POLL: Should Project Cars 3 have pit stops?

[MagpieRacer]

The underlying physics will not be the same, the have already been quite clear on this, with a locked core temp it will be impossible to let the tyres get to cold or hot (outside of temporary flash heating), that is categorically not just like PC2 or PC1. Wet tracks cool slicks rapidly (carcass and core) and make a huge difference to how they behave, that is gone.


You missed a question!
,

It also totally removes the element of should I stay on slicks and risk it or pit for wets and hope the lost time can be pulled back.

No amount of spin makes that just like PC2 or PC1, and while it may be something you and others are 100% fine with, attempting to sell it as just the same is utterly inaccurate.

I disagree. But as we've already had a very short discussion on this and why we disagree theres no point continuing that argument.

Of course you still have access to your setups, though—aero, brake tuning, weight distribution, ride heights, alignment, springs, dampers, gearing and differential as well as tyre pressures are all there

Project CARS 3, you’ve got multiple layers related to the heat model. Flash, Layer, Tread, and so on. Flash is the elements which touch and grip the track surface, Layer is an intermediate layer for diffusing heat energy, and Tread is the core bulk of tread rubber. All the heating dynamics in Flash and Layer still happen, we just lock temperature from Tread down through the rest of the model. I suppose a simpler way to put it is that the rubber layers influence tyre grip naturally at these time levels:

Flash Layer – What are you doing this instant?
Surface Layer – What were you doing in the last 5s?
Bulk Tread – What were you doing in the last 5m?

The biggest benefit comes from those three rubber layers of varying thickness and how they separate transient behaviour of the rubber from longer term heat effects.

The first, Flash layer, models the individual Setae contact points and is only 30 microns thick. This is where we do all the work-energy heating and you see huge temperature swings here—the heating of Flash layer is a primary tool for shaping our slip curves. We then have a surface layer between 0.5-1.0mm thick for the heat to diffuse though; this reacts more slowly but still pretty quickly.

just to highlight for those who might have missed it and are acting like all tyre heat has been abandoned. @Scaff I get your point obviously around how you feel that's gonna be with locked in core temps, I disagree personally, neither of us will know until we play the game. Sure the build up to optimal core temperature will be different, it's not like the physics have been completely changed by simply locking in an optimal temperature for 1 or the 3 layers of tyre heating. In F1 2019/2020 you can have either surface and carcass simulation or just surface, the phyics don't fundamentally change when you switch between the 2. It feels identical, it alters ever so slightly the build up to the core temperature when both are simulated.

 

[Scaff]

I disagree. But as we've already had a very short discussion on this and why we disagree theres no point continuing that argument.

And I have to leave you posting it as fact unchallenged for what reason exactly?

You are free to continue making the claim and I am free to continue rebutting it, that’s how discussion forums work.

 

[MagpieRacer]

And I have to leave you posting it as fact unchallenged for what reason exactly?

You are free to continue making the claim and I am free to continue rebutting it, that’s how discussion forums work.

Where have I claimed it as fact? I've stated what I believe you've stated what you belive. I'm not sitting here saying you're wrong, you've given an opinion, I've given a differing opinion which I have backed up with reasoning as to why I belive that. Hence discussion. I posted my thoights yesterday which you immediately attacked and told me I was wrong. Pretty poor discussion.

How things are worded make all the difference to how things can be perceived.

 

[Scaff]

Where have I claimed it as fact? I've stated what I believe you've stated what you belive. I'm not sitting here saying you're wrong, you've given an opinion, I've given a differing opinion which I have backed up with reasoning as to why I belive that. Hence discussion. I posted my thoights yesterday which you immediately attacked and told me I was wrong. Pretty poor discussion.

How things are worded make all the difference to how things can be perceived.

“ Just like PC2, just like PC1” A statement of fact and your words, so no I’m not reading something into it that isn’t already present.

It’s not just like PC2 or PC1 however, as SMS have already acknowledged, locking core tyre temp to a permanent optimal temp is not just like either of the previous titles.

You also seem to be mistaking a disagreement on this as you being attacked, and also seem to now be asking that I stop disagreeing with you!

On that last point, it’s simply not going to happen. If you’re going to keep making a claim that I disagree with I see no reason at all you should be able to claim a free pass on that ever being challenged again.

 

[Ak1504]

When was the last time you replayed them? Because a lot of it’s not aged well at all.

Last year but thats not important because i want a new one and always wanted a Shift game with better physics and this is Pcars3.

 

[Scaff]

Last year but thats not important because i want a new one and always wanted a Shift game with better physics and this is Pcars3.

To use one of your own arguments, you’ve already got two, we need innovation and to move on (which is how we got to the two PC titles).

And you’ve still not answered the question.

Which of PC3s competition doesn’t have fuel use, tyre wear or pit stops?

 

[T0MMY3688]

I'm sure there a still Shift fans like me out there.

There sure is, I'm one of them but I don't expect it and want it to happen this way. I always wanted a new SHIFT since WMD for pCARS 1 started but I have grown to enjoy what pCARS has become and would prefer it to stay that way instead of making drastic changes by throwing out features all of the sudden to become Shift again.

 

[Ak1504]

And you’ve still not answered the question.

What question ?

Which of PC3s competition doesn’t have fuel use, tyre wear or pit stops?

? i think i don´t care about Pcars3 competitors... I just want to play it asap

 

[Samus]

Not much you do seem to care about, yet here you are in the middle of a discussion.

 

[Ak1504]

Why should i ? In the end its just a game... Tbh I would not even be sad if SMS would cancel it after this big amount of negative feedback... There are way more important things in life than beeing sad or angry about a video game or developer decisions

 

[MagpieRacer]

“ Just like PC2, just like PC1” A statement of fact and your words, so no I’m not reading something into it that isn’t already present.

It’s not just like PC2 or PC1 however, as SMS have already acknowledged, locking core tyre temp to a permanent optimal temp is not just like either of the previous titles.

You also seem to be mistaking a disagreement on this as you being attacked, and also seem to now be asking that I stop disagreeing with you!

On that last point, it’s simply not going to happen. If you’re going to keep making a claim that I disagree with I see no reason at all you should be able to claim a free pass on that ever being challenged again.

So you disagree that the driving physics will be the same? That's what we're skirting around various points for here yeah?

 

[Scaff]

What question ?

? i think i don´t care about Pcars3 competitors... I just want to play it asap

And yet you have been claiming that a market exists for it?

Or is it that the answer is none? Well unless you are including Grid?

There are way more important things in life than beeing sad or angry about a video game or developer decisions

And yet you have been on the offensive on three different forums defending it?

So you disagree that the driving physics will be the same? That's what we're skirting around various points for here yeah?

I’m not skirting around anything, you can’t lock the core tyre temp to always optimal and say that it will not affect the driving physics.

 

[MagpieRacer]

And yet you have been claiming that a market exists for it?

Or is it that the answer is none? Well unless you are including Grid?


I’m not skirting around anything, you can’t lock the core tyre temp to always optimal and say that it will not affect the driving physics.

I can say that, its my opinion. You can still accurately model tyre behaviour and driving physics without simulating a core tyre temperature, it'll hardly be the first game/sim to not simulate core tyre temperatures..

 

[Ak1504]

And yet you have been on the offensive on three different forums defending it?

Because i find this HUGE drama everywhere very weird and funny at the same time tbh. As i said its just a game. If its not for me then i go on and play something else instead of complaining about it.

 

[gregc]

Because i find this HUGE drama everywhere very weird and funny at the same time tbh. As i said its just a game. If its not for me then i go on and play something else instead of complaining about it.

The point you are continuously either missing or deliberately ignoring is that, in terms of new racing Sims, unless you're happy to only drive GT3 there isn't another game to play on console.

 

[Ak1504]

Theres Pcars2 and imo it does not need a direct successor now in 2020 on the same gen of consoles because it is still a great and not outdated game and because current gen you can´t upgrade the graphics or amount of AI or even the physics because the gen is on its limit already with Pcars2.

Nathan Bell wrote that there will be something on next gen so if you don´t like the direction of Pcars3 just wait for the next gen project from SMS.

 

[Scaff]

I can say that, its my opinion. You can still accurately model tyre behaviour and driving physics without simulating a core tyre temperature, it'll hardly be the first game/sim to not simulate core tyre temperatures..

Not to the same degree of accuracy and that’s the point, it can’t be ‘just like PC2 or PC1”, he’ll enough differences exist between the PC2 and PC1 tyre models to make that impossible.

I’ve already said we don’t know if these changes will be one step forward and two back or two steps forward and one back, but to claim that it will be “just like” the past two titles in the tyre model simply in any true.

Because i find this HUGE drama everywhere very weird and funny at the same time tbh. As i said its just a game. If its not for me then i go on and play something else instead of complaining about it.

And you’re back to expecting people to just shut up rather than discussing it.

Theres Pcars2 and imo it does not need a direct successor now in 2020 on the same gen of consoles because it is still a great and not outdated game and because current gen you can´t upgrade the graphics or amount of AI or even the physics because the gen is on its limit already with Pcars2.

Nathan Bell wrote that there will be something on next gen so if you don´t like the direction of Pcars3 just wait for the next gen project from SMS.

So they will be releasing the new cars and tracks for PC2? If not that argument doesn’t stack up at all. No reason at all exist as to why they could not have made these changes optional, what you don’t seem to be registering is that it’s not change that’s the issue, it’s the fact that it’s limited what choice players have and limited the audience as a result.

Not to mention that it’s been done by lying to that core audience in the lead up to this point.

You also forget who now owns SMS, tell me how that went for Evolution when Outrush flopped on its arse?

 

[MagpieRacer]

You also forget who now owns SMS, tell me how that went for Evolution when Outrush flopped on its arse?

On an unrelated note, save for a couple senior members didn't they just become Codemasters Cheshire who are making Dirt 5?

 

[Ak1504]

No reason at all exist as to why they could not have made these changes optional, what you don’t seem to be registering is that it’s not change that’s the issue, it’s the fact that it’s limited what choice players have and limited the audience as a result.

Thats the decision SMS made. Like it or not. Easy as that. I don´t see any reason to discuss this to death

 

[FrankieStail]

My hope now is that they’ll be influenced by Codemasters splitting dirt in two clearly defined directions and have a separate version of project cars to suit those leaning in a sim or arcade direction.

At least then everyone knows what they’ll be getting and sms won’t have to mislead anyone again who expected the series to be built upon rather have features removed.

 

[Scaff]

On an unrelated note, save for a couple senior members didn't they just become Codemasters Cheshire who are making Dirt 5?

Some did, as far as I’m aware they lost more of the Evolution team than just a couple.

News that has actually turned Dirt 5 from a no into a very interested for me.

Thats the decision SMS made. Like it or not. Easy as that. I don´t see any reason to discuss this to death

You are aware your on a discussion forum, and that you’ve spent your time across three forums doing just that?

Once again the truth seems to be that you don’t want anyone presenting it as a negative and are more than happy discussing it to death.

If this was truly your view you would have posted once in defence and left, that you haven’t shows you are being utterly dishonest with that claim.

 

[Samus]

Thats the decision SMS made. Like it or not. Easy as that. I don´t see any reason to discuss this to death

which begs the question why you're even on a DISCUSSION forum.

What are you expecting people to do here, exactly?

 

[MagpieRacer]

At least we know what the selling point for pCars 4 will be .

 

[02civic]

I will not miss any of the bugs pcars 2 has with pit stops, tires ect

this is a very fair point. it's not as though the pitstops were well done in pc2

 

[Morbid65]

Because i find this HUGE drama everywhere very weird and funny at the same time tbh. As i said its just a game. If its not for me then i go on and play something else instead of complaining about it.

You do realize that the "u guize r jus whinerz" style posts you and others make are just adding to that drama though, yeah?

There may be hostile "sim elitists" out there, but by trying to dismiss every post that isn't positive as complaining you are being just as toxic, if not more so as those posts generally dodge discussing the actual issue and focus more on accusing people of being whiners or whatever.

Thats the decision SMS made. Like it or not. Easy as that. I don´t see any reason to discuss this to death

You don't see a reason to complain, yet you do see a reason to make a bunch of dismissive replies to disappointed racing game enthusiasts telling them to stop complaining?

People can dislike the decision SMS made and share their disappointment in discussion forums. Like it or not. Easy as that.

My hope now is that they’ll be influenced by Codemasters splitting dirt in two clearly defined directions and have a separate version of project cars to suit those leaning in a sim or arcade direction.

At least then everyone knows what they’ll be getting and sms won’t have to mislead anyone again who expected the series to be built upon rather have features removed.

When the news of the upcoming BTCC game was announced and Codemasters acquiring SMS, the first thing I hoped for was a new BTCC game made by SMS with better polish and presentation to match the other Codies racing titles. PC2 already had a significant portion of the BTCC track list, and the TC cars are pretty popular for multiplayer.

Maybe the Project CARS series will go this way and replace Grid, while a revived TOCA Race Driver will continue on where PC2 left off?

 

[Ak1504]

You do realize that the "u guize r jus whinerz" style posts you and others make are just adding to that drama though, yeah?

I would have not written anything more today in these pcars3 threads because i already said everything i wanted to but a certain user asked one question after another so i just answered again and again...


Btw: Great video from Chris Haye in case someone missed it ^^

 

[Veinz]

I would genuinely like to know how the 2 people who voted no can rationalize a decision like this. How can you not even have this as an option?

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

I will miss pitstops but I like the sound of this, it's a game which will play like a sim but without all the fiddling about. You should be able to come home, turn on your PlayStation and jump straight into a race with everything all set and ready to go. Austin Ogonoski had a video which explained this idea much better before the iRacing'ers took down most of his channel. Rushy also said this game will play well on a controller (that was after he left so it's probably true this time).

Most sims are the same so there is no problem with one trying something different, if it works then great. If it doesn't work we have GRID but with 100x the number of circuits which is also fine by me.

 

[killerjimbag]

Because i find this HUGE drama everywhere very weird and funny at the same time tbh. As i said its just a game. If its not for me then i go on and play something else instead of complaining about it.

Yes and SMS will thank you for your money you spent on a game thats not for you. I'm sure nobody would just throw away money.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I would genuinely like to know how the 2 people who voted no can rationalize a decision like this. How can you not even have this as an option?

Because contrary to popular belief there will be people out there who don't care about pitstops and would rather just play a racing game. I have many friends who enjoy playing the F1 games for example but they, due to various time constraints or limited ability, play one shot qualifying and short races with no pitstops. Hard as it may be to believe, there are people out there who would rather not have to worry about it. Not saying that's the case for everyone and of course there are arguments for them being left in or at least optional.

Should it have been optional, probably, but that doesn't mean that this won't appeal to people. Funnily enough those people won't frequent forums based around simulation racing.