Performance Point system fails because of...

[bSUPERSPORT]

Now now. No need for a strop because your grammar was corrected.

Strop? Lol. If answering when someone replies with nonsense is a strop then I'm guilty.

Follow your own advice son.

 

[sinbad]

Follow your own advice son.

I offered no advice.

You invent things to argue with.
👍

Have fun kiddo.
Peace.

 

[bSUPERSPORT]

I offered no advice.

You invent things to argue with.
👍

Have fun kiddo.
Peace.

Past your bedtime i see......

 

[calan_svc]

The only answer I have is that PD massively failed with the PP system..

I'd say it is a close system given cars that are close in performance in real life. If you want perfection, run same-make-same-model rooms and STFU about it being unfair.

Uhhh... So WTF are you trying to say? Are you dogging it, or defending it?

*******

Grab your favorite cars, put SS tires on them, test and tune them on various tracks, and record the best laptimes for each car on each track. After a few months and several hundred laps, you'll have a true matchmaking system. 👍

Lap times don't lie.

 

[SavageEvil]

I think some of you are missing the point of a PP system.

There's no sense saying, "If you have an 80s Civic and a 2009 Civic with the same PP, the newer one is always going to be faster because technology has moved on". The point of the PP system is to allow you to match those 2 cars evenly around an average lap. If the 2009 car is faster, it should have a higher PP! Simple!

I hope they're still looking at it. If they play online themselves, even just a little, they'll see quite quickly how poorly it actually works.

You try to make a point but the fact is PP tries to help you balance a car to match another cars performance, problem is many cars and it's true in real life some cars you just cannot match no matter what you do short of making one car a completely different animal.

People complaining about PP making hard to find competitive races are full of it. You are always going to run into cars that are just better handling and better performing within the same PP. 600PP is what you see, but that doesn't make it equal to a car that is listed as 600.9PP I believe that the PP system goes into the tenths and hundredths. Remember that cars are still a mixture of variables, unless you are running the exact same cars one car will have a slight advantage. Many people tune their cars PP to get the most out of it for the course they are on. Short course you would most likely tune it to be med to lightweight as short courses require agility over power, long courses courses like Nur a heavier car with power and top end work better.

I spend a lot of time in PP races, it's all about tuning and the cars that tend to be naturally better are MR cars like the NSX and Elise. Go figure, considering that NSX in Super GT are given a weight penalty because their performance is above those of FR cars. I'm not sure why people are complaining this much considering the alternative is much worse as it just whittles the competition down to cars with incredibly wide performance ranges.

 

[irmopars]

'69 Challenger

They did not make a 1969 dodge challenger, production Dodge Challengers were 70-74. Just a FYI

 

[midjetv8]

The way i reckon it fails is because my zr1 (non race modded) has more pp than a toyota gt one and a mazda 787b.

 

[NjLowrider]

Two jgtc cars with the same pp is still unfair! How could this be?? How could this be overlooked??

If I took let's say a fully tuned mobil 1 nsx and a fully tuned loctite gtr skyline and put them at 550pp the nsx is way faster because of the starting hp/torque.

The only way to have these cars even is to leave them bone stock, which nobody online does.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

The only way to have these cars even is to leave them bone stock, which nobody online does.

This is where PD fails. Yes, PP isn't perfect, but the big problem is one can't create more elaborate race restictions.

 

[SavageEvil]

The way i reckon it fails is because my zr1 (non race modded) has more pp than a toyota gt one and a mazda 787b.

Seriously is that ZR1 running the same power to weight ratio as those cars? Or is it grossly overpowered, you sir have zero grasp of the idea of PP as a whole. PP takes weight, power, torque availability and overall grip(skidpad). So if you have a car with very high hp and low weight and gobs of torque then it may rank higher but not necessarily be a better vehicle since handling might be a serious issue.

A drag racer will have the same PP as many of the race cars power to weight ratio greatly outweigh it's grip rating enough to keeps it's PP high. The funniest thing to see is someone wanting to increase the PP in a production car only room and we are running 550PP...600PP is the limit for me. Watching 300PP cars tuned to 600PP is funny as they do not handle that well, but whatever some people think they are supposed to be competitive. Perhaps in a straight line, everything else is up to your skill behind the wheel my friend.

 

[bSUPERSPORT]

Two jgtc cars with the same pp is still unfair! How could this be?? How could this be overlooked??

If I took let's say a fully tuned mobil 1 nsx and a fully tuned loctite gtr skyline and put them at 550pp the nsx is way faster because of the starting hp/torque.

The only way to have these cars even is to leave them bone stock, which nobody online does.

Driver's ability also has to be taken into account, but it is similar to nfs shift 1 & 2 where the Mclaren f1 has less points than lets say a Zonda Fangio, doesn't mean it isnt faster.

 

[sinbad]

So people make generalisations (accurate ones) about how groups of cars are slower than others at the same PP, about how tuned cars at 600pp are typically slower than 600pp "out of the box" cars, and nobody thinks that means the pp rating system is flawed?


It might be impossible to match some cars with one another, but if that's the case, and we all know it, then for the PP to match makes a mockery of it.

There is no logic to saying "Car x and car y have the same PP but x is faster because it's faster, and that's the way it should be".

 

[Willfred_1]

does any one use the power and weight limit any more as if some one was 2-3 seconds faster i would often ask if they could change the car for more competitive racing no one would object as the closer races are more fun

 

[Exorcet]

Two jgtc cars with the same pp is still unfair! How could this be?? How could this be overlooked??

If I took let's say a fully tuned mobil 1 nsx and a fully tuned loctite gtr skyline and put them at 550pp the nsx is way faster because of the starting hp/torque.

The only way to have these cars even is to leave them bone stock, which nobody online does.

PP works more than fine for Super GT. The very same issue came up in a race I was in. Someone said I was winning because I was driving a NSX (vs mostly GT-R's). I switched to a GT-R, set it to the same PP and set the same top qualifying time and went on to win the race as I had in the previous races.

 

[Tornado]

So people make generalisations (accurate ones) about how groups of cars are slower than others at the same PP, about how tuned cars at 600pp are typically slower than 600pp "out of the box" cars, and nobody thinks that means the pp rating system is flawed?

No, because PP doesn't take into account suspension or LSD tuning, because there is no possible way that it could do so.

There is no logic to saying "Car x and car y have the same PP but x is faster because it's faster, and that's the way it should be".

I'm sure if you had actually read those posts beyond just the parts you mock quoted, you would find that there is more to it than that.

 

[bSUPERSPORT]

No, because PP doesn't take into account suspension or LSD tuning, because there is no possible way that it could do so.


I'm sure if you had actually read those posts beyond just the parts you mock quoted, you would find that there is more to it than that.

I thought i was educating him well.....

 

[Sander 001]

So the car is the person, and pp is the income, and iq is the lap time?
So you think it's wrong to look at a car's pp and think "that must be quicker than this car of a lower pp"?

Lol, please explain your random analogy, and also why you don't think pp should simply reflect a car's basic performance potential.

It does.
But in your simplistic view you demand that the same PP of 2 cars will produce the exact same lap times on every track.

Ok, forget the IQ analogy; you're very far off. Instead, if you can understand the difference between weight and mass, you'll understand why the PP system is a good tool.

 

[Nismo34]

Simple fact of the matter is that this PP system is a rating given to a car if the 1 driver, lets say the stig, drove the car the right way, the way the car need to be driven. The problems you guys are seeing is because either you cant drive your cars the way the need or the people your up against know how to drive thier cars to perfection.
Its not what you drive, Its how you drive it.
For example, I was in my lotus Elise RM in a race online. Around deep forest raceway I could overtake a guy in a toyota Minolta. The minolta would obviously win but the guy couldnt control/drive it properly (wide lines, shotty braking points) therefore my elise could overtake it.
I dont find a problem with the PP system. Its a good system. It would probably be better if it took into account the tyre choice too.

 

[calan_svc]

For example, I was in my lotus Elise RM in a race online. Around deep forest raceway I could overtake a guy in a toyota Minolta. The minolta would obviously win but the guy couldnt control/drive it properly (wide lines, shotty braking points) therefore my elise could overtake it.

You're talking about two different drivers. And you may have had different tires too. The PP system had very little to do with this, so it proves nothing.

I dont find a problem with the PP system. Its a good system. It would probably be better if it took into account the tyre choice too.

You're completely wrong.

You are comparing one car to another car, with different drivers. In that case, it doesn't matter what the PP values are for the cars.

If you want a true comparison, fully tun two cars (I said tune them; not necessarily modify them), put them on the same tires, and take them around the same track until you get consistent laps. Then record the best legal lap times for each car.

If you do that enough (I've logged hundreds of hours in a little over 300 cars BTW), you'll find that the PP system doesn't work for crap. And remember, this takes the driver, track, and tires out of the equation.

 

[SavageEvil]

You're talking about two different drivers. And you may have had different tires too. The PP system had very little to do with this, so it proves nothing.



You're completely wrong.

You are comparing one car to another car, with different drivers. In that case, it doesn't matter what the PP values are for the cars.

If you want a true comparison, fully tun two cars (I said tune them; not necessarily modify them), put them on the same tires, and take them around the same track until you get consistent laps. Then record the best legal lap times for each car.

If you do that enough (I've logged hundreds of hours in a little over 300 cars BTW), you'll find that the PP system doesn't work for crap. And remember, this takes the driver, track, and tires out of the equation.

Your plan is a bit flawed as no system in this universe can allow you to tune to different cars to the exact same PP. It's impossible just like it's impossible to have two identical human beings. Cars one car will have a slight advantage in one area, another car in another area fact of the matter is PP works fine in getting you cars that can work closely together in races. I have watched this as one car would have better acceleration and another would corner better, the reality is PP takes into account a bunch of variables and it doesn't have a limit on each attribute of the car, therefore you will see grossly overpowered cars with obscene weight hanging with lightweight cars.

People complaining are going off the fact that you can't use the PP while using the HP and weight limits. If PD returned the addition of tire type to the equation then the weight and hp limits within PP would make a little more sense. Nothing is perfect, you guys act like a bunch of children, oh his car is faster than mine PP system fails...really? Guaranteed in a weight and hp limited race anyone using an NSX around it's weight class will always have an advantage, the car is just better than pretty much all other cars in it's class. Real life it's the exact same deal, so what are you people actually crying about? If videogames are supposed to simulate closer to real life, then the PP system is pretty much doing it's job like real life, no system in real life works perfectly either. When that happens then we are in a Tron like society.

Take PP for what it is, a guideline, just because two cars have the same PP doesn't mean you will run identical lap times with both, nor be successful equally, it just doesn't happen. Just like real life, some cars are inherently better than others, just like some athletes are just better than others, big deal. With the amount of cars in this game you are sure to find a different auto that can compete.

 

[Nismo34]

You're talking about two different drivers. And you may have had different tires too. The PP system had very little to do with this, so it proves nothing.

Tyres were actually indeed the same and no, the PP system may have not played a part in this but it proves my point. If you know how to drive it, you can do well, if you dont know how to drive, well, its like trying to fire a minigun 1 handed, You aint gonna succeed.

 

[calan_svc]

just because two cars have the same PP doesn't mean you will run identical lap times with both, nor be successful equally, it just doesn't happen.

With all due respect, that's exactly my problem with the PP system. If car A is significantly faster than car B and they have the exact same PP rating, then the system is flawed (or at least unreliable).

A good example is the Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo. There are a lot (a LOT) of cars that you can tune to be equal to it PP wise, but very few of them will even come close to it on the track unless you tune them to a higher rating.

 

[Nismo34]

With all do respect, that's exactly my problem with the PP system. If car A is significantly faster than car B and they have the exact same PP rating, then the system is flawed (or at least unreliable).

A good example is the Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo. There are a lot (a LOT) of cars that you can tune to be equal to it PP wise, but very few of them will even come close to it on the track unless you tune them to a higher rating.

Well that example is flawed as well. I was in a 600pp room today with a heap of S2000 GT1 Turbo's And my Zonda R (tuned down to 600pp) a CT230, and a few others which I cant remember the names of right now were sticking very well to them and sometimes lapping a heap faster.

Yet another case of "Its not what you drive, Its how you drive it."

 

[sinbad]

With all do respect, that's exactly my problem with the PP system. If car A is significantly faster than car B and they have the exact same PP rating, then the system is flawed (or at least unreliable).

A good example is the Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo. There are a lot (a LOT) of cars that you can tune to be equal to it PP wise, but very few of them will even come close to it on the track unless you tune them to a higher rating.

Careful.

You're completely right.

@sander: I never asked for exactly equal lap times only for the obvious large and clearly quite predictable differences to be shown up in the pp rating, and I definitely didn't ask for equal lap times across every circuit, hence my repeated use of "average circuit". I don't mind people arguing with me (or I wouldn't post on an internet forum) but at least argue against what I have actually posted.

What I have to say is that given all this bizarre reaction to criticism of it, the idea that the pp system could not be improved is genuinely funny.

 

[Nismo34]

Im not saying it cant be improved, Im just saying that its already a fairly good guideline for selecting cars. Indeed, It could take into account more things such as drive type, acceleration/transmission setup and some other factors but without all that, it is a very good guideline.

 

[spapadillion]

I find the PP system to be incredibly accurate and have had some amazing mixed racing along the lines of Super GT versus Elise 111R RM versus '07 GT-R finishing within a few seconds of eachother on 5 laps of Suzuka. I can't imagine any other enforcable set of restrictions allowing something like that.

Could it be better? Certainly. So could sex w/ a supermodel, but you won't hear me complaining either way.

 

[sk0pe]

Gee some of you are anal.. Whoever on earth stated that PP would produce an exact scientific matchup that guaranteed a 100% even match up? It's a guideline (approximation) of a few different variables in order to give you a rough idea of similar car's based on those mostly known variables.

If you choose to view your garage by Performance Point then go to settings and adjust downforce and parts etc you can see exactly how much different parts affect small or large portions of the pp.

Obviously at say 500pp some cars are going to have better low RPM torque and acceleration but have less power at high rpm, while others will thrive being kept at the top of 3rd,4th and 5th gear and will power away. That's that nature of power curves and torque bands.

In my experience just as an example if you have everyone in street cars at any given PP 200-600 you will get a very even race apart from the variable skill of drivers. So yeah i don't think it fails it's just an alternative to HP and weight, and i'm sure there will be other filter's or the PP enhanced in the future.
It's not like we got 1 update then haven't heard anything since, we have had a few and i don't think we have had the last.

 

[SavageEvil]

With all due respect, that's exactly my problem with the PP system. If car A is significantly faster than car B and they have the exact same PP rating, then the system is flawed (or at least unreliable).

A good example is the Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo. There are a lot (a LOT) of cars that you can tune to be equal to it PP wise, but very few of them will even come close to it on the track unless you tune them to a higher rating.

Obviously you are missing the point, PP will never give you two different cars that are perfectly evenly matched, it never happens in real life. In fact the only time cars are remotely close to each other in performance is in probably F1, even that isn't everyone driving the same car. As proof with RedBull mud stomping all the other teams with their insanely quick cars. Cars should be relatively close to one another, but in fact there are differences that change how much better one can perform even if you set everything to come within a micron of accuracy in both vehicles.

Get over it, and understand within reality the things you guys are asking doesn't happen so why one earth would PD even attempt to do so? Remember that their game engine does calculate performance pretty well and a car is a sum of it's parts so taking all the variables and expecting it to match the other set of variables from another car plus adding in the fact that you can't drive both cars the exact same way. Get real, PP is just a guideline, much more useable than HP and Weight limits. Use your brain and test cars you aren't sure about, I don't care how much you tune a '70 Charger it will never out strip a Viper, even if you detuned the Viper to match the Charger. There are just things that no system on earth can calculate accurately and create completely identical cars, especially performance wise. Real life has other variables including parts not working perfectly all the time, even more variables to consider. GT5 has enough variables as well to keep the cars true to life and not have cars magically being able to run with other cars when in reality that would never happen. Some cars can be tuned to run as well as another car, but they will never be equal....that doesn't exist in this reality.

PP is just a number figure given to grade the overall performance of your car, as I said before it does not have a limit for each category in which it grades the car just like the one in FM3. Some cars can have identical PI like say the S7 and the R33 Skyline both tuned, you'll be hard pressed to beat the R33 lap times using the S7. You would have to drive the S7 harder to match the times. Using the F1LM you would post faster times than the S7 and have an easier time doing it even though they are both listed as 600 on the PI. FM3 has issues when you do drive train swaps but it still works as a guideline nonetheless.

 

[sinbad]

Obviously you are missing the point, PP will never give you two different cars that are perfectly evenly matched, it never happens in real life. In fact the only time cars are remotely close to each other in performance is in probably F1, even that isn't everyone driving the same car. As proof with RedBull mud stomping all the other teams with their insanely quick cars. Cars should be relatively close to one another, but in fact there are differences that change how much better one can perform even if you set everything to come within a micron of accuracy in both vehicles.

Get over it, and understand within reality the things you guys are asking doesn't happen so why one earth would PD even attempt to do so? Remember that their game engine does calculate performance pretty well and a car is a sum of it's parts so taking all the variables and expecting it to match the other set of variables from another car plus adding in the fact that you can't drive both cars the exact same way. Get real, PP is just a guideline, much more useable than HP and Weight limits. Use your brain and test cars you aren't sure about, I don't care how much you tune a '70 Charger it will never out strip a Viper, even if you detuned the Viper to match the Charger. There are just things that no system on earth can calculate accurately and create completely identical cars, especially performance wise. Real life has other variables including parts not working perfectly all the time, even more variables to consider. GT5 has enough variables as well to keep the cars true to life and not have cars magically being able to run with other cars when in reality that would never happen. Some cars can be tuned to run as well as another car, but they will never be equal....that doesn't exist in this reality.

PP is just a number figure given to grade the overall performance of your car, as I said before it does not have a limit for each category in which it grades the car just like the one in FM3. Some cars can have identical PI like say the S7 and the R33 Skyline both tuned, you'll be hard pressed to beat the R33 lap times using the S7. You would have to drive the S7 harder to match the times. Using the F1LM you would post faster times than the S7 and have an easier time doing it even though they are both listed as 600 on the PI. FM3 has issues when you do drive train swaps but it still works as a guideline nonetheless.

@the blue part. Well, yes a tuned '70 Charger could be made to lap faster than a stock Dodge Viper. What you're apparently contending is that there should be an advantage for the Viper even if the PP are identical, which makes no sense (imo), and given that it's a pretty obvious example of old-car versus new-car, surely PP could also account for the age of the car somehow (given that older cars typically have skinnier tyres for one thing), and reduce its PP to a more accurate rating.

If 2 cars cannot be matched (like a Honda Beat and McLaren F1) then for their PPs to match would be ridiculous. So if the Viper and the Charger in your example are both tuned to the same PP, then is it not equally daft if one is clearly faster than the other?

Nobody is arguing that everything should be able to go as fast as everything else, nor that PP should be accurate to within a tenth of a second, only that PP should not go up as high on heavily modified normal road cars and particularly older cars, because as it is less modified and detuned high-performance modern cars typically have an obvious advantage at any given PP.

It could also give a different rating for different tyre types quite easily. Relative Comfort Tyre ratings would be different compared with Racing Soft tyre ratings for different drive-types, for example. 4wd cars would rate higher on Comforts compared with their 2wd competitors, and the difference would increase as bhp increased to account for the lack of traction.

It really doesn't have to be anywhere near as complicated as people are making out, but it could be a lot better.

 

[sinbad]

What's genuinely funny is your gullible and picky attitude towards this matter considering that it is suppose to be an "approximation". And no it doesn't need improving because improving it won't make a difference. It's either you're disillusioned with the game and reality, or forget about how is driving the car.

I'm not being picky, just discussing what I see as basic shortcomings, and unless this whole thread is a joke, I'm not being gullible either.

Why is there this resistance to criticism?!

It's like when SEAT were pleading with WTCC not to adjust their turbo-boost pressure to account for their straight-line advantage and denying it exists, despite it being obvious and clear for all to see.