving a car at its limits. Like you mentioned, it will be hard to replicate the fear of real life driving but my goodness they can increase the sound and sense of speed. Gran Turismo misses out on the violence off cars. By violence, I mean the brute strength of high horepower cars shifting through the gears, cars breaking late while the front of the car dances , the idle of a cammed v8, the sound of a big turbo car, etc. Things like this matter a lot to me, more so than things like brake fade (it would be a nice addition though). I am not a game developer but there has to be something they can do. I drive a stock CTS-V and it sounds better then my full blown race cars in GT5.

To add to that, I also wish they made events feel more like a real race with the option to practice, qualify, then race. This would only be fun if the AI was vastly improved.
 
Fear is impossible to recreate for anyone who plays in their room/on the couch in their living room, etc. Fear can only be captured if they create a play seat that recreates the G-Forces one would experience. This play seat has already been done, but it's not for the average home user.

Sounds can be improved and they're doing so - at least we're told.

Sense of speed can be captured by giving the user a better FOV, or at least an option to change the FOV settings - settings found in the secret menu do this, and have immensely helped the game for most users. Also, other camera angles such as the helmet cam can be improved.

In SHIFT 2 they captured speed pretty well, and for me, I only got the fear to crash my car because of its wonky physics and decent damage model.
 
My biggest gripe that needs to be addressed is the suspension, and lack of correct handling changes given a certain adjustment. This is most obvious on FWD cars.

Also, regarding the cost of tires - the idea is that you are buying a lifetime supply of those tires for that car. If you had to buy every single set of tires you went through, as interesting as that would be, you'd spend a LOT of money.
 
Like many in this thread, grip (aka tires and suspension)

When you really dig into what you get (as opposed to what is presented to you in the UI), the chassis has all the grip. The "tire model" is just a common grip multiplier. In other words, if you chassis sucks, it will always suck, which isn't realistic.

..and the suspension makes no sense.

Chassis upgrades should make the cars closer to par and the tires should deliver a spec tire scenario. In other words, the power/weight ration, weight distribution, suspension, should be relied upon to make a difference.

But I agree with the sentiment that PD will most likely ignore this thread altogether.
 
I track (car & karting) and race (karting) in real life.
Trying gt6 the only things still unacceptable is the tyre behaviour during brakes (the NO ABS options is just some fantasy in the head of PD, never seen a tyre behave in that way in real life, there is no any modulation).
But i suspect the problem is in the tyre model. But judging by the brake setup i suspect the brake model is no sense too: i can't translate in any way to the real life the absolute value set up of brakes, it just can only be relative, the absolute force of the pad against disk is determined by pedal pressure.
What's the difference between a Front Brake: 5 - Rear Brake: 5 and Front Brake: 9 - Rear Brake: 9 setup? In real life i don't have any clue.

Another problem in gt and many other simulators is the LOOK TO APEX function, there is a real fov problem in these games, you can't judge the corner properly, and that's a problem not just for finding the right apex but also to evaluate your speed.
The only way to race in gt is to know perfectly the track, that's not so necessary in real life.
The look to apex function is essential to corner properly, even if not solves the problem completely.

I think the only way to solve this FOV problem is something like a oculus rift.
 
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The tires I run on my s2000, hankook rs3's, dont really provide audible feedback until you have some good slip angle. I know that is the case with most rcomp's also.
 
I race in a ABS 0 league where we have 3 GT silverstone finalists and lots of GT Acadamy top regional 50 names, the concenus seems to be the same, the biggest difference is that in GT5 a slight drift into corners is always quicker, in real life you want to be at that transition between the two but retaining traction, in GT5 a slight step over to the drift side is quicker, im hoping GT6 punishes loss of traction more, although the GT5 drift was still evident in the last GTacadamy/GT6 demo so im not holding out too much hope.

Btw ABS 0 is tottally wrong as well, myself and my league mates only race ABS 0 and this seems to just compound the problem above, if you lift off the brakes too fast with ABS 0 its like the rear diff locks up instead of lift off oversteer.
 
CJSpencer77
I race in a ABS 0 league where we have 3 GT silverstone finalists and lots of GT Acadamy top regional 50 names, the concenus seems to be the same, the biggest difference is that in GT5 a slight drift into corners is always quicker, in real life you want to be at that transition between the two but retaining traction, in GT5 a slight step over to the drift side is quicker, im hoping GT6 punishes loss of traction more, although the GT5 drift was still evident in the last GTacadamy/GT6 demo so im not holding out too much hope.

Btw ABS 0 is tottally wrong as well, myself and my league mates only race ABS 0 and this seems to just compound the problem above, if you lift off the brakes too fast with ABS 0 its like the rear diff locks up instead of lift off oversteer.
Click to expand...

That diff lock thing seems to have been something that crept in out of nowhere. I'd have to give GT5:P a spin to be sure, but I remember it suddenly being an issue (say at Monza's chicanes) that I had to be off the brakes much sooner to avoid that snap. Whereas before I could reduce the braking as I turned the steering wheel, I suddenly had to avoid that altogether if I'd just done some heavy braking. "Brushing" the brakes has always been fine, and remains one of the major advantages to ABS 0, subtly bringing the back end around into corners (like rear-wheel steering), whilst ABS tended to give perfect tracking instead.

It might well be a tyre model issue though, since it's actually quicker to stop in a straight line with the brakes locked! Plus the steering with locked brakes and the recovery from that has always been a bit odd - then again, so has the wheelspin "recovery"... 💡
 

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