- 6,293
- Canada
Petition to change the rules for digitally delivered goods in the Consumer Rights Act
- Thread starter mattikake
- 117 comments
- 7,060 views
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Voting against not because of the cause but because of the persona behind it, out of spite. That's using your noggin...
H.L. Mencken - "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- 6,515
- Southampton
- RacingAtHome
Surely other gamers would have had the same experience elsewhere and it would relate far better in that forum. It affects a whole industry. Not a single game.
Well, the regulation would affect the whole industry.
I agree with the petition system. There are some fantastic petitions that just don't get the support I'd like. I just personally disagree with your petition which is why I didn't sign it and those that did, did.
Regarding the bold. I assume you're calling those who disagree with you ignorant and weak? Alright. Fine. I'm ignorant and weak and will be on many topics. However, I'd be informed and strong on others because I'd agree with you...
His point is that making a petition about your grievances with one game is ridiculous. It's nothing about accepting the status quo. Having a look at the recent posts you've made, you're calling everyone else sheep for disagreeing with you.
Ok, fair enough. I must have missed that. Looks like it's been moved now. Good.
Damn. There are a lot of SMS employees on this forum. I haven't been paid yet.
Joey D
Premium
- 47,510
- Lakes of the North, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
- 6,515
- Southampton
- RacingAtHome
Looks like it's been moved and the title changed. Good. Honestly, I'd rather the previous one be locked and the new one started fresh so it can be focused on the industry as a whole.
- 87,575
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Well, this thread deserves a different forum, a far more broad title and far fewer idiotic, inflammatory posts across the board.
The fact is that buyers who purchase digitally delivered goods are not afforded the same protection under the Consumer Rights Acts in the UK as those who buy physical media. There is no 14-day cooling off period, for example - and while that's appropriate for ebooks and music (buyers could simply purchase and change their mind for a refund, but they still have the download), it's not wholly appropriate for modern games for which you're simply buying a licence which can be revoked.
They are still in the CRA though, and that means that buyers are entitled to a refund if the content isn't:
* Of satisfactory quality
* Fit for a particular purpose
* As described by the seller
It's also not accurate to say that the developers don't have to support it. If the game doesn't meet one or more of the critera, the retailer has one chance to repair or replace the goods before you can claim a refund. Again, under the terms of the CRA, you may still be entitled to a refund if:
* The cost of the repair or replacement is disproportionate to the value of the digital content
* Repair or replacement is impossible
* Repair or replacement would be significantly inconvenient
* Repair would take unreasonably long
That means that, in this case, if you felt "Racing Game X" was not of satisfactory quality OR not fit for purpose OR not as described by the seller, the seller has one opportunity (a patch, delivered by the makers of "Racing Game X") to rectify it - unless it would cost too much, be inconvenient or, most relevantly, take too long.
If the repair is unsuccessful (the game remains one or more of poor quality, not fit for purpose, or not as described) you are also entitled to a refund, or a price reduction if you wish to keep the product.
That said, it would be appropriate to include digitally delivered games in the CRA alongside their physical brethren, and give you the same 14-day return guarantee, simply because they're identical products (and I'm not sure how doing so would make games studios stop trying to make good, functional games).
That rather makes the fundamental issue at the heart of the petition appropriate, whether it's been arrived at because the user has had enough of this game, that game or the other game, and however appropriate you think their response to that game is.
The fact is that buyers who purchase digitally delivered goods are not afforded the same protection under the Consumer Rights Acts in the UK as those who buy physical media. There is no 14-day cooling off period, for example - and while that's appropriate for ebooks and music (buyers could simply purchase and change their mind for a refund, but they still have the download), it's not wholly appropriate for modern games for which you're simply buying a licence which can be revoked.
They are still in the CRA though, and that means that buyers are entitled to a refund if the content isn't:
* Of satisfactory quality
* Fit for a particular purpose
* As described by the seller
It's also not accurate to say that the developers don't have to support it. If the game doesn't meet one or more of the critera, the retailer has one chance to repair or replace the goods before you can claim a refund. Again, under the terms of the CRA, you may still be entitled to a refund if:
* The cost of the repair or replacement is disproportionate to the value of the digital content
* Repair or replacement is impossible
* Repair or replacement would be significantly inconvenient
* Repair would take unreasonably long
That means that, in this case, if you felt "Racing Game X" was not of satisfactory quality OR not fit for purpose OR not as described by the seller, the seller has one opportunity (a patch, delivered by the makers of "Racing Game X") to rectify it - unless it would cost too much, be inconvenient or, most relevantly, take too long.
If the repair is unsuccessful (the game remains one or more of poor quality, not fit for purpose, or not as described) you are also entitled to a refund, or a price reduction if you wish to keep the product.
That said, it would be appropriate to include digitally delivered games in the CRA alongside their physical brethren, and give you the same 14-day return guarantee, simply because they're identical products (and I'm not sure how doing so would make games studios stop trying to make good, functional games).
That rather makes the fundamental issue at the heart of the petition appropriate, whether it's been arrived at because the user has had enough of this game, that game or the other game, and however appropriate you think their response to that game is.
Sorry. Must apologise for that. It wasn't a personal attack in the way you thought. The context of it was missed and it was a general statement. I'm not in it to resort to personal attacks.
I wasn't saying if you disagree with me your are ignorant and weak, but if you don't understand what the legislation is that you're against and how it works, then that would be ignorant. [weakness being another requirement of the masses] That's ok. We all start out ignorant in the beginning (NB: not stupid. You're only arguably stupid if you can't understand that which cures your ignorance). So DSR's/CCR's are not intended to instigate legal cases, indeed it is there to stop legal cases. It's just a means to return a remotely purchased product in 14 days without argument or recourse from the seller. This is mainly because you can't try before you buy. There's only a legal case if a seller willfully ignores the regulation. There's not much more to it than that.
Thanks.
But it should be the Consumer Contracts Regulations, not the Consumer Rights Act per se. This has replaced the Distance Selling Regulations. It needs a rewording basically on my part as the last time I worked in sales it was the DSR's but I've since discovered it's now the CCR's.
This wouldn't change the meaning of the petition but just makes it up-to-date.
I've asked the government petitions board if it needs to be reworded, if it's fine as it is or if it needs to be pulled and replaced with correct wording. I'll probably get an answer tomorrow.
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- 6,515
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- RacingAtHome
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- Johnnypenso
- 592
- United States
- Sentry87
Head of development team interacts with the community on a regular bases and gets spit on, yet other development teams can't ever be bothered. Justice is blind
Understand where Ian is coming from, you create this thread, single out his game. Yet there are so many others that can stand extra development time.
Understand where Ian is coming from, you create this thread, single out his game. Yet there are so many others that can stand extra development time.
- 13,908
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Garbage is a pretty big claim. The worst I've seen seems to be "a handful of bugs that happen to be in exactly the places that bother me the most, and some design decisions I don't agree with.
Would you care to be more specific?
Look, if you want to make a petition for a widespread problem using pCARS 2 as a headline example then that's fine, but it'd be quite good if you at least provided some more examples of the wider problem. Names of other games would help, because if this really is a case where there are a dozen games that fall into this category every month then that's a bit different to if there's only one (and one that you haven't really been able to make that strong a case for.)
You said this earlier. I asked you then to name some, but you may have missed it in replying to Ian. I'd request that you do so now, both so that we can judge what you deem to be a broken game and to evaluate the scale of the problem.
- 8,450
- Rockay City
If it doesn't work for him, it doesn't work for him. He should be able to get a refund IMO (and he could have if on PC, because Steam, so curious why he didn't if it's that bad for him). But the experience of a few don't mean anything for the population of a particular game as a whole. So claiming the game is garbage when it in fact works for most is like saying all Fords are **** because you got a Monday-morning model (and yes, that happens too). The reviews and the comments on websites/metacritic, etc. would reflect this if it were a prevalent issue. And they don't. This of course applies to any game, not just the examples in here.
I've had my fair share of games that worked perfectly for others and not for me (or just weren't my thing). Got them all refunded (usually via Steam). I think it's fair to ask that at least the same grace period (2 hours of actual play, 14 day period) is applied to any other online store (so also Origin, Uplay, PS4, XB, etx.). People buying in the online stores from Sony and MS are already getting shafted with inflated pricing and issues returning/refunding are another nail in the coffin so to speak.
I think the Steam way is actually pretty good and mirrors pretty much what happens with offline goods. Can't buy a pair of running shoes online, run half a marathon on them and then return them; they'll be a used product. You can try them on and walk around the house a bit and then return it as new if you didn't like it (doesn't even have to be broken).
I know they exist because you can google things like bugged releases and worst release of x platform x year.
e.g. a quick search leads to these articles, forget having to find this out for myself.
http://www.denofgeek.com/games/bugged-videogames/33602/have-bugged-videogames-now-become-the-norm
https://www.engadget.com/2014/11/24/broken-video-games/
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/8-games-with-completely-broken-releases
etc.
I'll have to spend a lot of my time to research that to generate a list because my own experiences are only of PC2. I have 3 games for my PS4 - PC1, PC2 and Elite Dangerous. Again why I initially posted in the PC2 forum. IMO that doesn't change the relevance of the purpose that you cannot pirate games any more from digital download stores because of the digital signature system and subscriptions to the PSN, so there is no reason why games should continue be excluded from the DSR's/CCR's.
I.e. I don't need to have have to justify the petition to anyone else. In fact I don't even have to justify the petition, period. I could've legitimately and legally put that up with no background reason whatsoever. Other people can make the judgement for themselves based on their own experiences and decide to sign it or not.
It actually works both ways. It's meant to be fair to the retailer as well as the consumer.
You could try a half marathon in the trainers, but you would have to return them in the original packaging and in new condition so that they can be fairly resold by the retailer, and by notifying them of that in 14 days. That would be hard after a half marathon of course, but you should be able to go for a short run in them to make sure they don't do critical things like pinch or make the arch of your foot ache etc. more than just walk around the house. In theory.
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
And I was only stating that individuals subjective opinions of what is "game-breaking" doesn't matter because only what the law considers game-breaking counts. As has since been illustrated in this thread, people toss the term "game-breaking" around for anything that slightly inconveniences them which does not qualify as a broken game.
And I don't necessarily disagree with your notions, I just think it's a losing battle and a waste of time to get so worked up over a simple video game(s). If you were to put this effort into helping homeless people, feeding hungry people, or stopping the destruction of our planet, those are causes that would be worth the time and effort. But causing a big stink because a video game doesn't meet your expectations? Nah.
There's no worthwhile relevance to this paragraph other than to attempt to discredit me. I shouldn't even be responding. What are you doing for those problems?
We do what is relevant to us and what we know. This is an easy fix. The regs already exist. All that needs to be done is adding digital download video games to it. Saving the world are much larger and more complex issues - mostly solved by replacing or completely reworking capitalism. That isn't happening with a petition!
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
Nope, just putting it in perspective, some things are worth raising a fuss over, some aren't. Of course we all want games to be complete and functional at release but those days are gone and there's nothing we can do about it, not worth being bothered about.
I donate to various charities and do some volunteer work for the local food bank, as well as recycling in my household and at my work.
Anyway, I'm out, good luck with your crusade. 👍
- 132
- Brazil
There are two distinct sides and both sides have their positives and negatives, like all things in life, including here. I am enjoying this discussion a lot because I have learned to filter what is useful. I can only thank all the people here and in all other topics and forums for the contradictory opinions but in the end, they converge to the same point. Guys, let's stay calm and respect, no one here is more or less than the other, we are just people with different opinions.
obs: any idea of when the DLC release will happen and what can we expect in the next PATCH?
obs: any idea of when the DLC release will happen and what can we expect in the next PATCH?
- 132
- Brazil
Any suggestion? It's good, it's bad, is it both?
http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/motorsport-manager-endurance-dlc-released.143147/
a good suggestion, perhaps. Be yourself.
https://discordapp.com/invite/projectcarsgame
http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/motorsport-manager-endurance-dlc-released.143147/
a good suggestion, perhaps. Be yourself.
https://discordapp.com/invite/projectcarsgame
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Joey D
Premium
- 47,510
- Lakes of the North, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
It crashes frequently and it never seems to want to connect when I fancy trying an online race. The controller configurations are horrendous too and I suspect the game was never designed to be used with anything other than a wheel.
Also, some of the design choices made in the game were puzzling, such as making snow races in the career mode with anything other than rally cars. I know it's fixed now, but it really killed the game for me when it was first released since I found those races to be unplayable.
It's obviously only my view on the game since it seems like several people are enjoying it.
I'm unable to get a refund, I played the game too long on Steam trying to get it to function. It was my mistake, but at the same time I wanted to play the game and wanted to make an effort to at least get it working properly.
And a bad experience tends to taint my view of something, although I think that's true for most people. If you had one bad Ford, chances are you'll never look at them the same even if they are objectively good vehicles. Same goes for PC2. I'm having a bad experience and therefore my view of the game is more negative than if it would have worked out of the box.
I'll probably shelf it for a couple of months and then reinstall it to see if it's gotten any better for me.
- 154
- Canada
- DULMAGE5
- 13,908
- Adelaide
- Neomone
OK, so here's where my problem with your position starts. You're presenting this as an ongoing problem for the gaming community and claiming to use PC2 as an exemplar. But you don't know if it's an ongoing problem for the gaming community; you only have three games and you can't make a basic list of very buggy releases without telling me to google it for myself. Your three articles all come from 2014, a year that had more than it's share of buggy games and poor releases, but what about since then? Is it still a problem?
Essentially, you've failed to establish any factual basis for your claim that this is a problem plaguing the gaming industry. It may be. If so, please show how.
However, since you haven't got that information already top hand it's immediately clear that you've made the idea to pursue a law change that would affect the entire gaming industry solely on the back of your experience with one game. And attempted to sell us all on the idea that you were doing it for the greater good. That's pretty disingenuous, and frankly doesn't convince me in the slightest that there's a real systemic issue here.
Here's the next problem. In walled gardens like PSN and XBL piracy is largely not a problem (until the consoles get cracked again). But you're suggesting making law for all digital marketplaces. Steam. GOG. Origin. UPlay. Hell, even stuff like G2A and friends, may they burn in hell. Not all digital marketplaces have or can have that sort of control over the user and their hardware. Even Steam doesn't really offer any protection above what DRM the publishers attach themselves.
So yes, actually, you can pirate from digital download stores, just not the one that you use. Yet.
Add into this the nature of video games that don't show physical wear on use (and so are always returnable if you're applying the "no damage" criteria"), yet many are easy to consume entirely within two weeks. Personally, I'm a fan of Steams 2hour/14day policy, but I can see why some retailers wouldn't want to do it.
And then the final problem. This isn't the developers and publishers like you've been claiming. This is the storefronts. In your rage against the game and your desperation to find some ammunition to attack SMS with, you've got entirely the wrong target. You blame SMS and Bandai, but they're offering this refund policy on Steam. Why? Because it's Steam's refund policy, and SMS and Bandai have nothing to do with it. Likewise, PSN, XBL and any other retailer is welcome to offer their own refund policies with any terms they like.
So really, your beef is with electronic storefronts. And probably irl ones too, given that they often won't accept returns of physical sales of software if it's unsealed.
This is absolutely true.
However, your petition lives or dies on you getting other people to agree with your point of view. If you don't justify it, then nobody will sign it. Given that you've got 9991 signatures to go before the government even responds and 99991 to get them to debate it, I'd suggest that it might be in your interest to start putting together a slightly stronger and more persuasive argument.
P.S. If anyone ever asks you to name a game that was actually broken at release, you could do worse than saying Arkham Knight on PC. That was so bad that they actually ended up recalling it and giving everyone a refund. Now that was a broken game.
Honestly, you could make a fairly strong argument that GTS and it's online only saving is at least as broken as PC2. And really, I don't think either of those games are broken in the unplayable sense. They're just staggeringly inconvenient if you happen to play in a fashion that is strongly affected by their particular flaws.
- 132
- Brazil
I had no idea that there was a meaning for reasoning error, thanks for the info.
- 154
- Canada
- DULMAGE5
Np, there are a LOT of fallacies in this thread... although some don't detract from their arguments... many do and its frustrating seeing in a good debate.
Apparently so.
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Bethe...-the-resources-to-identify-and-fix-this-stuff
https://nerdist.com/7-craziest-video-game-fails-of-2016/
http://www.gamezone.com/reviews/rev...e-biggest-disappointments-of-2017-so-far-k5ee
https://www.polygon.com/2017/10/7/16441196/golf-story-bug-glitch-nintendo-switch
I'm only digging around for a few minutes here on the first page or 2 of a google search that is returned 368,000 hits. Of course these won't all be the subject matter an not all referring to PS an XB titles, but it's more than plenty to start with. The more I dig the more I will find and these are only games which caused enough uproar to feature articles. Devling into forums... like say, one like this... and there will no doubt be many more.
You won't find many "worst releases of 2017" yet until the year is over.
I predict the in future it isn't going to magically get better by itself because nothing is motivating the industry to do so. It won;t get better by hope, by prayer and by sticking your head in the sand.
There's even more evidence that I could even have imagined. I could dig more. I simply don't have to. You've failed to prove that there isn't a problem. And it seems the more you challenge me to dig, the more I will find.
Exploitation, once discovered it can be done, it will always increase until something stops it. Knowing how the world works is all you really need.
No just digital downloads with digital signature systems - PSN and XB Live.
Petition;
"This refers to PS4 and XBox digital download stores. Copying software (piracy) was once a problem but with subscriptions to gaming networks and digital signatures this is no longer possible, nor is it possible to use the games without these subscriptions."
You seem so intent on disproving the need that you're simply not listening/reading.
How does that fundamentalist argument always go? Oh yes, ignore the facts, invent some others, then use those in an attempt to win an argument that never existed.
No I'm not (I'm starting to feel like Nigel Farage being attacked by an ill-informed news anchor).
Petition;
"This refers to PS4 and XBox digital download stores. Copying software (piracy) was once a problem but with subscriptions to gaming networks and digital signatures this is no longer possible, nor is it possible to use the games without these subscriptions."
The publishers are certainly the problem and developers contribute because they have little say in the matter. The petition targets sales not development. DSR's/CCR's affect sales not development.
Petition;
"This refers to PS4 and XBox digital download stores. Copying software (piracy) was once a problem but with subscriptions to gaming networks and digital signatures this is no longer possible, nor is it possible to use the games without these subscriptions."
Who's in a rage? I've got exactly the right target in exactly the right way. The knock-on effects will be the same that arguably saved the e-commerce industry at the end of the 90's. It will motivate better standards. It has proven so everywhere else.
Which is obviously why you're trying to attack the solidity of it. Really it was just an idea. If it happens it happens. If not, don't buy PC3 until it's been out at least a few months!
Quit before you get even further behind.
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- 4,722
- United Kingdom
Don't you need to raise awareness if you want to improve things for everyone? A national newspaper story could get you the numbers you need for a successful petition.
What story would you be selling to this paper? Is there an article's worth of information on the subject that you're keeping from us?
That would put the devs into a seriously misdirecting situation and all kinds of things could result. I'm guessing they still have backing and funding from the publisher who would also be in a misdirected. I don't want any of that. I just want them to fix the game and deliver on what was promised/hyped. I want the gaming industry to improve their standards in the same way everyone else has to.
Basically though advertising standards have been and still are, being breached. But because Bandai Namco are a US company they cannot be investigated by the UK's Advertising Standards Agency even though they agree there would be a case in the UK. The story would be around how I have been bounced around from Citizens Advice Bureau to Trading Standards then to the ASA, to the US Dept of Consumer Affairs to the US Dept of Justice. All the bureaucracy conveniently keeping the publisher safe. Papers love to seize on one person's struggle against the world. Abuse of release dates, pre-orders, admitted lack of testing, rushed ports to console etc. and I believe the root cause is of all that is due to the difficulty in the right to fair refunds - CCRs. Which is the fairer and more explicit angle I took and the people can decide not the MSM. I think it would be a tenuous, unfair and self-defeating story, even though there is a story to be told.
It would increase publicity but then how many gamers read newpapers? Gamers often seek forums and social media for help.
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