Pokémon Games Discussion Thread (Gotta Discuss 'Em All!)

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

70% Yes, it can miss but it is likely to hit in which case Dragonite is screwed.

It's a worthwhile risk, I've done it plenty. If it was ice beam or something then I could see the worry. 70% isn't a good accuracy rate, never has been.

 

[Com Fox]

It's a worthwhile risk, I've done it plenty. If it was ice beam or something then I could see the worry. 70% isn't a good accuracy rate, never has been.

I agree but it's still more than 50%, it should be taken with caution.

 

[Obelisk]

I agree but it's still more than 50%, it should be taken with caution.

Stone Edge and Focus Blast have a habit of missing at critical times in the player's hands. What's keeping the AI from never missing?

 

[Com Fox]

Stone Edge and Focus Blast have a habit of missing at critical times in the player's hands. What's keeping the AI from never missing?

Not saying it can't miss, it can but saying it'll likely miss is silly since it has a 30% chance of missing is just silly

That's why relying on an Electric move for Blastoise while it can use Blizzard saying "it'll just miss" is ridiculous since it's more likely to hit than miss and if it does hit the entire plan is ruined. I'd day skip having Dragonite focusing on Blastoise and use someone else who isn't weak to Ice and Water.

 

[Obelisk]

Not saying it can't miss, it can but saying it'll likely miss is silly since it has a 30% chance of missing is just silly

That's why relying on an Electric move for Blastoise while it can use Blizzard saying "it'll just miss" is ridiculous since it's more likely to hit than miss and if it does hit the entire plan is ruined. I'd day skip having Dragonite focusing on Blastoise and use someone else who isn't weak to Ice and Water.

He could run a Raichu if he wants to be salty about it.

Also, no one noticed my PBR post on the last page.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Not saying it can't miss, it can but saying it'll likely miss is silly since it has a 30% chance of missing is just silly

That's why relying on an Electric move for Blastoise while it can use Blizzard saying "it'll just miss" is ridiculous since it's more likely to hit than miss and if it does hit the entire plan is ruined. I'd day skip having Dragonite focusing on Blastoise and use someone else who isn't weak to Ice and Water.

Sure there is plenty you can use, I'm saying if the trouble for the guys team is the bulky pokemon, then why not run a versatile team that can nearly take out any of the given pokemon on the enemy team. This way if he's electric type pokemon or grass type gets destroyed early he'll have a fill in. Perhaps it's just my team philosophy but it's more or less the same reason people run hidden power, so they can take out their weaknesses or at least get a decent hit in.

I think 70% accuracy moves are worth fighting against, the risk isn't as big as you'd like to think. And I recall in those games especially it leaned more on missing than actually hitting. That was always my experience.

 

[Com Fox]

I'm saying if the trouble for the guys team is the bulky pokemon, then why not run a versatile team that can nearly take out any of the given pokemon on the enemy team

You were suggesting a Versatile Pokemon not a team. If its a team, I don' t see why Dragonite needs to beat Snorlax and Blastoise if your team is versatile enough to beat them

Perhaps it's just my team philosophy but it's more or less the same reason people run hidden power, so they can take out their weaknesses or at least get a decent hit in.

Most Hidden Power users don't bother against bulky Pokemon as it still wouldn't deal that much damage due to a 60 Power, I only use Hidden Power if my opponent is fragile enough that it'll deal a good blow or if its a 4x weakness.

I think 70% accuracy moves are worth fighting against, the risk isn't as big as you'd like to think. And I recall in those games especially it leaned more on missing than actually hitting. That was always my experience.

It's a game of chance, anything can happen for the player but since it's more likely to hit it's better safe than sorry to risk it.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

You were suggesting a Versatile Pokemon not a team. If its a team, I don;t see why Dragonite needs to worry about Snorlax and Blastoise if your team is versatile enough to beat them

Never said he'd be used to beat snorlax for one. Two I just said if the pokemon you plan to use in beating blastoise doesn't get the job done, then having a fill in is most ideal.

Most Hidden Power users don't bother against bulky Pokemon as it still wouldn't deal that much damage due to a 60 Power, I only use Hidden Power if my opponent is fragile enough that it'll deal a good blow or if its a 4x weakness.

Strange considering in vgc and smogon it's a go to move for those worried about bulky at times, and has stab so...

It's a game of chance, anything can happen for the player but since it's more likely to hit it's better safe than sorry to risk it.

Don't see how, we're talking about 70% acc, and the fact it's 1 in a skill set of 4, so not only does it have a 25% chance of being used it has a 70% chance of hit...seems like the odds favor the player.

 

[Com Fox]

Never said he'd be used to beat snorlax for one. Two I just said if the pokemon you plan to use in beating blastoise doesn't get the job done, then having a fill in is most ideal.

No but I was using it as an example of a versatile team doesn't need 1 versatile Pokemon to handle 5 Pokemon. It's not a versatile team if you're just using 1 Pokemon that might be able to steamroll 5 Pokemon.

Strange considering in vgc and smogon it's a go to move for those worried about bulky at times, and has stab so...

Odd, I hear it's a go to move for type coverage not against bulky Pokemon, and if you are getting stab from Hidden Power, there really is not point in running Hidden Power as there are moves of the same type that does more power.

Don't see how, we're talking about 70% acc, and the fact it's 1 in a skill set of 4, so not only does it have a 25% chance of being used it has a 70% chance of hit...seems like the odds favor the player.

If it;s a wild Pokemon battle I'd agree but its a trainer battle, they aren't going to use non-SE moves if they can use it (especially since it's 4x) especially since this is the Super Boss of the game. Trainer battles don't use moves at random.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

No but I was using it as an example of a versatile team doesn't need 1 versatile Pokemon to handle 5 Pokemon. It's not a versatile team if you're just using 1 Pokemon that might be able to steamroll 5 Pokemon.

Never said that, re read my posts, I'm saying that it's good to have each pokemon be versatile, but Dragonite/air is one of the best for the job due to large move pool. I find making it versatile far better than running hyper beam.

Odd, I hear it's a go to move for type coverage not against bulky Pokemon, and if you are getting stab from Hidden Power, there really is not point in running Hidden Power as there are moves of the same type that does more power.

Not if you're coverage is for each of your pokemon to be a sweeper or have setup for a sweeper, then you want something that allows it to survive any encounter. You tell me what moves will help a fire type defeat a water type other than hidden power grass.

If it;s a wild Pokemon battle I'd agree but its a trainer battle, they aren't going to use non-SE moves if they can use it (especially since it's 4x) especially since this is the Super Boss of the game. Trainer battles don't use moves at random.

Sure they do, I've played the game as long as you if not longer, each time it never fails, the trainer either does a stat changer, weather set up at the start of a battle. So unless the game is programmed to have some if else statement that says "if dragon is played use blizzard, if grass is played use blizzard, or else sub in and use blizzard"

 

[Com Fox]

Never said that, re read my posts, I'm saying that it's good to have each pokemon be versatile, but Dragonite/air is one of the best for the job due to large move pool. I find making it versatile far better than running hyper beam.

Hyper Beam wouldn't be its only move, I'm just saying using Electric moves instead for Blastoise would be massively dangerous, especially since Hyper Beam can take care of 4 of Reds Pokemon.

You tell me what moves will help a fire type defeat a water type other than hidden power grass.

I never hear much on Fire types knowing HP: Grass at all since Grass is an awful offensive type especially since Sun teams prefer Solar Beam anyway. Most people would switch out instead of fight with HP: Grass.

Even still, you're telling me a SE HP can take down Pokemon like Walrein or Unaware stallers (except Quagsire since it can't take 4x Grass damage). Most players use moves with more power as Stallers can just heal and defense buff making Hidden Power useless. Hidden Power is only used for type coverage against Pokemon that actually can't take SE hits or 4x hits. No point using HP if the opposing Pokemon can take it.

Sure they do, I've played the game as long as you if not longer, each time it never fails, the trainer either does a stat changer, weather set up at the start of a battle. So unless the game is programmed to have some if else statement that says "if dragon is played use blizzard, if grass is played use blizzard, or else sub in and use blizzard"

Since I only started playing in 2001, sure you might have a whole 3 years more experience but in a trainer battle I've never seen an opponent use something else other than use a 4x move when given to them why wouldn't they. Trainers are actually smarter especially bosses as they have higher trainer A.I than normal trainers. Especially since if you look at Blastoise moveset, it's either 2 NE moves which trainers barely ever use or Rain Dance which I doubt it'll use if a Dragon type shows up that's weak to Blizzard.

 

[Obelisk]

Okay, where did this thread even go?

 

[Com Fox]

Okay, where did this thread even go?

I think this is the 3rd time @LMSCorvetteGT2 and I are at it with Pokemon discussion

 

[Obelisk]

I think this is the 3rd time @LMSCorvetteGT2 and I are at it with Pokemon discussion

Yeah, and you two ignored a passing comment I made twice.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Hyper Beam wouldn't be its only move, I'm just saying using Electric moves instead for Blastoise would be massively dangerous, especially since Hyper Beam can take care of 4 of Reds Pokemon.

...no one is saying the electric moves would be the only moves either, a dragon move like outrage is just as powerful in out-scale as hyperbeam, and you get 2-3 successions of it before a confusion. And even then you have a highly likely chance of using it with success under the confusion. Thunderpunch has a 75 or 80 in power which is pretty significant since the only other move that outdoes that is zap cannon (50% acc) and thunder (70%). With dragonite always getting priority you have a good shot at taking out blastoise in a ohko if you actually opt to train to 70+. Which has always been recommend in those games.

I never hear much on Fire types knowing HP: Grass at all since Grass is an awful offensive type especially since Sun teams prefer Solar Beam anyway. Most people would switch out instead of fight with HP: Grass.

Even still, you're telling me a SE HP can take down Pokemon like Walrein or Unaware stallers (except Quagsire since it can't take 4x Grass damage). Most players use moves with more power as Stallers can just heal and defense buff making Hidden Power useless. Hidden Power is only used for type coverage againstPokemon that actually can't take SE hits. No point using HP if the opposing Pokemon can

Plenty of people say run it on the off chance you fight an unfavorable team. Also who is talking about Sun teams? Don't bother answering that, the point is two different styles of play being advised to someone. In the end it's up to them what they want. I've given my suggestion and that's all I wanted. Some obviously agree with me and others with you that's that. No reason to go on.

Since I only started playing in 2001, sure you might have a whole 3 years more experience but in a trainer battle I've never seen an opponent use something else other than use a 4x move when given to them why wouldn't they. Trainers are actually smarter especially bosses as they have higher trainer A.I than normal trainers. Especially since if you look at Blastoise moveset, it's either 2 NE moves which trainers barely ever use or Rain Dance which I doubt it'll use if a Dragon type shows up that's weak to Blizzard.

No they really don't they're programmed the same way, the code may be more stringent, but if you actually look into it, they don't have a great A.I. like you think, it's a pretty straight forward code especially in the earlier games. As I said unless the game code specifically says for the game to fight that way, then I could see your point but even I playing against the elite four yesterday on one of the games didn't get a 4x move against me when I baited a type disadvantage not in my favor. Anyways this is my style of play and if the user wants me to go in more depth I can and you can do the same for your style.

Yeah, and you two ignored a passing comment I made twice.

no I saw it, can't help you cause I just finished the story mode yesterday/today.

 

[Obelisk]

I didn't mean I needed help; I wanted to know if you lot wanted to watch videos I made offline.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I didn't mean I needed help; I wanted to know if you lot wanted to watch videos I made offline.

Oh sure, that'd be cool, just post them up on that one thing people use here and then link me.

 

[Obelisk]

Okay, just flipped through this page and the last.

I'm saying dragonite can be used to sweep though...

Realistically speaking, a lot of healing items, knowledge of what types are physical/special and the appropriate set-up moves are what you need for a sweep with Dragonite. I.E. Electric was all Special and Normal was all Physical.

With Blastoise and Snorlax no, if Hyper Beam (and in the case of Blastoise, Electric moves since they'd just 2HKO) can't cut through them no point on using any other move especially since Blastoise uses Blizzard.

Hyper Beam is the move that does the best damage with Dragonite and you can counter the recharge if it KOs by switching.

Both of those Pokemon are special walls. Electric won't do jack on either of them, especially with Snorlax's 160-something base HP and 110 Sp. Def. You definitely don't want to have Dragonite out on a SE move, even if it's 70% odds of hitting. The AI can and will go for that 4x SE.

Sure there is plenty you can use, I'm saying if the trouble for the guys team is the bulky pokemon, then why not run a versatile team that can nearly take out any of the given pokemon on the enemy team. This way if his electric type pokemon or grass type gets destroyed early he'll have a fill in. Perhaps it's just my team philosophy but it's more or less the same reason people run hidden power, so they can take out their weaknesses or at least get a decent hit in.

I think 70% accuracy moves are worth fighting against, the risk isn't as big as you'd like to think. And I recall in those games especially it leaned more on missing than actually hitting. That was always my experience.

People run Hidden Power for coverage mostly. Team compositon really is important, though! You will need switch-ins as well, on the off chance Red hits you with a crit.

You were suggesting a Versatile Pokemon not a team. If its a team, I don' t see why Dragonite needs to beat Snorlax and Blastoise if your team is versatile enough to beat them.


Most Hidden Power users don't bother against bulky Pokemon as it still wouldn't deal that much damage due to a 60 Power, I only use Hidden Power if my opponent is fragile enough that it'll deal a good blow or if its a 4x weakness.


It's a game of chance, anything can happen for the player but since it's more likely to hit it's better safe than sorry to risk it.

If anything, Dragonite could be a counter to Charizard if Red carries that in Silver.

Never said he'd be used to beat snorlax for one. Two I just said if the pokemon you plan to use in beating blastoise doesn't get the job done, then having a fill in is most ideal.

Strange considering in vgc and smogon it's a go to move for those worried about bulky at times, and has stab so...

Hidden Power definitely serves a role in competitive. But unless you know its type on a particular Pokemon, it's a moot point offline.

If it;s a wild Pokemon battle I'd agree but its a trainer battle, they aren't going to use non-SE moves if they can use it (especially since it's 4x) especially since this is the Super Boss of the game. Trainer battles don't use moves at random.

The AI in RBY and GSC is programmed to go for SE first if possible. That did result in some weirdness where Agility was spammed endlessly but...yeah.

You tell me what moves will help a fire type defeat a water type other than hidden power grass.

Hidden Power Electric.



I'm just trying to catch up to you two. Arceus be dammed.

@LMSCorvetteGT2 Can I suggest a moveset for Dragonite?

 

[Com Fox]

With dragonite always getting priority you have a good shot at taking out blastoise in a ohko if you actually opt to train to 70+. Which has always been recommend in those games.

Like @Obelisk said, you aint OHKO something with good Sp. Def with a Special Non-STABE Electric move on a Pokemon who stats favour Physical attack. Unless a Critical happens and that's less likely than Blizzard missing.

Plenty of people say run it on the off chance you fight an unfavorable team. Also who is talking about Sun teams?

Sun teams are mostly Fire types.

Don't bother answering that,

Oops

No reason to go on.

True

No they really don't they're programmed the same way, the code may be more stringent, but if you actually look into it, they don't have a great A.I. like you think, it's a pretty straight forward code especially in the earlier games. As I said unless the game code specifically says for the game to fight that way, then I could see your point but even I playing against the elite four yesterday on one of the games didn't get a 4x move against me when I baited a type disadvantage not in my favor. Anyways this is my style of play and if the user wants me to go in more depth I can and you can do the same for your style.

Depends if the A.I was going for something better, I know against Staller Pokemon, the A.I will tend to set up first then go out an attack however this is Gen II and like what @Obelisk said:

The AI in RBY and GSC is programmed to go for SE first if possible. That did result in some weirdness where Agility was spammed endlessly but...yeah.

Yeah, and you two ignored a passing comment I made twice.

Couldn't really think of much to say instead of a typical "Yeah, cool" so I didn't relly know hot to approach it sorry.

 

[Obelisk]

Couldn't really think of much to say instead of a typical "Yeah, cool" so I didn't relly know hot to approach it sorry.

No worries! I mean, it was kind of abrupt and out of context anyways.

Also, he's spot on about the Electric move not OHKOing except on a crit. The thing is, Dragonite is Physical oriented. You'd be better off running T-Punch on Alakazam (did it even learn that in Gen 2?)

 

[Com Fox]

No worries! I mean, it was kind of abrupt and out of context anyways.

Also, he's spot on about the Electric move not OHKOing except on a crit. The thing is, Dragonite is Physical oriented. You'd be better off running T-Punch on Alakazam (did it even learn that in Gen 2?)

Even still can't Alakazam know Thunderbolt?

 

[Obelisk]

Even still can't Alakazam know Thunderbolt?

It does not get Thunderbolt in Gen 2.

 

[Com Fox]

Oh right, did a quick search and Alakazam can learn it.

However the problem is that you need a friend or another console to get said Alakazam since it's a trade Evolution.

 

[Obelisk]

Oh right, did a quick search and Alakazam can learn it.

However the problem is that you need a friend or another console to get said Alakazam since it's a trade Evolution.

I'm a little confused. In Gen 2, it can't learn Thunderbolt. Did it learn it in 1?

I checked Bulbapedia.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

No worries! I mean, it was kind of abrupt and out of context anyways.

Also, he's spot on about the Electric move not OHKOing except on a crit. The thing is, Dragonite is Physical oriented. You'd be better off running T-Punch on Alakazam (did it even learn that in Gen 2?)

T-punch is physical though, which is why it's always been the go to move for electric based over that of thunder. We all know it wont be very likely to crit.

Also hidden power can be used offline with much success, I've ran the same gengar with hidden power fire since FR/LG to now (well when I trade it over to this gen).

As for dragonite moveset, I have plenty of them, I've ran dragonite by default on any game that allows for dratini to be caught and set up a move pool accordingly.

Oh right, did a quick search and Alakazam can learn it.

However the problem is that you need a friend or another console to get said Alakazam since it's a trade Evolution.

Link cause @Obelisk is correct. It can only learn t-punch and zap cannon.

 

[Obelisk]

T-punch is physical though, which is why it's always been the go to move for electric based over that of thunder. We all know it wont be very likely to crit.

Er, dude. We're talking about Gen 2 mechanics. All Electric-type moves were Special attacks until Gen 4.

 

[Com Fox]

I'm a little confused. In Gen 2, it can't learn Thunderbolt. Did it learn it in 1?

I checked Bulbapedia.

Was talking about Thunderpunch like you said before, sorry needed to be specific.

T-punch is physical though, which is why it's always been the go to move for electric based over that of thunder. We all know it wont be very likely to crit.

Gen I - III Physical/Special was determined by type. Electric moves were all Special.

Also hidden power can be used offline with much success, I've ran the same gengar with hidden power fire since FR/LG to now (well when I trade it over to this gen).

It can be used to great success my starter Thyplosion does wonders with its HP: Water, however I don't bother using it on bulkier Pokemon even if it is SE because no STAB doesn't make any powerful to deal damage on the tanks. HP is for Pokemon that don't like SE moves.

 

[Obelisk]

HP is for Pokemon that don't like SE moves.

Case in point, Kartana vs HP Fire. Can't handle even a stiff breeze and you slap it with a 4x move...and it just keels over.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Er, dude. We're talking about Gen 2 mechanics. All Electric-type moves were Special attacks until Gen 4.

My mistake, sorry I forgot. I'm not the only one that has forgotten gen 2 stuff that I haven't played in nearly fifteen years.

 

[Obelisk]

My mistake, sorry I forgot. I'm not the only one that has forgotten gen 2 stuff that I haven't played in nearly fifteen years.

No worries. It slips my mind from time to time.