Political Correctness

[TexRex]

Or those who are legitimately offended but are afraid to speak up because they'll be mocked and ridiculed if they dare speak up.

To your mind, why would someone legitimately be offended by it? It's not an assertion that one is obligated to observe something they'd otherwise not, but a gesture of well-wishing indicating that one hopes another derives enjoyment during the holiday season whether they observe a specific holiday or not.

For that matter...to your mind, who would legitimately be offended by it? It's referred to as the holiday season because a number of holidays are observed during it, whether the individual to whom the well-wishing gesture is offered observes any or not.

In addition, I consistently offer gestures of "good morning" (alternatively "good afternoon", "good afternoon", "good evening" and "good night" as dictated by the time of day)--even when I'm not in a particularly good mood (I'd even say I do so especially during those times)--because it actually feels good to do so.

Which seems rather odd since it's usually an "accepting" person doing the mocking and ridiculing.

Source?

 

[Northstar]

For that matter...to your mind, who would legitimately be offended by it?

Well, apart from the obvious one of Atheists. I could certainly see people with depression having issues with it. Oh, you don't have anyone to spend the holidays with? Here, let me cram that fact down your throat!

In addition, I consistently offer gestures of "good morning" (alternatively "good afternoon", "good afternoon", "good evening" and "good night" as dictated by the time of day)--even when I'm not in a particularly good mood (I'd even say I do so especially during those times)--because it actually feels good to do so.

The difference is, everyone experiences mornings, afternoon's and nights.

Source?

You are my source (unless you're not actually an accepting person).

It is, but it also isn't. I don't feel any sort of obligation to be respectful of others beyond what is innate to me.

Want to wish someone a "Merry Christmas"? Great! If someone wishes me one, I reciprocate verbatim (or nearly, as dictated by it being a reply). And because it's a well-meant gesture, I really don't accept that there is anyone intolerant of it.

To decry the broader "Happy Holidays", however, is a dick move plain and simple. It isn't offered to not hurt feelings; it's offered to be respectful.


It's still a kindness, and anyone who resents it because they're not observing a holiday is likely not happy either.

Granted, every post you make is mocking an ridiculing, so why should this topic be any different?

 

[Dobermann92]

It is good to see that there are people left in the world who are close to the political center nowadays

I'm not against Merry Christmas, if you want to say it then say it. I would prefer Happy Holidays myself for obvious reasons. It isn't about political correctness, unless you count religions as a political entity or term. (They are in for example Iran, but that is an example I wouldn't follow).
I have the right to say it no matter how offended you by saying it, because that won't affect your holidays or celebration in any way.

And if you celebrate no holidays you can tell me and I'll remember it next time not to say anything like that

 

[UKMikey]

Well, apart from the obvious one of Atheists. I could certainly see people with depression having issues with it. Oh, you don't have anyone to spend the holidays with? Here, let me cram that fact down your throat!

Atheists... yeah, right. Like we give a ****.

As for the depressed and lonely I should think they'd have more of a problem with Valentine's Day.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Well, apart from the obvious one of Atheists. I could certainly see people with depression having issues with it. Oh, you don't have anyone to spend the holidays with? Here, let me cram that fact down your throat!

Atheist depressive here... who sees no functional difference between Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, Saturnalia Salutations or Happy Hannukah. Loneliness issues can be "triggered" (loaded word used in the old-fashioned context) by pretty much anything, anytime.

 

[Northstar]

Atheists... yeah, right. Like we give a ****.

Wow, how accepting of you!

As for the depressed and lonely I should think they'd have more of a problem with Valentine's Day.

I'd imagine depressed and lonely people can feel that way multiple times during the year.

who sees no functional difference between Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, Saturnalia Salutations or Happy Hannukah.

That's been the point I've been trying to get across. If you have a problem with "Merry Christmas", you should also have a problem with "Happy Holidays".

 

[UKMikey]

Wow, how accepting of you!

I'm under no obligation to accept statements which sound like unproven nonsense. Can you back this up?

That's been the point I've been trying to get across. If you have a problem with "Merry Christmas", you should also have a problem with "Happy Holidays".

Who honestly has a problem with "Merry Christmas?"

 

[G.T.Ace]

It is good to see that there are people left in the world who are close to the political center nowadays

There's no political center, that term is horseshoe-theory bull.

As for the depressed and lonely I should think they'd have more of a problem with Valentine's Day.

Nah, Christmas is notorious for that.

Who honestly has a problem with " Merry Christmas?"

No one, only people who are offended are the ones crying when it's not used.

 

[UKMikey]

Nah, Christmas is notorious for that.

I should have done my research.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/on-...-tweets-lonely-and-aggrieved-missives-1967665

 

[Northstar]

I'm under no obligation to accept statements which sound like unproven nonsense. Can you back this up?

You literally just said you don't care what an Atheist thinks on the matter. What's there to back up?

 

[UKMikey]

You literally just said you don't care what an Atheist thinks on the matter. What's there to back up?

Nope.

I was speaking as an atheist and saying we don't give a **** about whether someone says "Merry Christmas", "Happy Holidays" or "Swinging Solstice".

 

[G.T.Ace]

I should have done my research.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/on-...-tweets-lonely-and-aggrieved-missives-1967665

You literally just said you don't care what an Atheist thinks on the matter. What's there to back up?

Get a grip, what kind of strawman do you try to force here?
The wide majority of atheists won't give a flying 🤬.

 

[Northstar]

Nope.

I was speaking as an atheist and saying we don't give a **** about whether someone says "Merry Christmas", "Happy Holidays" or "Swinging Solstice".

Gotcha, apologies for the misunderstanding.

 

[UKMikey]

Gotcha, apologies for the misunderstanding.

Sorry for the misguided heat, looks like we're on the same side of this argument.

 

[McLaren]

No one, only people who are offended are the ones crying when it's not used.

Pretty sure it's both sides.

WalMart doesn't use it, criticized by the religious.

In 2005, Walmart was criticized by the Catholic League for avoiding the word "Christmas" in any of their marketing efforts.[9] The company had downplayed the term "Christmas" in much of its advertising for several years.[76] This caused some backlash among the public, prompting some groups to pass around petitions and threaten boycotts against the company, as well as several other prominent retailers that practiced similar obscurations of the holiday.[9] In 2006, in response to the public outcry, Wal-Mart announced that they were amending their policy and would be using "Christmas" rather than "holiday". Among the changes, they noted that the former "Holiday Shop" would become the "Christmas Shop", and that there would be a "countin' down the days to Christmas" feature.[9]

WalMart uses it, is apparently not respectful of other holidays according to competitors.

When it was revealed in November 2006 that Wal-Mart would be using the term "Christmas" in their advertising campaign, an article about the issue initiated by USA Today pointed out that Best Buy Corporation would be among the retailers that would not be using "Christmas" at all in their advertising that year. Dawn Bryant, a Best Buy spokeswoman, stated: "We are going to continue to use the term holiday because there are several holidays throughout that time period, and we certainly need to be respectful of all of them."[79][80] The AFA launched a campaign against Best Buy's policy.[81] In reaction to the same policy, the Catholic League placed Best Buy on its 2006 Christmas Watch List.[82]

Chase criticized for taking down a Christmas tree b/c it wasn't company supplied with a following statement that decorations must be comfortable with everyone.

On 24 November 2010, the branch manager of Chase Bank in Southlake, Texas told Antonio Morales that a Christmas tree he had donated to the branch had to be taken down per JPMorgan Chase's policy to use only decorations supplied by the company. Bank spokesperson Greg Hassell stated that the company-provided decorations are designed to be "something everyone is comfortable with, regardless of how they celebrate the season."[90]

People complain about the word "Christmas" on 2 signs, and is removed. Mayor forces the word to be restored.

In November 2010, the word "Christmas" on two signs at Philadelphia's Christmas Village was removed by the organizers after complaints, but restored three days later after the mayor intervened.[92]

 

[G.T.Ace]

Of course you can have idiots on both sides, but the majority of dramas usually come from conservative religious people.
Just remember Starbucks and all the right-wing idiots trying to push a "war on Christmas" agenda.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If you have a problem with "Merry Christmas", you should also have a problem with "Happy Holidays".

Perhaps I should have referred to people who are offended by "Merry Christmas!" but aren't offended by by "Happy Holidays!", people who are offended (for which read any kind of "upset") by all seasonal greetings aren't really suffering from a Politically Correct trigger.

the majority of dramas usually come from conservative religious people.

Source required.

Just remember Starbucks and all the right-wing idiots trying to push a "war on Christmas" agenda.

There's a good source for the origins of that earlier in the thread. Interesting read.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Source required.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/War_on_Christmas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_controversies

Note that I'm talking about the current situations from the last couple of years.
I'm aware of the times it was used as political instrument from others.

 

[Dobermann92]

There's no political center, that term is horseshoe-theory bull.

What do you mean about that? If you aren't on the left or the right then you are at the center. BTW I'm using this scale:
https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*ScEaMwr8kOaPqqSEKezHTQ.png

 

[G.T.Ace]

What do you mean about that? If you aren't on the left or the right then you are at the center. BTW I'm using this scale:
https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*ScEaMwr8kOaPqqSEKezHTQ.png

You cannot be on neither side of the spectrum, it's impossible. You need to have opinions on things and these will always overlap more with either the left or the right. Complete neutrality is an illusion, it's not possible. I don't want to say you're either this or that, because I don't know you, but you will definitely lean either more left or more right after analyzing your opinions.

Oh and usually people who say they're centrists often lean right, because they're more conservative.

 

[Dobermann92]

You cannot be on neither side of the spectrum, it's impossible. You need to have opinions on things and these will always overlap more with either the left or the right. Complete neutrality is an illusion, it's not possible. I don't want to say you're either this or that, because I don't know you, but you will definitely lean either more left or more right after analyzing your opinions.

Oh and usually people who say they're centrists often lean right, because they're more conservative.

What you are saying is the black and white fallacy. You can have other opinion than the left or the right, like in free speech. Right leaning people usually don't like when somebody is hurting their religion, far-left extremist want to ban free speech. Or about abortion, right leaning people usually want to ban it, left leaning ones want to have it without rules, I'm in the middle point in that issue too, I would allow it but with restrictions. You can be close at the center, but there aren't only two choices.

I'm a classical liberal myself, which is a bit more on the left side of the center point. You can have the center point opinion in at least some of the issues.

 

[G.T.Ace]

What you are saying is the black and white fallacy. You can have other opinion than the left or the right, like in free speech. Right leaning people usually don't like when somebody is hurting their religion, far-left extremist want to ban free speech. You can be close at the center, but there aren't only two choices.

I'm a classical liberal myself, which is a bit more on the left side of the center point. You can have the center point opinion in at least some of the issues.

The far left doesn't want to ban free speech, where are you getting this from?
By the way, your chart is already off, because totalitarianism doesn't work on the left. The extreme left version would be anarchism, which is the opposite. You're accusing me of using a black and white fallacy, while you see things much too naive.
Stalinists and Maoists banned religion for example, yet they were still not left. They also weren't communists even if they called themself that.
Totalitarianism and fascism are both right-wing.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sounds pretty lefty to me.

The Fascist Manifesto of 1919
In 1919, Alceste De Ambris and Futurist movement leader Filippo Tommaso Marinetti created The Manifesto of the Italian Fasci of Combat (the Fascist Manifesto).[118] The Manifesto was presented on 6 June 1919 in the Fascist newspaper Il Popolo d'Italia. The Manifesto supported the creation of universal suffrage for both men and women(the latter being realized only partly in late 1925, with all opposition parties banned or disbanded);[119] proportional representation on a regional basis; government representation through a corporatist system of "National Councils" of experts, selected from professionals and tradespeople, elected to represent and hold legislative power over their respective areas, including labour, industry, transportation, public health, communications, etc.; and the abolition of the Italian Senate.[120] The Manifesto supported the creation of an eight-hour work day for all workers, a minimum wage, worker representation in industrial management, equal confidence in labour unions as in industrial executives and public servants, reorganization of the transportation sector, revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance, reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55, a strong progressive tax on capital, confiscation of the property of religious institutions and abolishment of bishoprics, and revision of military contracts to allow the government to seize 85% of profits.[121] It also called for the fulfillment of expansionist aims in the Balkans and other parts of the Mediterranean,[122] the creation of a short-service national militia to serve defensive duties, nationalization of the armaments industry and a foreign policy designed to be peaceful but also competitive.[123]

 

[G.T.Ace]

This was just an early manifest to sell the word to the people.
Actual fascism is dictated through the fascist doctrine and some very clear rules, including a nationalistic, racial supremacy, the goal to rule over other nations and a leader cult. All of these things are not left.

If you really try to say that fascism is a left-wing ideology you're dense and should stop talking about these issues until you research a bit more or take some politics classes.

EDIT:
Italian Fascism was rooted in Italian nationalism, national syndicalism, revolutionary nationalism, and the desire to restore and expand Italian territories, which Italian Fascists deemed necessary for a nation to assert its superiority and strength and to avoid succumbing to decay.[2] Italian Fascists also claimed that modern Italy is the heir to ancient Rome and its legacy and historically supported the creation of an Italian Empire to provide spazio vitale ("living space") for colonization by Italian settlers and to establish control over the Mediterranean Sea.[3]

Italian Fascism opposed liberalism, especially classical liberalism that Mussolini and Fascist leaders denounced as "the debacle of individualism",[6] but rather than seeking a reactionary restoration of the pre-French Revolutionary world, which it considered to have been flawed, it had a forward-looking direction.[7] It was opposed to Marxist socialism because of its typical opposition to nationalism,[8] but was also opposed to the reactionary conservatism developed by Joseph de Maistre.[9] It believed the success of Italian nationalism required respect for tradition and a clear sense of a shared past among the Italian people, alongside a commitment to a modernised Italy.[10]

While fascism in Italy did not initially espouse the explicit Nordicism and antisemitism inherent to Nazi ideology, racist overtones were present in fascist thought and policies from the beginning of fascist rule of Italy. As Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany grew politically closer in the latter half of the 1930s, Italian laws and policies became explicitly antisemitic, including the passage of the Italian Racial Laws.

I could quote way too much here.

 

[TenEightyOne]

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/War_on_Christmas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_controversies

That RationalWiki page is so full of red flags that a bull destroyed it halfway through my reading of it. Thank goodness.

The better Wiki (with actual references) seems to disprove your point - there seems to be a fair balance of drama across the spectrum.

You cannot be on neither side of the spectrum, it's impossible. You need to have opinions on things and these will always overlap more with either the left or the right.

That doesn't preclude the existence of a centre.

The far left doesn't want to ban free speech, where are you getting this from?

China will be very pleased to hear that. Not that they ever will.

If you really try to say that fascism is a left-wing ideology you're dense...

How respectful.

...and should stop talking about these issues until you research a bit more or take some politics classes.

So far you seem to be at the RationalWiki level with your own assessment of where fascism can fall on the political spectrum.

 

[G.T.Ace]

China will be very pleased to hear that. Not that they ever will.

China is not a left leaning country, so I don't get your point.

How respectful.

He is the one constantly arguing against political correctness, so why should I use it?

So far you seem to be at the RationalWiki level with your own assessment of where fascism can fall on the political spectrum.

It's actually called education. If you want to use a simple spectrum (which I don't always like, but makes sense for this discussion), you have communism or anarchism on the far left and totalitarianism or fascism (although fascism cannot exist without the former) on the right.
This is actually how it's seen in politics. Left-wing fascism, communist-fascism or anarcho-fascism don't exist, because they're oxymorons.
One of the reasons why the horseshoe theory is nonesense, because it puts opposite things on the same level.

Now if you want to argue that the Soviet Union and Stalin etc. were communists: They weren't.
They were as much communists as the Nazis socialists. They might have borrowed some semantics to try to sell their fascism to their people but it's not what they actually lived by. The same can be applied to current nations too, like the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea", which is as democratic as the "German Democratic Republic" was. Names don't mean anything and what classifies as fascism is pretty well defined.
All of its definitions rule out left leaned politics.

 

[mustafur]

So basically you have fused social policy with economic ideology.

It's not how it works.

 

[G.T.Ace]

So basically you have fused social policy with economic ideology.

It's not how it works.

Where did I do this? This is exactly my point.
China mixes socialist economics with capitalism, but seeing how huge for example the wealth gap is and how conservative the country is, it can't be called communist or leftist. They use some left-wing ideas and twist their own horrible political concept out of it, but to be fair, this is how most countries work. Anyway, the way they treat their people, the way their democracy shrinks day by day and the way they act regarding territories makes it clear that they're not a left leaning nation.

 

[Tornado]

If you really try to say that fascism is a left-wing ideology you're dense and should stop talking about these issues until you research a bit more or take some politics classes

It's actually called education

Well thank heavens we all won't just be beating rocks together anymore now that you've showed up.

The far left doesn't want to ban free speech, where are you getting this from?

Not to try and give any information to a guy who has mastered all levels of political understanding, but uptight mothers and the ultra-religious aren't the only ones who feel that others have no right to offend their sensibilities.

 

[McLaren]

Of course you can have idiots on both sides, but the majority of dramas usually come from conservative religious people.
Just remember Starbucks and all the right-wing idiots trying to push a "war on Christmas" agenda.

That's not what you originally said when you claimed only 1 side gets offended, but ok then.