Performance Point system fails because of...

  • Thread starter chuyler1
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Corpsey
I think the PP are actually quite balanced if you have the skill to be running a race with a restriction in the first place, because there will always be a car that will be in first and a car that will be in second, and those will be decided by the preparedness experience of the drivers. Whichever driver has practiced more wins; not just on the track, but in the tune menu
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But this is where you are wrong. Car selection makes a huge difference. You simply cannot keep pace with an Elise in a Toyota MR2 of the same weight/hp. You could drive the balls off the MR2 but in the end the Elise will just duck into a corner and go around you like it was on rails. Your statement only becomes true if both drivers were in the same car.

I'm not saying the PP system is completely broken...I'm saying it is flawed enough that you cannot assume that losing to another driver was because of skill. In most cases, it is because of car selection unless you know you were making mistakes.

Occasionally two cars are equal enough that the draft resolves any issues...but I find I only come across tight battles once or twice a week (I play on average 1-2hrs a night, several nights a week). Actually its to the point where if I win a race by more than 3 seconds I switch to a car that handicaps my driving. That sometimes works, but other times I just get run off the track by less experienced drivers.
 
^ You're just proving the system works though... if there was a PP restriction, the elise would win, but say that restriction wasn't there and there was only a restriction on weight.. you could find a car that has more horsepower. And so yes, the statement IS true if both drivers are in the same car (elise) but they would only be if they were knowledgeable enough to choose one to drive, and so the one with more skill would still win imo. If people think the PP system is flawed, try putting it more than a specific amount.. like everyone is so general when it comes to what number it should be; 300, 400, 500, 600, 700 or any nth +50 variable of those.. well (and correct me if I'm wrong) can you not set it to 320? or any RANDOM number? If you want people to use something other than a specific car, you have to set it so that a car is potentially better, and I still think that there will always be 1 car that should set the standard because whichever car wins has proven that it is the dominant car, unless it raced the dominant car by a driver with less skill, in which case he lost outright.. All I'm saying is that once you start applying restriction, unless you specifically say "We would like people to enter without X device or X car" people will choose similar cars :\ or even, they SHOULD because the PP should not balance the game for you in such a way that people wont choose parts that are clearly advantageous to have. Quite the opposite.. Also because there are things that can modify PP (Ballast, Aerodynamics, Powerlimiter) I don't think people are exploring all the options for what can be considered the top car in the PP restrictions.
 
chuyler1
But this is where you are wrong. Car selection makes a huge difference. You simply cannot keep pace with an Elise in a Toyota MR2 of the same weight/hp. You could drive the balls off the MR2 but in the end the Elise will just duck into a corner and go around you like it was on rails. Your statement only becomes true if both drivers were in the same car.
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That depends: Does such a test take into account differences in suspension settings/geometry?
Because if it doesn't (and keep in mind Performance Points don't, and really shouldn't, take suspension tuning into account), than an MR2 getting walked by an Elise with identical weight/power numbers should happen because it would happen in real life.
 
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Ghost Rydor
PP works best in cars with over 500hp. PP can be exploited in under 500hp cars with the air restrictor giving bigger capacity engines the max Hp at all rpms while the guys with little engines maxed out will only briefly peak at max power.
All races I host using cars with under 500hp I enforce a PP and Hp regulation based on what I'm using ( a car with maxed out Hp ) and the races are always bumper to bumper. You don't need to match both regs just one and be under the other. Since things like weight and torque are still not regulated people can still get the edge on me though generally speaking it works flawlessly ie very close races.

I just get everyone on the track under one reg then change it to the other (pp/Hp) reg anyone fibbing about meeting criteria is automatically kicked back to the lobby to change then I do it all over again.
You get the occasional smart arse who quits after I start the race start countdown and tries to change his specs to cheat the field but I just quit out and kick them.

This system seems to be the only way to regulate people into cars with matched performance. The air restrictor should be binned and replaced with an alterable Cpu that changes the power curve overall instead of just cutting off the peak.
That air restrictor is the real enemy here. It's made a game difficult to regulate even harder.
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This is interesting, especially the manner of enforcement. I think it is worth trying just to introduce variety into a night's worth of racing. I would try it by weight and PP. 450pp with 900kg restriction will get a certain set of cars but raise it to 1000kg, 1050, 1100 etc. and different cars will emerge as dominant for that weight class. People can try to keep their lighter cars as you go up, but should find that high ballast would lessen their natural handling advantage. Won't solve the MR2 issue, but people would need more than one or two cars in their stable.
 
Just did a test of this. Took my 400pp 207 and added some upgrades to make it 421pp, then restricted it down to 400pp again. Result: GP/D lap time 2 seconds faster.
 
I like the PP system as an alternative to HP/Weight because it includes aerodynamics.

I agree some cars are faster than others. That's just the way things work in the game, and in the real world too.

The way I see things, the PP option is there for those hosts who choose to use it, and there are other options for those who don't like it.
 
I have 2 X2010 S. Vettels. One has 0 miles and stock hp, 1,4XX something. My other one is broken in with 1,556 hp, but somehow, it has less PP then my non used less powerful one. More miles=less PP? Both have the same tune and I'm only assuming that the one with 100hp is slightly faster, just a guess. Just trying to figure it out.
 
i edited out my original post because it's hard to explain that phenomenon.. but the car that is brand new has to be broken in basically.. won/premium cars. Otherwise, it randomly gives you that penalty of PP.. idk why it doesn't really make sense.
 
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I think some of you are missing the point of a PP system.

There's no sense saying, "If you have an 80s Civic and a 2009 Civic with the same PP, the newer one is always going to be faster because technology has moved on". The point of the PP system is to allow you to match those 2 cars evenly around an average lap. If the 2009 car is faster, it should have a higher PP! Simple!

I hope they're still looking at it. If they play online themselves, even just a little, they'll see quite quickly how poorly it actually works.
 
chuyler1
...PD massively failed with the PP system....

I think i'd be more satisfied with the PP system if it were based on typical car specs like 0-60mph, 0-120mph, cornering Gs, and slalom times. Simulating them can't be too difficult and it would provide closer performing cars. It may also allow for accounting for tuning changes like transmission gearing.
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Absolutely spot on mate, we'll have to file this one under: PD Fail - Number 269.


:sly:
 
Maybe you could "Submit a car for PP ranking." And have an AI driver complete X number of laps at a specific circuit. Then the PP is based on its performance and if you change anything except for certain allowed things, you invalidate the PP ranking.
 
curtis_boy
tire width doesn't exist in the GT5 world.
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It's not tweakable by the user (not directly at least. Fitting upgraded rims on Premium cars, or sport/race tires slightly increases tire width, at least visually) but it is definitely taken into account in driving dynamics in GT5.
Cars with skinny tires for example have huge problems climbing steep hills (when using Comfort tire compounds). This is however also the result of faulty tire physics, especially at low speeds.
 
sinbad
I think some of you are missing the point of a PP system.

There's no sense saying, "If you have an 80s Civic and a 2009 Civic with the same PP, the newer one is always going to be faster because technology has moved on". The point of the PP system is to allow you to match those 2 cars evenly around an average lap. If the 2009 car is faster, it should have a higher PP! Simple!
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That's like saying the person with largest income has the highest IQ.
You think some people are missing the point of the PP system, but I know you certainly have.
 
Sander 001
That's like saying the person with largest income has the highest IQ.
You think some people are missing the point of the PP system, but I know you certainly have.
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So the car is the person, and pp is the income, and iq is the lap time?
So you think it's wrong to look at a car's pp and think "that must be quicker than this car of a lower pp"?

Lol, please explain your random analogy, and also why you don't think pp should simply reflect a car's basic performance potential.
 
sinbad
I think some of you are missing the point of a PP system.

There's no sense saying, "If you have an 80s Civic and a 2009 Civic with the same PP, the newer one is always going to be faster because technology has moved on". The point of the PP system is to allow you to match those 2 cars evenly around an average lap. If the 2009 car is faster, it should have a higher PP! Simple!

I hope they're still looking at it. If they play online themselves, even just a little, they'll see quite quickly how poorly it actually works.
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You are using the wrong word, in this case "improved track performance" would be suitable. Another thing is that it represents acceleration, handling, top speed and braking ability just like in GT5p


A different P/W ratio can affect it too not just aero
 
bSUPERSPORT
You are using the wrong word, in this case "improved track performance" would be suitable. Another thing is that it represents acceleration, handling, top speed and braking ability just like in GT5p

A different P/W ratio can affect it too not just aero
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If you read my post you'd see I refer only to relative lap times on an average circuit.
 
When it comes to finding competitive races, the PP system just muddied the already black waters; it's completely useless. My spreadsheet is still the best solution I think, unfortunately.

The only truly accurate way to match up cars is by using lap times on a given track by the same driver on the same tires.
 
I'd say it is a close system given cars that are close in performance in real life. If you want perfection, run same-make-same-model rooms and STFU about it being unfair.
 
bSUPERSPORT
If you read my post you'd be educated on how more complex PP is.
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So now what are you arguing?

That pp doesn't have to work very well because it's very complex?

That the basic purpose of pp is a mystery?

Please do not attempt to "educate" me by rattling off a list of elements which are clearly all part of a general "performance". (Hence "performance" points, see?). Pp is designed to help match cars, and since gt is a circuit racing game that matching has to apply to circuits or it is redundant.
 
sinbad
So now what are you arguing?

That pp doesn't have to work very well because it's very complex?

That the basic purpose of pp is a mystery?

Please do not attempt to "educate" me by rattling off a list of elements which are clearly all part of a general "performance". (Hence "performance" points, see?). Pp is designed to help match cars, and since gt is a circuit racing game that matching has to apply to circuits or it is redundant.
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"Oh but lets get all the numbers equal and 'poof' the cars cross the finish line at the same time"
Please don't go on a strop because your experiment on an "average track" baffled you in an unexpected way.:rolleyes:
You'll understand that there is no one way of explaining things
 
bSUPERSPORT
"Oh but lets get all the numbers equal and 'poof' the cars cross the finish line at the same time"
Please don't go on a strop because your experiment on an "average track" baffled you in an unexpected way.:rolleyes:
You'll understand that there is no one way of explaining things
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Strop? Lol. If answering when someone replies with nonsense is a strop then I'm guilty.


Pp is theoretical, but surely even someone as contrary as you would agree that it's no good for it to work only at the daytona oval, or only at autumn ring mini. Hence my use of the term "average circuit".

Anyway, not sure what you're trying to say now. That I'm wrong and it works, or that people don't miss the point of it and that newer cars should have lower pp than their performance denotes. (The first post you quoted, which is a quite different point altogether).

Oh and :rolleyes:
 
sinbad
Strop? Lol. If answering when someone replies with nonsense is a strop then I'm guilty.


Pp is theoretical, but surely even someone as contrary as you would agree that it's no good for it to work only at the daytona oval, or only at autumn ring mini. Hence my use of the term "average circuit".

Anyway, not sure what you're trying to say now. That I'm wrong and it works, or that people don't miss the point of it and that newer cars should have lower pp than their performance denotes. (The first post you quoted, which is a quite different point altogether).

Oh and :rolleyes:
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Well, thats one more person educated by me 👍
 
calan_svc
When it comes to finding competitive races, the PP system just muddied the already black waters; it's completely useless. My spreadsheet is still the best solution I think, unfortunately.

The only truly accurate way to match up cars is by using lap times on a given track by the same driver on the same tires.
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I do agree PP hasn't done online racing much good. As I'm pretty sure we all know some cars have a 1-2 second advantage over others in the same rating. However the Power and Weight adjusters work great, for race cars. Otherwise the major problem I tend to see is cars with higher downforce in the same PP rating are always faster.
 

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