PMC 2.0 rules: Regarding enlarging of the rims

[Bram Turismo]

I thought it would be better for this discussion to have its own topic so Nuno (NTX) doesn't have to cope with the off-topic in his Tournaments thread 👍

Recently, I entered a shot in the Tournaments, a grey R34 GT-R Skyline at New York. Lots of people thought I had enlarged the rims, yet I did not. This brings me to the fact that this has not been discussed before. Thanks to SlipZ for bringing that up 👍

Basically, there has never been stated that one was not allowed to enlarged the rims on his/hers photo. Now, there is a rule which says this:

"You can use layers for overlay and layer adjustments, but not to alter the geometry and original subject matter of the picture: like adding stickers and body kits, and objects that are not in the original image."

On its turn, this leads me to another rule:

"Resize" (PMC 2.0 rule, 2nd rule)

Now we can use anything to resize our image which leads that one can resize parts of the car and/or background. This is, however, not stated if one is allowed to resize parts or only the full image for resizing.

With this said, I'll be referring to a technique: The copy/paste wheel blur technique, a technique which is being used by nearly everybody, uses parts from two other pictures outside the original image one will be working on. There is never stated that this technique is not allowed, nor has anyone thought about it, yet it clearly brakes this rule:

"You can use layers for overlay and layer adjustments, but not to alter the geometry and original subject matter of the picture: like adding stickers and body kits, and objects that are not in the original image."

With this, I'd like to open a discussion on these two things:

- Shall one be allowed to enlarge the rims of a car when the PMC 2.0 rules are applied?
- Shall the copy/paste wheel blur technique be allowed for further use within the PMC 2.0 rules?

I think we definitly have to think about this, while discussing the enlarging earlier, we totally forgot the technique we use very much and yet in fact is against the rules. I'm not saying everyone uses it but if you manage to get those wheel blurs without this technique, you must be damn good!

With this, I'd also like to say that my entry in Round III, Tournament III, hosted by jacoja07, contained enlarged rims.

 

[Danger Orange]

I think it should be allowed, like you said, everybody does the copy/paste wheel blur, & thats because you can make much sharper & cleaner shots that you normally couldnt because the photomode engine cant comprehend tracking (the camera moving at the same speed as the subject) so if you want a clean motion shot in close quarters (NY, Seattle, Citta di aria) its almost a requirement for a good shot.. Plus if the wheels are too big, it just looks dumb... (See also-cash money millionaires) Lets just put it this way, If you could BUY oversized rims in GT4, than everybody would anyways. Right?

 

[alexwrc]

Oh well, if enlarging rims is banned, many other actions should be in my opinion. In fact any 2.0 modifications means modify the original photo, like adding blurs (To rims, backgrounds...) wich aren't in the original one so... what is from the original photo and what not?

I have no objection about the rims enlarging, because is one of the modifications less agressive in the 2.0 comp.

In another hand, my entry has 2 merged photos to generate the blur (GT4 unblurred + blurred one) and I don't know if that is worse than a resized rim.

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Another question is what about pasting Photomode rims to circuit photos to make a static photosession... I have several photos to enter 2.0 competitions with this method, but if it's also benned I won't be able to enter them.

"You can use layers for overlay and layer adjustments, but not to alter the geometry and original subject matter of the picture: like adding stickers and body kits, and objects that are not in the original image."

Rims, combined GT blurs, 3D rims from Photomode... doesn't alter the original geometry for me, because the photo is exactly the same.

Salu2.alexwrc

 

[NTX]

IMO U can do that everytime U want (enlarging rims), its a just small detail, and makes the car looking good:tup:

 

[Beerz]

I'm in favor of rim enlargement being allowed within 2.0 rules, as well as the cut/paste method (refering to wheels only), just as long as the pasted wheels were shot with the same image as the original base photo.

 

[440 CHARGER]

Maybe we should have the poll for this??? But I guess this will probably work fine. As you should know, I am 100% in support of allowing wheels to be enlarged. Of course, there must be limits as to how large we are allowed to go, but I don't think we would have a problem with that. Most of the time, enlarging wheels just a small amount is enough to change the look of a car drastically, for the better of course. So I really think this should be an allowance in the rules.

Also, as a pioneer of the cut/paste method of blurred wheels from two additional shots taken of the same angle, but different focul points..... I am 100% in favor of letting this in too. In my opinion, you are not changing anything in the original image. You are not changing the physical makeup of the image, nor the geometry. You are simply modifying the pixel alignment. It's virtually the same as applying a radial blur, but with better quality (depending on the person performing the edit). It's hard to explain what I am thinking, but it's totally the same thing as just applying a radial blur, just easier.

That's my opinion on the whole ordeal. Some will take it to their advantage, others will not do so well with it. But I don't think it will be a problem, because those who submit edited images that know what they're doing will have much better quality images than those who will abuse the rule and ruin their shots.

👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍
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[Bram Turismo]

Good idea on the poll thing although I cannot edit my post in a way so there is a poll attached to it...

Maybe we should allow rims to be enlarged but not the tyre to prevent rims from "over-enlarging" or something?

 

[Loon]

Click on the thread tools tab on the top of the red bar, it should have an option to let you add a poll.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Click on the thread tools tab on the top of the red bar, it should have an option to let you add a poll.

+Rep, thanks Loon 👍

 

[Loon]

+Rep, thanks Loon 👍

Thanks and no problem.

Even though I don't do it and I'm probably not capable to do it in GIMP, I voted to allow the enlarging of rims. Its a minor detail IMO, I don't think this is what makes or breaks a shot.

And to be honest, I didn't notice that they were a little bigger then usual, not until somebody called it to everyones attention.

So I say keep it.👍

 

[Moglet]

I say it should be allowed, some of the cars look absolutely pathetic because the wheels look lost within the arches.

What would the rules be on pasting road tyres onto photos taken on dirt/snow tracks? I find that that dirt/snow tracks cause the car to be fitted with stupid giant kiddy toy style tyres and it really ruins the look of the vehicle.

 

[Pebb]

I think if you do copy and paste, that takes too much work out of editing and the fun out of it as well in other words Photo Editing needs work involved when editing stuff like the rims with smudge tool and dodge and burn tools.

 

[Funkshen]

I think if you do copy and paste, that takes too much work out of editing and the fun out of it as well in other words Photo Editing needs work involved when editing stuff like the rims with smudge tool and dodge and burn tools.

That is the stupidest reasoning i have heard. Everyone entilted to their own i guess.

Im in favour of both. It is going to be tough to restrict the amount of size added to the wheels, i suppose everyone will have to be reasonable and mature with how they edit. And i dont know why the cut/paste method should even be questioned. Same shot techincally 👍

 

[jgda9rs]

i think we should just do it, i mean, we're already editting a lot of stuff on the photo, i can't really see rim enlargement being such a big deal. i also like alexwrc's suggestion too about copying rims from phototravel or something. i say we go ahead and allow it

edit: i think rim enlargement could add more of a challenge, since how we do it could make or break the photo, even if it's not limited. i think it's just common sense.

 

[JacoJa]

Well in my opinion, editing wheel sizes is like editing any other part of the car. You should not be able to edit an actual object in the picture because it will look better for the car... that’s like editing/reducing the size of a Ford Mustangs roof in order to make it appear more muscular. All objects within a picture should remain the same, unless of cause you are adding effects such as motion blur. I'm pretty sure that was stated in the main rules when the 2.0 competition started.

Copy + Pasting blurred wheels and backgrounds from another photo is perfectly fine (because you are adding un-edited objects from an original photo).

 

[atlop]

Well in my opinion, editing wheel sizes is like editing any other part of the car. You should not be able to edit an actual object in the picture because it will look better for the car... that’s like editing/reducing the size of a Ford Mustangs roof in order to make it appear more muscular. All objects within a picture should remain the same, unless of cause you are adding effects such as motion blur. I'm pretty sure that was stated in the main rules when the 2.0 competition started.

I agree. But if most people want to enlarge wheels it should at least be clearly stated in the rules these are the only parts of the car that you can modify.

Copy + Pasting blurred wheels and backgrounds from another photo is perfectly fine (because you are adding un-edited objects from an original photo).

But here "another photo" means actually the same photo, right? I mean from the same "pause" and same angle, just different focus, shutter time and other in-game adjustments? Because if it's anything other than that then I don't know what the "only the original subject matter" rule means anymore.

But anyway I think you said it well: basically what you can do in 2.0 is to add effects to the photo, and that's it! With the possible exception of enlarging wheels. If it's more than that then there is no difference between the 2.0 comp and the various photoshop comps we have had.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Maybe we should have the poll for this??? But I guess this will probably work fine. As you should know, I am 100% in support of allowing wheels to be enlarged. Of course, there must be limits as to how large we are allowed to go, but I don't think we would have a problem with that. Most of the time, enlarging wheels just a small amount is enough to change the look of a car drastically, for the better of course. So I really think this should be an allowance in the rules.

Also, as a pioneer of the cut/paste method of blurred wheels from two additional shots taken of the same angle, but different focul points..... I am 100% in favor of letting this in too. In my opinion, you are not changing anything in the original image. You are not changing the physical makeup of the image, nor the geometry. You are simply modifying the pixel alignment. It's virtually the same as applying a radial blur, but with better quality (depending on the person performing the edit). It's hard to explain what I am thinking, but it's totally the same thing as just applying a radial blur, just easier.

I hope my tone is clear with this, I'm just offering the other side 440. But your reasoning for allowing it is because... it makes the car look better? By that same token, we should allow further lowering than GT allows, or wing removal, or CF additions. Also, the problem with having a limit on the size change allowed is, who's going to police it? Who's idea of "acceptable" will be used as a guideline?

As for the cut/paste method; I have just begun using it, because to me, it was always clearly against the rules but it seems nobody else seemed to care. We are supposed to use a single image from GT4, not multiple ones. Yes, I understand that it is from the same exact time in a replay, but it is still numerous shots that would never be possible in real life. If cut/paste is so acceptable, should I be allowed to do panoramas? Or even TT/GT shots? Yes, it's going to the extreme, but we do have to draw a line somewhere.

Maybe we should allow rims to be enlarged but not the tyre to prevent rims from "over-enlarging" or something?

If we are going to allow rim enlargement, this is a bad way to go about it. Enlarging rims without enlarging tires will make the profile of the tire rediculously low, and it'll ruin the look you're going for (unless we're talking about the dirt tire question Mog posed).

I say it should be allowed, some of the cars look absolutely pathetic because the wheels look lost within the arches.

What would the rules be on pasting road tyres onto photos taken on dirt/snow tracks? I find that that dirt/snow tracks cause the car to be fitted with stupid giant kiddy toy style tyres and it really ruins the look of the vehicle.

Heh, I do know what you're talking about here Mog, and that is good reasoning for being allowed. I just feel that stretching to include this really moves 2.0 past the "further modifications" realm and more into the PS comp and allowing nearly anything.

i think we should just do it, i mean, we're already editting a lot of stuff on the photo, i can't really see rim enlargement being such a big deal. i also like alexwrc's suggestion too about copying rims from phototravel or something. i say we go ahead and allow it

edit: i think rim enlargement could add more of a challenge, since how we do it could make or break the photo, even if it's not limited. i think it's just common sense.

Alex' idea is a great one, but again, same thing I said about Mog's idea. We already run into the problem in 2.0 of "the big names" having an advantage in the votes because of their photoshop capabilities. Do we want to allow further creative possibilities at the extent of less competition? I wouldn't want to alienate people who are afraid to enter because they aren't Photoshop masters. However, I do agree with that last comment about rim enlargement; if we go ahead with it, it sure as hell shouldn't be limited.

Well in my opinion, editing wheel sizes is like editing any other part of the car. You should not be able to edit an actual object in the picture because it will look better for the car... that’s like editing/reducing the size of a Ford Mustangs roof in order to make it appear more muscular. All objects within a picture should remain the same, unless of cause you are adding effects such as motion blur. I'm pretty sure that was stated in the main rules when the 2.0 competition started.

Copy + Pasting blurred wheels and backgrounds from another photo is perfectly fine (because you are adding un-edited objects from an original photo).

Jacoja nails it. If we're changing wheel size, why can't I change other sizes within the picture? Why can't I turn my car into a 2-door from 4? I'm just using the smudge tool... see, it can become quite a headache. And with that wording about the Cut/Paste method, it really does allow for further interpretation. Again, I bring up the TT/GT combos .
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Also, I must not have quoted it because it's in the other thread, but I'm going to agree with 440 about the enlargement in the Skyline picture. He's done plenty of Skyline shots, and they've never been that large. And yes, some rims in the Special section do look larger, but like I said, a look at the stock picture would clear things right up. And sorry if I seem like a pessimist, or maybe even a dick; Ultra/Bram/Turismo, you were banned before for lying about OLR, so I do find it ultra convenient that no stock photo is available. Then again, I doubt most people are obsessive-compulsive as me, and save all their stock images .
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So, my opinion is that if you want wheels enlarged, leave it to your gallery. We have the contests for competition, not photoshop willy-waving. There's no way you can tell me enlarging rims is the make or break of a shot, so it's just not needed. The galleries are there to show off our creativeness with no limits, and with the current abundance of contests, we don't need further overlap with the PS one and 2.0. We don't want the comp board looking like GM's current car lineup! I've stuck with the wheel blur method up until now because it still works well enough, even if the brakes/calipers are blurred (it's a tiny detail). That still did leave the wheels in their same size/shape, and didn't require multiple images to do it. I suppose I'm up for the cut/paste method staying in the comps, but I will definitely be linking to it directly each week to help new people.

As for the tourney, the final decision lies in NTX' hands. I've said my .02.

 

[Tangled Web]

Great post Slip, I agree with what you said. +rep for that one.
I don't think enlarging wheels should be allowed, because like you siad it brings up other issues. I do like using the copy/paste method, especially for certain angles. I wouldn't mind if it was not allowed, I have done a few wheel blurs and they are not too difficult.

 

[jgda9rs]

i agree with what slip and drift says. my only problem is, we all know that wheel enlargements are not allowed at the moment, and that there are rules to be followed. if so, how come we're seeing entries that bend the rules making the polls ? mind u it's probably not the first time this has happened.

 

[Moglet]

Copy + Pasting blurred wheels and backgrounds from another photo is perfectly fine (because you are adding un-edited objects from an original photo).

What about copying and pasting blurred wheels from a different car with larger wheels onto your original shot? That is, technically, adding an un edited object from an original photo.

 

[440 CHARGER]

Jacoja nails it. If we're changing wheel size, why can't I change other sizes within the picture? Why can't I turn my car into a 2-door from 4? I'm just using the smudge tool... see, it can become quite a headache. And with that wording about the Cut/Paste method, it really does allow for further interpretation. Again, I bring up the TT/GT combos .

I really disagree firmly with that comment. And of course, I am not trying to egg anything on here, just giving my opinion, but... It's only going to become a headache if you turn it into a headache. Nobody is going to be able to smudge a 2 door into a 4 door and get away with it. (I know you are just making a point there, but it's degrading the issue irrationaly)

And really, you have to realize what we are talking about here. This is not a full on Photoshop competition for one. It has specific rules as to what you are allowed to do. Perhaps there are some rules that aren't the most clear, but that can easily be fixed, and is really not the issue right now.

You also must realize that this is a video game. The textures and and geometry aren't always that great, and a lot of times, the wheels just stink. Polyphony digital got the wheel size option wrong on the majority of the cars in my opinion. They seem a bit dis-proportional and get all out of wack at times depending on the blur and angle. The blurs are usually, depending on the kind of angle you want, pathetic. It's nearly impossible to get good blurs sometimes. That's why we integraded a 2.0 competition so that we can step up these images a bit more than we could with the regular Photomode competition. We want to improve upon what GT4 gave us. We allow wheel blurs and scenery blurs and adjustments of color and brightness and allow to add softness or sharpness to make the image look how we want it to. So tell me why, in perspective, is wheel enlargment any different from adding scenery, background, and wheel blurs. Why is taking your crappy, unblurred wheels and your unblurred background and blurring them to the way you want them too look any different from bumping up the size of them a little. Why spend all the time doing all that work just to put it back practically the way it was. Why even modify it at all. Why not just enter in the PMC??? Because we are trying to improve upon what GT4 gave us in the first place. We want our cars and our scenes and our images to have a realistic, or more colorful, or more attractive look than GT4 could have ever given us. We are trying to acheive that little extra something that sets it apart from the rest. Why let GT4 hold you back. I just think that if we are allowed to blur the wheels to start with to fit in the scene, we should be allowed modify them to fit the car too. It's all still Photoshop work. It's to make the shot look better, in how we deem effective.

I know that the competition is still going to be fun with or without it. It has been for a long time now. I really enjoy making artwork out of GT4 images. It's fun to put your own shots up against others from all over the world to see just how good you can be. IT'S FUN! But I think it would be even more fun and we would see more greater shots and the competition would be higher if we allowed a simple modification of wheel enlargment.

Thanks! Have a nice day!

Edit: Oh, and I want to add something about this too:

As for the cut/paste method; I have just begun using it, because to me, it was always clearly against the rules but it seems nobody else seemed to care. We are supposed to use a single image from GT4, not multiple ones. Yes, I understand that it is from the same exact time in a replay, but it is still numerous shots that would never be possible in real life. If cut/paste is so acceptable, should I be allowed to do panoramas? Or even TT/GT shots? Yes, it's going to the extreme, but we do have to draw a line somewhere.

It was never against the rules. And why would it be against the rules? If that is against the rules, then radial blurring wheels and backgrounds should for sure be against the rules. You say it would never be possible in real life... Are you saying an image could never be acheived like that in real life, or that you could never take 3 shots in real life? "If cut/paste is so acceptable, should I be allowed to do panoramas? Or even TT/GT shots?" That is just a stupid comment. Come on Slip. Why are you so "Con" on this for? I don't understand. You are a great picture taker and you always come up with great stuff. I am not trying to get into a match here, but it seems like you want this to be like PMC rules, (I know you don't, but for a reference) and you are always against comming up with new ideas. Are you afraid that this competition is going to get ruined?

 

[sejtur]

This is actually a very big issue, never wouldve thought that the discussion would become this big. But, like, blurring things changes the geometry right? And in the rules it says you can do alot of things but not that. But, it says you can blur. Aint that a bit contradicting? I don't really care if someone enlarges his rims. It can look better but sometimes worse, so it's an own risk. I say just allow blurring, enlarging rims and the cut/paste method (keeping in mind that it's not used for something else than rims) and get this over with. 440 and Slip and Jacoja all have good points. But 440 has been enlarging his wheels for a pretty long time I think, and nothing bad had happened to the comp...

If I'm wrong, correct me.

 

[Moglet]

I say loosen the rules even more. Allow any editing we want as long as it doesn't alter any of the following;

-Colour of the paint on the car
-Shape of the car
-Location of the car
-Layout of panels (E.g. 3/5 door)
-Layout/shape of background

This way we can edit basically to our own abilities but the same sort of rules apply. Nothing too mental. As it stands, using paths isn't listed on the rules but some people do it, I'm sure of it!

But then again that's probably just me being a bit mental.

 

[alexwrc]

The interpretation of the rules can be pretty subjective, yup. As I'm totally agree with Setjur, I think the Mog's proposal is much more clear than the standard rules for the 2.0 comp:tup:

Salu2.alexwrc

 

[jgda9rs]

i have the same thoughts as alex.

 

[Snyp]

^^Agreed^^

 

[sejtur]

I say loosen the rules even more. Allow any editing we want as long as it doesn't alter any of the following;

-Colour of the paint on the car
-Shape of the car
-Location of the car
-Layout of panels (E.g. 3/5 door)
-Layout/shape of background

This way we can edit basically to our own abilities but the same sort of rules apply. Nothing too mental. As it stands, using paths isn't listed on the rules but some people do it, I'm sure of it!

But then again that's probably just me being a bit mental.

No you're not mental. If you think changing the color of the car is mental then me and Jacoja (and maybe a few others) are mental.

Btw what are paths exactly?

 

[Bram Turismo]

Paths is a tool which allows you to place anchers on your image. Some people use it instead of the polyg. lasso tool like in GIMP. You can then create a selection out of the path you've created or do other things with it. sometimes, a path is more accurate.

 

[sejtur]

Thx Bram. 👍

 

[franz]

I use path for long time to make selection
but it is also useful when I want to redraw door/hood lines
smudge to perfection is too much work for me
maybe we should start a new competition called PMC3.0 j/k